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  1. #1
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    Angry Drafting from Open Sources

    Hi All,

    I have been given an assignment from Management to think of how to draft water from open sources. However, the challenge comes in the form of using existing equipment from our modified small pump ladder (i.e. fire engine). This small pump ladder does not have the space to carry hard suction hoses. I figured that there must be some modification either to the pump or to soft suction hoses.

    Anybody with any bright ideas?

    Rgds,
    Fab


  2. #2
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    None that i have heard of. Surely there would be space to put some brackets on top of the truck or under the main tray?
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

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    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    You should seriously reconsider your suction hose options,convince the higher ups that you need some soft suction hose and a floating strainer! Are you trying to move big water or just get by?

    What does your engine consist of?

    There is something called the Turbo Draft that you hook hoses up to it and put it in the water, I've not seen it work but I saw/read about it in the fire mags.BE SAFE

  4. #4
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dday05
    You should seriously reconsider your suction hose options,convince the higher ups that you need some soft suction hose and a floating strainer! Are you trying to move big water or just get by?
    I'm pretty sure you can't draft though soft suction hose! Its been awhile since I've been on the engine, but...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabbytan
    Hi All,

    I have been given an assignment from Management to think of how to draft water from open sources. However, the challenge comes in the form of using existing equipment from our modified small pump ladder (i.e. fire engine). This small pump ladder does not have the space to carry hard suction hoses. I figured that there must be some modification either to the pump or to soft suction hoses.

    Anybody with any bright ideas?

    Rgds,
    Fab
    By the wording in your post I take it your from across the pond.....

    Sometimes you just have to use the right tools for the job. In this case it is HARD Suction hose. The new light weight stuff is nice, it has a couple of gotchya's with the couplings loosening up but periodic checks will fix it.

    The mentioned Turbo draft will allow you to get water further away from the truck but it would mean buying more equipment, which you stated you have to use existing equipment. It would also depend on you pump capacity and water available to start that whole operation. You need to supply water to the device to start pushing it back at you. Depending on how far away you are and the size hose you are using it could be 100's of gallons of water needed to start.

    The whole deal with soft suction is that you will collapse the hose before you do damage to the water system supplying you. That being said, it is pretty hard to create a vacuum in a hose that will collapse by design.

    How many gallons per minute is your pump rated at? That would give a better idea on the options available or that you need.

  6. #6
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    This is really simple. If you don't have hard suction, you are not going to draft anything.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #7
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    I have never heard of using soft hose for drafting. For years my department depended on drafting from small streams and ponds. I would say that you definately need to get some hard suction hose. Find a place to put it get get a stariner floaters are nice but flat bottom and barrel work to. Alway be sure that you have a deep enough location to draft from. Also you may want to consider dry hydrants these can make things much easier. Good luck!!!
    Stay Safe and live long

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05
    You should seriously reconsider your suction hose options,convince the higher ups that you need some soft suction hose and a floating strainer! Are you trying to move big water or just get by?
    I know what you was talking about here, he is talking about hard suction hose, but it's the newer stuff, that is a softer hard suction that is more flexible than the hard suction of yesteryear when it took 5 guys just to make a small little bend in it to make a connection to a dry hydrant or what not! but like he said suction hose, and a floating strainer is a must when drafting from a lake or any other open water source.

    The only bad thing I have heard with turbo drafts is if you are out of water to begin with aren't you kind of S.O.L. then to even get water again?

    If you are from the US check with your state, in our state the division of forestry has a grant that will help us buy and install dry hydrant's so you might check on that also.

  9. #9
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    You can "draft" with soft sleeve hose. It involves using an eductor which has a water jet inside it that picks up water. There is a large hose from the eductor to the pump intake and a smaller hose from the pump discharge back to the eductor. The ones we have are 1.5" x 1" so not much use other than refilling the tank. But larger ones do exist.

    Birken

  10. #10
    Forum Member Rescue2947's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabbytan
    Hi All,

    I have been given an assignment from Management to think of how to draft water from open sources. However, the challenge comes in the form of using existing equipment from our modified small pump ladder (i.e. fire engine). This small pump ladder does not have the space to carry hard suction hoses. I figured that there must be some modification either to the pump or to soft suction hoses.

    Anybody with any bright ideas?

    Rgds,
    Fab
    The only thing I can think of, is making a jet syphon. We use jet syphon to push water from one porta tank to another without drafting so we can have multiple porta tanks and tankers dumping water nonstop. You May be able to use a 1.5" pushing water into a 2.5" . Although your flow isnt going to be the same as a hard suction line diameter wise. This way you can get a 2.5" inch flow in to your Engine from using a 1.5" line flowing. So it would be slow but you could draft this way.

    The only problem would be having sombody that could weld up the jet syphon to accomidate only using 1.5" and 2.5" hose lines. It really wouldnt be that hard or the syphon wouldnt be that big either and could fit into a small compartment. It would almost be the same size as a gated Y. You may also might be able to use a gated Y if you had the right adapters to push water in from one side with a 1.5 line and pulling water in from the other side of the gated Y.

    If you need a better explaination let me know I'll try to draw up a figure for you to look at.

    This is about the only way to so call Draft with out using any type of hard hose, because drafting as you know sucks, and when you get suction, hoses collapse. With this Jet syphon style you are more less just pushing water into a open intake pretty much doing the same job.

    Either way it depends on what kind of hoses the engine carries you might be able to do the same thing with portable water main using a 2.5" in the same manor. It also depends on how far, and how high your trying to get water from the source.
    Last edited by Rescue2947; 06-11-2006 at 11:26 AM.
    Pere Marquette Fire Department
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  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    The three concepts everyone has mentioned (Turbo Draft, Eductor, and Jet Siphon), are all the same principle with different brand names attached. Here is a link to illustrate the concept:

    http://www.turbodraft.net/html/body_apps.html

    The downsides as mentioned are:

    1. You do need another tool
    2. You will need to have anywhere from a few dozen, to a few hundred gallons in your tank to get the process started and sustained
    3. If you run dry at any point, you are done
    4. You will not gain very much, if any, elevation with this system alone (i.e. a couple of feet to the intake at best)

    The only other way to do it would involve using a portable or floating pump at the water source to pump back to the engine, but if you don't have room for even a length of hard suction hose, you definitely won't have room for another portable pump.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  12. #12
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    This small pump ladder does not have the space to carry hard suction hoses

    Never say never

    If memory serves me right, I've seen Chicago FD Engines that had hard suction mounted left-to-right...on top of the cab. Must've been lengths cut to just under 8' wide to fit up there.

    Our drafting engine has a 30' preconnected (squirrel tail) flexible lightweight hard suction and another 30' length coiled up on top of the hose bed cover...pain in the butt to deploy, but rare we need it.

    Anyway, with today's lightweight, flexible hard suctions I have a hard time believing they couldn't be strapped somewhere on the roof or even to the side of an aerial if you absolutely, positively need to draft.

    What has become common in my area is instead of the traditional three-lengths on the left side of the truck, departments keep a 10' length in the middle tray, and a 20' length of flexible suction with the strainer attached that sits in the bottom and top trays. Usually the 20' is all they need to deploy.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Back home we use 3 inch, 4 inch or 6 inch hard suction, depending on which truck. The Engine carries the 3 and 6, while the Tanker has the 4 inch. The Engine also carries a home made float dock, which works exactly as it sounds. Basically it has to sealed "floats" that carry a slightly modified suction strainer. The beauty there is of course, that if floats, so there is no picking up of gravel and other bottom debris that pumps just oooohhhh so love.

    Unfortunately, I dont have any pictures of the set up - but might be able to get some in a short while.

    All the hard suction is in 10 foot lengths for the 3 and 6 inch. The 4 inch stuff is roughly 15 feet per section, and is held by brackets along each side of the tank. (the truck was originally a 3k gal milk truck - '82 Western Star) This truck also carries x3-1000 gal port-a-tanks, with 4 foot long, 6 inch hard suction connectors for each tank.
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  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    I'm pretty sure you can't draft though soft suction hose! Its been awhile since I've been on the engine, but...
    RFDACM

    The suction hose I was talking about, is called lightweight suction hose,and from where I'm from we call it soft suction hose and yes it can be used for drafting operations we do it all the time. The (soft suction) hose can't be used on a fire plug but it can be used on a dry hydrant or put in a pond with a strainer on the end of it for drafting operations!

    Go to www.kochek.com and click on products and then suction hose and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Just a side note I found the price of the Turbo Draft,and in my opinion you can buy 2 pieces of suction and a floating strainer for half the $ of the Turbo Draft.BE SAFE
    Last edited by dday05; 06-12-2006 at 06:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    Cool What I'd use.......

    Like was mentioned before, there is a device that would help your Department. It is called an Ejector....... in the Forest Service they call it a Wildland Eductor.
    How it works in on the venturi theory........ we all have foam capabilities, so I won't beat that dead horse.
    Performance wise, they are great. I have seen as much as double the flow rate gained by using one...... example: with an 1" inlet and 1 1/2" outlet flowing 200 psi, 34 gpm are coming in, 43 gpm are picked-up giving you 77 gpm flow at a max. of 70' from the pump.
    When the 1 1/2" inlet and 2 1/2" outlet are used with the 2 1/2" suction a max. of 200 psi produces 107 gpm, while 133 gpm is picked-up producing 240 gpm to the pump at a max. of 70' away.........

    The devices are fairly inexpensive for the flows available the 1" w/ 1 1/2" discharge and 1 1/2" suction is around $175 and the strainer is around $59

    The 1 1/2" inlet w/ 2 1/2" discharge and 2 1/2" suction is around $325 and the strainer is around $191.

    Hope this helps, these devices are available from Cascade Fire Equipment their website is: casadefire.com

    Be cool, and be safe.............
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