1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Southwestern, Pa
    Posts
    179

    Default Cutter Evaluation

    Does anyone know of any unbiased research or articles on the new high cutting pressure rescue cutters. We are considering buying a a new set of cutters to used with our 10,500 lb system. I would like some good research that does not come from a salesman or fire fighter/rescue personnel who just want to say what they have is best. Other than comparing the NFPA numbers I haven't found any articles or research of what 150,000 pound plus cutting force cutters work best in a real world or controlled test situation.
    BB

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    not a salesman, I am biased toward holmatro, that's what I use and like. but I recommened what responsible tool manufacturers say, which is to stick with whatever brand of pump you have. the tools are a "system" and should be used that way, don't mix brands. too many safety issues, liability issues, and warranty issues. the salesman will say anything for the sale, but the makers don't recommend it

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Southwestern, Pa
    Posts
    179

    Default

    I hear you, and in a general way, agree with you. However, we have an AMKUS system with witch we are very satisfied. The problem is as far as I can tell AMKUS is not working on a higher force cutter than the model 21. We can not afford a whole new system, but we know there are metals out there we can not cut. If AMKUS were to get in the race, we would love to stick with them because we like AMKUS as far as they will go...They just seem to be falling behind in the "high power" category. We probably will use the "25" speedway cutters as the preconnected cutter, but would like a "go to" cutter to handle anything beyond the model 25 "O" and speedway cutters in our system.
    I purposely worded my original post so as not to bias responses for or against any brand.
    Thanks for your input!
    BB

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3

    Default Centaur

    We've been using hurt centaur high press for about four yrs now, great tool, preferr the pinch jaw cutter over the straight ( they tend to push the metal away) no prob cutting hinges, naders we've even gone at a laminated A post, took some time but cut through no damage. Word of caution though... keep in mind what the depts surrounding you use, we have agreements with four neibouring depts, and have had 2 incidents where it was multi vehicle once our pump quit, the other time thiers quit, couldn't use our cutters on thier pump and vise versa.

    Mike

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    I continue to be impressed with the progress that Champion Rescue Tools has made with their new BEAST Unit. It will work with a high pressure system. I have not used one yet, but I have talked with someone who helped to evaluate it, and he was very impressed. I also like the Champion RC-5 just because it is a different cutting system that is also compatible with high pressure. If you are already using "O" type cutters, and need something with more power for unusual situations, perhaps that tool would be your ideal option.

    If you don't like the Champion, my other choice would be a Genesis tool which I believe has a very powerful cutter on the market as well. I have used their tools in training and have been very happy with their performance.

    I am not a salesman, and I actually prefer low pressure systems, but since I am not aware of any "apples to apples" comparisons, I figured I'd toss in my 2 cents.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    28

    Default Tool Time in Texas

    Ron Moore hosted, what he called Tool Time or something similar in I beleive Mckinney, TX or Plano, TX a couple of years ago. This is the only true tool test or comparison where everyone was invited and got to put up or shut up. You might search for the responses made after the comparison. Although many manufacturers have added new models since then.

    You might also look at Advanced Blade Design as a new technology. With new blade designs, less force is actually being developed to achieve the same cuts.

    Stay safe
    "Training Today for a Better Tomorrow"

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    90

    Default

    [QUOTE=Flowtech;691849]We've been using hurt centaur high press for about four yrs now, great tool, preferr the pinch jaw cutter over the straight ( they tend to push the metal away) no prob cutting hinges, naders we've even gone at a laminated A post, took some time but cut through no damage. Word of caution though... keep in mind what the depts surrounding you use, we have agreements with four neibouring depts, and have had 2 incidents where it was multi vehicle once our pump quit, the other time thiers quit, couldn't use our cutters on thier pump and vise versa.

    I saw an article in a magazine that Centaur is coming out with a single one step connection that will work on Centaur, Amkus, TNT, Holmatro (twin line), Genesis. This coupling sounds like it will make everyone compatible with a quick connect coupling.

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Centuar cutters are in fact compatible with Amkus systems. Several Amkus FD's in my area are looking into the Centuar MOC cutter as an answer to Amkus' shortcomings. As far as warranty issues - Hurst WILL honor the warranties when their tools are used on an Amkus system. And yes, I do have that in writing.
    Last edited by MEAN15; 03-03-2007 at 01:37 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    careful there, Centuar is NFPA compliant at 9100psi, not at ANY other pressure. Most of the systems you mentioned are 10,500 psi systems.

    Lets try not to rig something up that "works", we have testing and certification for a reason. We are trying to bring the Fire Service into the 21st century, not backward.
    By the way, who'd you get the warranty in writing from, because it was not Hurst or Centaur. The factory rep, not the sales guy advised me that it is not anywhere in a corporate issued document.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    199

    Default

    I didn't intend to start a ****ing match, but I kinda thought it might happen. Just trying to pass on some info and let the brothers know they have options. The Centuars actually perform better at the higher pressures. Personally, I don't like the idea of mixing tools either. But then again, I don't have much choice. My FD uses Hurst, and there's not much that is compatible with Hurst.

    (And yes, the warranty info came from Hurst - I'd be glad to share it with you.)
    Last edited by MEAN15; 03-03-2007 at 11:35 PM.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    105

    Cool No Fighting Please

    I too, just becam interested in replacing our extrication equipment and am very interested in different opinions of rescue tools. So lets keep this thread going peacefully?

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Hey Mr. mean, no offense taken or meant.

    Would like to see those Hurst papers though. I like the MOC III cutter.
    Can you email them?

    hvfd@sbcglobal.net

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Take a look at the ResQtek "green line".A very nice cutter that from what I'm told can be tailored to work on anyones system.Before you ask,I don't have the lawyers release or the paperwork on this,if you have questions I suggest contacting ResQTek directly.I've used it,I like it and the tool is very well balanced in any operating position.We use Holmatro,have for years and I haven't found anything I couldn't get into to date.But I'm sure they're out there and I'm equally sure that day is coming soon.I also suggest head to head tests on models that interest you along with direct questioning to the mfg.Best of luck,T.C.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15 View Post
    I didn't intend to start a ****ing match, but I kinda thought it might happen. Just trying to pass on some info and let the brothers know they have options. The Centuars actually perform better at the higher pressures. Personally, I don't like the idea of mixing tools either. But then again, I don't have much choice. My FD uses Hurst, and there's not much that is compatible with Hurst.

    (And yes, the warranty info came from Hurst - I'd be glad to share it with you.)
    Here a quote from the operation manual from centaur :
    7.4 Hydraulic oil supply

    CENTAUR motor/engine pump or hand pump is used for operating the devices.

    If the power pack comes from a manufacturer other than CENTAUR, it must be ensured that it fulfils the CENTAUR specifications, as otherwise dangers may occur for which CENTAUR cannot be held liable. Especially it has to be made sure that the permissible working pressure of 9,140 psi. is not exceeded.

    Take care before plugging any motor on centaur

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Sounds to me like the sales department and the production department are singing two different tunes. I think maybe they need to get together and get on the same page.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jersey / Newark, DE
    Posts
    41

    Default

    The 2 types of tools that i have had personal experience with have been TNT and holmatro (pre CORE).

    Between the 2 types i have to side with the TNT line. A few cut jobs ago with the holmatro, I ran into a serious power issue with the o cutter. The last cut job went smoother with them, but they are much slower than the TNT. The holmatro has a duel stage... all well and good, but it takes too freaking long to get through a simple post.

    I have never once ran into a problem with the TNT's in terms of power. The only problem with TNT i have ever had was running slow on cold days, which is kinda expected...

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    You are right on the money. The nothing can be done about the cold weather. Try running the pump in the morning and circulating the fluid about 20 mins. Then put the hoses in cab if it is really cold. Just a mineral oil issue.
    Right about the Holmatro O cutters, that model is about 15 years old. Try the NCT line. We have four of them, the latest being the 4050. I am biased and also have seen another department put them to the test in evals. The 4050 won hands down on cutting materials and overall performance. The centaur MOC III was close second. I personally have not found where 3-4 four seconds on cutting an a post mattered much in the overal picture of a rescue. The size of the cylinder required to produce the forces to cut the modern metals makes up the difference.
    BUT...... I also know the frustration when someone is hurting and we are working to get them out, it is all about perception. We keep a set of older 3035nct's for everyday jobs, and 50's in our back pocket for insurance.

    To each his own.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,047

    Default

    Do your own tests --- apples to apples --- get enough of the same material -- ie steering columns from a bus the same grade square tubing etc -- and take notes -- time to cut , recoil ( how much the material moves when being cut) etc --- try and find a junk yard that will let you take your time on a vehicle -- one week cut the hinges on the right side with brand A -- next week cut the left hinges with brand B --
    And we are pleased so far with our Genesis cutters.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    17

    Default Look at ratings

    I was assigned to a heavy rescue company at the time we were looking into new tools. We were told that the NFPA rating stuff was created to give purchasers actual "unbiased" reports on how cutters actually performed while cutting metal. "This cutter cuts with 150,000,000 lbs" tells me nothing, but to see what size metal it actually cut during an evaluation, kind of has some merit. Although It wasnt the only resource we used to help us purchase, it helped us make our decision with a bit more confidence. I am now a battalion chief so I havent had the chance to use our tools too much since we purchased them, but I havent heard any complaiints. Just a suggestion

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Wetaskiwin, AB, Canada
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Last year we bought a set of Hurst cutters with 152,000 psi of cutting force. They claimed they would cut seat tracks, hinges, and nader pins. We have cut those things and these cutters work awesome. They save a ton of time on the scene of an MVC. Instead of wasting time trying to pop a door off with spreaders we can now just cut the hinges and save valuable seconds.


    Mike

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    16

    Cool blade costs

    you keep cutting hinges and talking about alot easier then popin door but how much do the blades cost ......for a new set and why cut a hinge when all you need to do is remove the patient make no sense the blades for a hurst cuurt cost almost a 1000.00 dollars a set whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy waist time and money ,,,,,just pop the nater and push door out of way

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Man, do you read this post often. Have you been in a cave.
    Read the forums about side impact bags, side curtains, etc.
    We quit dragging folks out of doors about 10 years ago.
    And, most brands, have blades way more than capable of cutting hinges easily.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    16

    Red face homeland security tool evaluation

    great web site for all questions done by home land security at texas a&m


    WWW.SAVER.TAMU.EDU GREAT INFO FOR TOOLS

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Just make sure you read the whole report, including comments by the "judges". The results don't match the individual reviews. That is why Congress is now investigating the program.
    All of their tests were very subjective, and not in anyway scientific. I was present for a few of the "tests" and even the members were skeptical.

    Why spend all that taxpayer money to do something individual departments can do, and to try and re create things NFPA has already done.

    That was a chunk of OUR AFG money wasted.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    31

    Default

    Amkus and Genesis have the same coupling, same hose, same pressure, and the same fluid. I f you want to upgrade your cutters look at the Genesis tools, the cutters start at 90,000 lbs where amkus stops at 72,000. The Genesis C231 cutter has 231,000 lbs cutting and the highest NFPA rating of any cutter. Later.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. They don't want a Pierce!!! Say it's not so!
    By RetJaxFF in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 319
    Last Post: 03-06-2009, 04:30 AM
  2. New Hydraulic Cutter?
    By MaximI in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 04-07-2006, 07:49 AM
  3. SCBA Evaluation Criteria
    By kglfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-15-2005, 01:44 PM
  4. Opinions on different Cameras?
    By hydboy in forum Thermal Imaging Cameras
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-11-1999, 06:06 PM
  5. Cutting hinges and/or Nader pin; Power cutter techniques; etc
    By hunden in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-17-1999, 09:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register