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    OK, I'll bite. ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD
    OK, I'll bite. ?
    Looks like a very aggressive attack to me. Nice job!

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    The only thing one might consider tactics wise is they entered the building standing up...and the nozzle man had that thing on a wide fog patern.

    Other than they got in there and considering many depts operations these days...that is to be respected.

    FTM-PTB

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    Talking Good Job

    Got in there and Kicked the Boggie Manís *****, good job guys.

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    For discussion's sake:

    In a building that well ventilated and fire in what seems to be free burn stage, would there really be any thermal difference between floor and ceiling to want to crawl? Personally I've only crawling in unventilated buildings, that's the only time I felt the heat difference. With ventilation done right (by fire or truckies) vision is clear, heat is minimal, why tear up the knees, gear, and proceed more slowly? On a 1st floor with no basement really possible I wouldn't be worried about floor integrity. 2nd floor I would be sounding it like mad before walking on it with that much fire showing.

    And for the pattern, for an intial knock down of a wide area before going tight fog, isn't that a half decent move to avoid spending energy waving the nozzle all over to cover the same area? Doesn't take much water for a knockdown, and if the pressure is right there is more than enough water hitting burning surfaces to make the knock. It looks like they tightened it when they got in, the one later shot you can partially see a tight fog coming across the front window.

    Definitely a nice job on the crew's part. Especially with checking the line before entry, not many do that. Looked like they were doing a quick walkaround beforehand also to make sure there wouldn't be any surprises.

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    Talking

    Here we go. Let the games begin!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    For discussion's sake:

    In a building that well ventilated and fire in what seems to be free burn stage, would there really be any thermal difference between floor and ceiling to want to crawl? Personally I've only crawling in unventilated buildings, that's the only time I felt the heat difference. With ventilation done right (by fire or truckies) vision is clear, heat is minimal, why tear up the knees, gear, and proceed more slowly? On a 1st floor with no basement really possible I wouldn't be worried about floor integrity. 2nd floor I would be sounding it like mad before walking on it with that much fire showing.

    And for the pattern, for an intial knock down of a wide area before going tight fog, isn't that a half decent move to avoid spending energy waving the nozzle all over to cover the same area? Doesn't take much water for a knockdown, and if the pressure is right there is more than enough water hitting burning surfaces to make the knock. It looks like they tightened it when they got in, the one later shot you can partially see a tight fog coming across the front window.

    Definitely a nice job on the crew's part. Especially with checking the line before entry, not many do that. Looked like they were doing a quick walkaround beforehand also to make sure there wouldn't be any surprises.
    Vision I would say was far from clear in this example and explain to us what school of firefighting teaches their members to walk into a burning building? What is the floor like in that building? What happens if a window in the rear gives way and a gust of wind from the rear suddenly sends a fireball out the front? Why take unecesary chances?
    Do you honestly think that the temp and visiblity at the floor is the same at head level when standing?

    This method has been taught for decades and for simple safety reasons should be adheared too. Get down everytime...no reason to do this unless one is looking to salt up the helmet to BS someone.

    As for the nozzle patern...anyone who thinks that was a good patern either only learned firefighting in the Navy or is still stuck with that nonsense from the 1960s in their heads. Not one editorial board of instructors in this country would allow the preceding tactics to be published or taught at a confrence, no reason to advocate them on here. They checked to see if they had water but didn't adjust the patern after seeing the nozzle adjusted to an almost full fog. Whoever checked the rig that morning missed that nozzle as it shouldn't have been stored rotated to the left as it was. Always keep fog tips rotated to the right.

    Use the reach of the stream and keep it pointed high...moving it in a circular patern (or just moving left to right) and far ahead of the nozzle team while sweeping the floor periodically to cool the floor in front of you and check for a floor at all.

    Poor technique and poor disipline...but as I said...they overcame that, still made entry and got the fire out this time...which in todays fire service is something to be respected.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-15-2006 at 11:56 AM.

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    If a gust of wind sends a fireball out the front won't there be fire at every point of the open area (door, window) so there won't be much of a difference in where you are would there?

    I didn't mean there is no actual thermal difference between floor and standing height, I mean one that makes you say 'dang that's hot versus one' that won't make a difference while in PPE. 400-500 degree temps is well within PPE limits, and also well within tolerance while wearing PPE. And again, if the structure is ventilated properly then that high heat isn't there. It's been done over and over again in burn buildings. Closed structure, high heat. Ventilated structure, very little heat even with the fire rolling.

    Either way kind of a moot point. Watched the video again several times. The pattern at the nozzle test is 30 degrees or less, far from a wide fog. It also appears that they walked up to the door and crawling in when getting there. The 3rd FF in can be clearly seen to be on their knees.

    I'm all for going home after the call, washing the PPE, and far from someone burning the helmet for pride's sake. A chest-pounder I'm not. Was just opening it up for discussion since it was there.

    And no, the recruits are taught to crawl, and when in doubt I do the same. But after many years on the job there's not one person in the fire service that can say they do it exactly like it's done in recruit class. Crawling is a case by case basis we all make a decision on based on experience.
    Last edited by BC79er; 06-15-2006 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    If a gust of wind sends a fireball out the front won't there be fire at every point of the open area (door, window) so there won't be much of a difference in where you are would there?
    Not necessarily, Air flow isn't the same at floor level as it is a celing height due to furniture and other obstructions lower to the ground...it is one of many reasons firemen are taught to stay low. Is this standing up upon entry a standard method taught to probies in your area of the country?

    I didn't mean there is no actual thermal difference between floor and standing height, I mean one that makes you say 'dang that's hot versus one' that won't make a difference while in PPE. 400-500 degree temps is well within PPE limits, and also well within tolerance while wearing PPE. And again, if the structure is ventilated properly then that high heat isn't there. It's been done over and over again in burn buildings. Closed structure, high heat. Ventilated structure, very little heat even with the fire rolling.
    No reason to tempt fate and saturate your gear with additional heat...we aren't talking about burn buildings my friend...we are talking real world. All we see in this video is the same thing they saw...the front...the sides and rear are essentially unknowns to us and the men on the nozzle. I see no reason or benefit to walking in when considering the possible consequences that might result from doing so.

    Either way kind of a moot point. Watched the video again several times. The pattern at the nozzle test is 30 degrees or less, far from a wide fog. It also appears that they walked up to the door and crawling in when getting there. The 3rd FF in can be clearly seen to be on their knees.
    You say 30 I say 50...eitherway it was much to big and I know what happens when a fog stream like that is used on a fire like that...I did it when I was very new and very inexperienced years ago and along my ensuing experience with reams of tactical articles and texts in the past few decades to support my position I would say if that nozzle wasn't a tight straight stream it wasn't the optimum choice for this interior fire and certainly didn't make the push any easier for the men.

    It is hard to tell at what point they drop to their knees as they are inside...however the back-up man is inside when he does and I would think considering the mechanics of what happens when the lead man drops the back-up man is sure to follow at essentailly the same time. Regardless the nozzleman is anywhere from 5 to 10 ft in before he drops...he should have been on his knees at 0 ft. That floor might or might not have been there at 3,4,6 or 8 ft.

    People talk about getting back to basics...well this is Engineman basics 101 and it is unfortunate that this should even be an issue today.

    FTM-PTB

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    Walking to the point of entry is pretty standard in both areas I've been in, then dropping right before the point of entry, not inside the point of entry. Given the fire spread out to the porch roof area I might have knocked that down before heading in myself, just to make sure it didn't keep burning and fall. But from the limited video time and range it was taken at we can't tell if they already checked that out or not.

    Wind dynamics changing from furniture and other items makes sense, but in a blowout there won't be much difference if the whole room gets rocking. At higher velocities the wind will go around the furnishings initially, but they do give something to duck behind.

    And I'm not disagreeing with crawling first, but depending on conditions no reason to stay that way if mobility and quicker reactions are needed. Even in the real world I've gotten up when the structure has been ventilated. Due to cheap construction around here the fires zips up into the attic and have a hole in the roof before anyone even calls us, so most times it has self-ventilated before arrival. I've always found little to medium smoke and little heat in the living areas when that happens. And on the rare occasion when we've gotten to cut the roof open, we put the PPV in place, the temp and smoke go away quick too. Call it the one slight chance I take, but if I can see more than 6 feet, I stand up after reaching up to check thermal barrier with my hand. Gloved hand that is.

    And we'll never get anyone to agree on pattern width no matter what, but I'm a straight stream kinda guy myself. Just found it to work better on the job.

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    Looked like bread and butter to me

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    well every department does things different, and here we go in on that type of fog pattern at every fire, it works for us. About the standing up, when the LT says to get down thats when I do it, he's the boss for me, I can move alot quicker and more efficiently on my feet.

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    Thats what im talking about. Good firefighting, not standing out side hitting it from the road, Getting the job done. And using the inch and a half. Love it...

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    Hey they did a good job on that aggressive interior attack.

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    Talking Wow

    WOW! My Hero's! They knocked that out in 1 minute. That is awesome.

    Talk about taking the bull by the horns! YEEHAW! Ride 'em cowboy!

    M

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    Never Mind This Post
    Last edited by ehs7554; 06-15-2006 at 03:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    As for the nozzle patern...anyone who thinks that was a good patern either only learned firefighting in the Navy or is still stuck with that nonsense from the 1960s in their heads. Not one editorial board of instructors in this country would allow the preceding tactics to be published or taught at a confrence, no reason to advocate them on here. They checked to see if they had water but didn't adjust the patern after seeing the nozzle adjusted to an almost full fog. Whoever checked the rig that morning missed that nozzle as it shouldn't have been stored rotated to the left as it was. Always keep fog tips rotated to the right. FTM-PTB
    I was taught in structural class that you always enter and exit a building with the nozzle on fog, just incase that wind kicks up from the back and blows fire at you, or you have a flashover. That fog pattern will save your life in some instances.

    They went for an agressive, quick knockdown, and probably saved what was left of the structure. Also with that quick knockdown they minimized the manpower used, so that other units could remain available for other emergencies.

    If that is the way their department wants to fight fire, more power to them.
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    Personally I think they had the nozzle too wide open and should not have entered standing and as quickly as they did. I would have tightned up my nozzle and hit the fire from the door then proceeded in. But that's just me.
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    that looked ok to me ..........the only thing I would add is taht it appears taht it had to be "warm" before they went in and I was surprised they werent lower......the job got done and looked like cake to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    I was taught in structural class that you always enter and exit a building with the nozzle on fog, just incase that wind kicks up from the back and blows fire at you, or you have a flashover. That fog pattern will save your life in some instances.

    They went for an agressive, quick knockdown, and probably saved what was left of the structure. Also with that quick knockdown they minimized the manpower used, so that other units could remain available for other emergencies.

    If that is the way their department wants to fight fire, more power to them.
    The wind will just blow the steam and fog towards you, making the possibility of steam burns even greater, and would penetrate the fire even less than it alread does. I find this very hard to believe.
    If the fire is blowtorching towards you, a fog pattern is gonna be like ****ing in the wind.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    If the fire is blowtorching towards you, a fog pattern is gonna be like ****ing in the wind.
    A quick question: If a fog pattern is like ****ing in the wind, what will a straight stream do for you?


    PS What do you find very hard to believe, that we were taught this?
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    If a fog pattern is like ****ing in the wind, what will a straight stream do for you?
    Put water on the fire?

    What do you find very hard to believe, that we were taught this?
    In my case, yes I find it hard to believe. We just finished another recruit class and I've yet to hear/see anyone actually teach this method for a structural attack. But if that is what you were taught and what your department does, I don't have to agree with it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    You have to LOVE the ENGINE Guy's Stop Monday Morning Quarterbacking...The Fire went out, everyone went home...What else...this is what we do FIGHT FIRES. I remember doing that
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    Pick a department, any department. Video tape a job and you will see example after example of non text book tactics. It happens. Would I prefer to see that guy on his knees with a straight stream, sure. But, Im also glad they didnt just play the line thru the window.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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