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  1. #1
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    Default Pierce oversteer

    I just test drove a Pierce Lance with the TAK-4 IFS. Yes the ride is nice and there is limited bounce. The engine had such a bad oversteer problem that I cannot recommend this thing to our commitee.

    Any fast steering causes the rear end to swing out. I know of two of these things here in my county that have been spun-out. One was on a freeway on-ramp in the dry, the other was on a straight 3 lane main road.

    Has anybody else had this problem? If so is there a cure?

    Pierce says you just have to get used to it. I say BULL! The Spartan IFS chassis drove great and did not have this issue.

    Also I see no adjustments for Caster and Camber. Any long term tire wear issues? Again the Dana IFS in the Spartan is adjustable

    I would like to get a Pierce, but need to address this driving problem.

    Thanks Guys


  2. #2
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    Well if Pierce said there is no problem then it MUST be true!!!! I like grape kool aide.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr
    I just test drove a Pierce Lance with the TAK-4 IFS. Yes the ride is nice and there is limited bounce. The engine had such a bad oversteer problem that I cannot recommend this thing to our commitee.

    Any fast steering causes the rear end to swing out. I know of two of these things here in my county that have been spun-out. One was on a freeway on-ramp in the dry, the other was on a straight 3 lane main road.

    Has anybody else had this problem? If so is there a cure?

    Pierce says you just have to get used to it. I say BULL! The Spartan IFS chassis drove great and did not have this issue.

    Also I see no adjustments for Caster and Camber. Any long term tire wear issues? Again the Dana IFS in the Spartan is adjustable

    I would like to get a Pierce, but need to address this driving problem.

    Thanks Guys

    We have a Lance w/the TAK-4 that we took delivery of last October. I drive it regularly and have not noticed anything like that happening. It's the best handling, nicest riding piece of apparatus that we have.

  4. #4
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr
    I The engine had such a bad oversteer problem that I cannot recommend this thing to our commitee.
    INFIDEL! You will burn in H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS for such heresy!
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  5. #5
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    Exclamation Oversteer???

    We have two Pierce Lance engines with TAK-4 and have no problems! The 2003 has 1300 gallons of water and 1200' of 5in. The 2004 has 1440 gallons of water and 1200' of 5in. Both are enclosed top mount pump panels on single axles. Our dept. responds to accidents on a four lane highway behind our station and we have alot of back roads and we still have had no problems.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a driving issue. Establish a good driver's training class and go over the basics like proper ramp speeds, lane changes, and proper use of the brakes!! Yes, these trucks do drive differently, but what are you driving now?

    We have had no tire wear problems. Why would you want to start wrenching on the front end? When it's set up right, you don't need to adjust anything. Talk with Spartan about the recall they had on their IFS!!

    Good luck with the Spartan.

  6. #6
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    So you're telling me you are oversteering or drifting firetrucks?!?! If this is on a slippery surface some serious driver training needs to be done and on dry pavement?... I simply don't buy it. Something may have happened that felt like oversteer to you, but there's no way I believe there have been firetrucks "looping out" in your county. Our rescue engine has IFS and a Detroit series 60 515hp motor and even completely empty there is no way to oversteer that on dry pavement. Get it on video and post it if you can prove me wrong.

  7. #7
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    Talking Hmmmm... What is really the issue here?

    Sounds to me like a Spartan guy baiting the Pierce guys.

    No bite here.

    I am making a BS call on you!

  8. #8
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter1244
    We have a Lance w/the TAK-4 that we took delivery of last October. I drive it regularly and have not noticed anything like that happening. It's the best handling, nicest riding piece of apparatus that we have.
    No problems here. We have an 02 Enforcer with almost 40k miles on it. Best handling apparatus Ive ever driven. Just put the first set of new tires on it, but the brakes STILL do not need rplacement. We will never again buy a rig without it.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

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  9. #9
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr
    Any fast steering causes the rear end to swing out. I know of two of these things here in my county that have been spun-out. One was on a freeway on-ramp in the dry, the other was on a straight 3 lane main road.
    You honestly expect anyone to believe that the rear end of a full size fire apparatus got so loose that the truck fishtailed enough to "spin-out"? Not just one, but TWO? Yeah, maybe on a sheet of ice at 50 MPH with all 4 (or 8, as the case may be) rear tires bald, but not on drive pavement. There is no way in hell they would remain upright if this happened, so please provide pics of them on their sides so we can see the end result of this alleged treacherous oversteer problem.

    Our 2002 Pierce midmount tower has TAK-4 and there isn't even a HINT of oversteer. Mind you, the truck has a pump and 300 gallon tank with a HUGE whale tail of a rear end loaded with equipment just BEGGING to swing out past the rear axle, yet it doesn't, even at highway speeds or during quick cornering.

    So as I said, please provide further proof of this. Name dept names and provide contacts so we can follow up. If TAK-4 is such a major problem, as you claim, then we should definitely have this info. Otherwise, stop posting your BS (this is at least the second time you've ragged on TAK-4) or LEARN HOW TO DRIVE.

    This isn't about "drinking the Pierce koolaid", this is about making highly unlikely and fully unsubstantiated claims, end of story.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 06-12-2006 at 05:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Default

    Right out of the Oshkosh/Pierce TAK-4 service manual:

    This independent suspension has non-adjustable 4° caster, 0° camber, and 6° kingpin inclination angles. The only adjustable setting is the toe-in.
    Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.

    Since the TAK-4 has 4° POSITIVE caster, your assertion that...

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr (in another thread)
    They have no caster!!! they don't track at highway speeds, they don't return to center when your done making a turn and they oversteer like crazy!
    ...is not only clearly incorrect, but tells me you either have no clue what you're talking about, never test drove the Pierce at all, are a crappy driver, didn't bother to do your research before you ran your mouth OR...all of the above.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 06-12-2006 at 08:06 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default WOW Guys

    Ok I will start by saying that I did not mean to upset anybody, I just wanted to find out if anybody else had felt what I felt during a test drive.

    Sacramento Metro Fire District spun one out on Watt Ave. I spoke to their E-Voc instructor about it and he agreed that they do have a over-steer issue upon counter steering after an evasive manuever.

    Auburn, CA fire department spun theirs out. After these postings I made a phone call to them and found out that it was on a rainy day on a highway on-ramp. I will call that one driver error.

    I should have stated that the front end is hard to steer back to center and felt like it had no caster. Since it has 4 degrees already, I guess that is just the nature of the beast.

    I am test driving a third one of these this week, I will let you know how it goes.

    Yes I do know how to drive. I am a professional race car driver. I have been driving SCCA road racing cars for over twenty years. I also have been driving fire apparatus for 25 years. I know the differance between a race car and a fire truck, so please don't nail me for for thinking a fire truck should handle like a car.

    I had my B/C drive the Lance and he felt the same rear end lean that I did. I did not tell him about it before-hand. He felt it right away.

    So please, keep your chips on your shoulders. I am not trying to knock them off. I understand you guys are loyal to your brands and that is OK.

    I guess the bottom line is that you guys have not had the problems that I felt. So maybe it is a problem in the local spec.

  12. #12
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    Default

    Is the Lance you drove in service or a demo?

  13. #13
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    Default

    The rear end lean could be caused by the rear suspension. If its an air-ride suspension more rear end body role could result. It may be that the apparatus is too top heavy causing it to rear to lean. Has anyone checked the rear suspension to make sure nothing's broke?

    Also a IFS equipped machine is not going to drive the same as a standard I-beam equipped machine. If there is a lack of return to center steering. The oversteer problem is coming from the driver not being familiar with the lack of return to center steering. Since the vehicle is not returning to center either at all or as quick or in a way that the driver is used to the driver is attempting to steer back to center and is overcorrecting.

    I understand that you race cars and have been driving fire apparatus for 25yrs but I suspect that every vehicle you drive has a built in return to center that you are used to and familiar with.

  14. #14
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    The "No Return to Center" is a little tricky to get used to. When the trucks are new it does also seem to me to have an over steer mostly at highway speeds. It is difficult to recover after casually changing lanes. Very touchy at highway speed.

  15. #15
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    "Yes,I drive race cars".Having worked around race cars for a few years,I've NEVER seen a truck that handles like a race car. EVER! Anybody that knows me very well knows I'm not a Koolaide drinker.That being said,a lot of Fire apparatus put quite a lot of weight on a front axle.Many factors affect steering geometry including ladder/bucket overhang,accessories,tank/pump size and type/configuration of the front axle assembly.In what few IFS rigs I've driven,I haven't noticed any of the conditions you mention.No, the wheel doesn't spin back to center.But it returns smoothly and easily after making a turn.Now I don't drive race cars a lot,even though I've set up a bunch over the last twenty years.But I've driven trucks for a looong time and they all seem to be pretty predictable in a given scenerio.I wouldn't put our Spartan into a 90*hairpin at 55 nor would I try it with any Fire apparatus.The chauffer is ultimately responsible for getting the rig to the destination safely.So I guess you've got to buy/drive vehicles that YOU"RE comfortable with. T.C.

  16. #16
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    Ok, I drove another Pierce. This one belongs to Sacramento City. I did not have the oversteer problem that the Sac Metro engines do. So I suspect a spec problem not a problem with the Pierce. The returning to center is something to get used to.

    Thanks for your info guys.

  17. #17
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    I have driven approximately 20 different Pierce's with TAK-4 ranging from aerials to pumpers and have never noticed anything out of the usual in the handling. They were all consistant in thier reaction.

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