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    Default NIST High Rise PPV Experiments in Toledo, OH

    We have successfully used our hovercraft as a PPV fan at several fires in churches, factories, etc. (This has always been after the fire was controlled.) This is the first time it has been used at a high rise and appeared to have worked very well according to our crew that was involved in the tests.

    I look forward to reading the NIST report on these experiments.

    http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...160369/-1/NEWS

    No inferno, just smoky experiment at high rise
    Fire safety studied at Fiberglas Tower

    By JC REINDL
    BLADE STAFF WRITER


    Smoke filled the ground floor of the vacant Fiberglas Tower in downtown Toledo yesterday morning as local fire officials and their counterparts from New York City and Chicago gathered to watch emergency workers pull a rescue hovercraft to the building's entrance.

    But there was no fire in the 30-story office building, and it wasn't the scene of a rescue effort.

    The departments were participating in a federally sponsored experiment to determine whether blowing air into burning high-rise buildings, a technique known as positive pressure ventilation, can keep smoke and heat out of stairways and possibly help save the lives of those trapped inside.

    When the hovercraft experiment kicked off about noon, Washington Township firefighters placed their boat in front of one of the tower's entrances on St. Clair Street near Jefferson Avenue. With the craft fastened to a trailer hitch, they aimed its giant, 75- horsepower-driven propeller into the lobby and revved the engine - delivering an ear-popping roar that could be heard more than a block away.

    "That's loud," exclaimed one bystander.

    Moments later, smoke that was trickling from another open doorway in the building began pouring out onto the sidewalk.

    It was the first time an experiment of its kind has been conducted, said Daniel Madrzykowski, fire protection engineer for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, an agency within the U.S. Commerce Department that sponsored the test at no cost to Toledo.

    For the experiment, institute technicians wired every floor of the black- windowed building last weekend with pressure gauges, smoke detectors, and other instruments. Starting Monday, they began testing ways of blowing air into one of its stairwells to increase air pressure.

    Higher pressure can limit the amount of smoke and heat that can get inside a stairway, making it easier for people trapped inside a burning building to escape.

    The technicians are trying to determine how effective positive pressure ventilation can be, and the best ways to use it. Three officials from New York City's fire department and two from the Chicago Fire Department witnessed the tests to determine whether their cities' departments should start using positive pressure techniques when fighting high-rise fires.

    "We've run over 160 experiments this week, and we're getting some good data," Mr. Madrzykowski said.

    The institute initially lacked a venue for the tests, which require an empty, modern, high-rise office building. But in a passing conversation with Toledo Deputy Fire Chief John Coleman, officials learned about the Fiberglas Tower.

    "It's very hard to find a vacant high-rise building," Chief Coleman said. "I said, 'Hey, I think I got one that I might be able to get us into.' "

    The building has been vacant since 1996, when Owens Corning moved its headquarters to a nearby 45-acre campus. The building's owner, Eyde Co. in East Lansing, Mich., let fire officials use the tower for free.

    Some fire departments have been using positive pressure techniques for years when combating fires in houses and small buildings. However, the strategies are employed less often when battling blazes in high-rise structures, generally considered as those over seven stories, because the techniques are still unproven in such circumstances, officials said.

    There is a risk of fanning the flames and moving smoke into new parts of the building, said Jerry Tracy, a New York City battalion fire chief.

    The week's experiments, which concluded yesterday, were intended to provide a better understanding of how the ventilation technique works.

    "Unless we know we can do this safely and that it works, there's no point in even trying it," Chief Tracy said.

    Institute engineers and researchers will spent the next several months analyzing the collected data. A report on the effectiveness of positive pressure techniques in tall buildings could be finished the end of the year, Mr. Madrzykowski said.

    Toledo firefighters have been using the ventilation strategies since the mid-1980s, but the department hopes to refine its techniques through lessons learned from this week's tests, Chief Coleman said. Still, most of the department's experience has come from house fires, because high-rise fires are much less frequent.

    "We get them, but we just don't get them as often as the big cities do," Chief Coleman said.
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    I still say no. Just an example.....the fire thats on the cover of the new issue of FH is that of Tracy Towers in the Bronx......if PPV had been used there.....the members of E-79 and L-37 would have been killed instead of just burned. I would rather listen to what a senior man who have fought a few real fires in these buildings have to say about that before some Gov't agency. I guess a good place to start is a 1st Due LCC...ask him what the conditions were like in the attack and evac stairs.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    I still say no. Just an example.....the fire thats on the cover of the new issue of FH is that of Tracy Towers in the Bronx......if PPV had been used there.....the members of E-79 and L-37 would have been killed instead of just burned. I would rather listen to what a senior man who have fought a few real fires in these buildings have to say about that before some Gov't agency. I guess a good place to start is a 1st Due LCC...ask him what the conditions were like in the attack and evac stairs.......
    Vinnie, why is it that you do not believe that anyone other than an urban FF has a valid place at the table when the subject of researching fire fighting tactics comes up? The FDNY must think that NIST is a pretty important "Gov't agency". Last time I was down there, there was a FDNY Lt. asigned there, conducting research on PPE right along side those engineers and scientists.

    And before you call in the dogs, this is not a slam at the FDNY. But I have witnessed first hand the work that NIST does. They are second to no one in this country when it comes to improving the working conditions of FF and protecting their health and safety.

    You want to see what they do? Go to www.nist.gov, and then click on Building Fire and Research Laboratory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Vinnie, why is it that you do not believe that anyone other than an urban FF has a valid place at the table when the subject of researching fire fighting tactics comes up? The FDNY must think that NIST is a pretty important "Gov't agency". Last time I was down there, there was a FDNY Lt. asigned there, conducting research on PPE right along side those engineers and scientists.

    And before you call in the dogs, this is not a slam at the FDNY. But I have witnessed first hand the work that NIST does. They are second to no one in this country when it comes to improving the working conditions of FF and protecting their health and safety.

    You want to see what they do? Go to www.nist.gov, and then click on Building Fire and Research Laboratory.
    No doubt they are George. And I am well aware of what they do. All I am saying is that it most likey won't work due to the construction of many High Rise buildings. I am saying that I take the word of a senior urban fireman over that of a lab geek who's never been down a hallway. You say you have witnessed NIST firsthand, that great, they do a-lot of good for the fire service, no doubt....but I have witnessed High Rise fires first hand.....not many, but enough to know that introdution of pressurized are is B-A-D. Once a stairwell door buckles from the heat, that air will rush right in and reek havoc. I won't argue that the NIST is the best in the land when it comes to improving saftey....but the way I see it, my Dept is second to none when it comes to High Rise Fire Operations, we've been going to them for atleast 70 years now.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 06-18-2006 at 10:19 AM.
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    Question the whole hovercraft thingy

    how much weed do you have to smoke to think of puttin a hovercraft up to a building in place of a ppv fan that costs a fraction of the price of a hovercraft. i have a hard time understanding the whole thought process in this one. kind of one of those "hey check this out" redneck jokes.

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    How many PPV vans do you carry that equal the volume of a hovercraft engines?

    And last I read, weren't there "senior" FDNY guys there as part of this testing?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    how much weed do you have to smoke to think of puttin a hovercraft up to a building in place of a ppv fan that costs a fraction of the price of a hovercraft. i have a hard time understanding the whole thought process in this one. kind of one of those "hey check this out" redneck jokes.
    Well, we certainly did not go out and buy a hovercraft just to use it as a fan. We also don't use it on single family dwellings, etc. Strictly for large structures with thousands of square feet of floor space.

    The idea originally came from now retired Toledo Battalion Chief Dan Kerr. He was at a joint TFRD/WTFD ice rescue drill and after seeing the hovercraft, thought that the rear propulsion fan that moves hundreds of thousands of cfm would work well to ppv a large structure. Sure enough, a few days later they had a smokey fire in a huge auto parts factory and Chief Kerr called for our hovercraft. I'm sure the initial reaction from the crews on scene was similar to yours. It worked well and has been used several times since with good results.

    If anybody's interested, here's some photos from the testing sessions: www.wtfd.net/news.html

    If these tests are favorable and this idea catches on, I'm sure some of the fan manufacturers will come up with some similar sized fans on trailers, etc. and make a ton of money.
    "The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt790
    Well, we certainly did not go out and buy a hovercraft just to use it as a fan. We also don't use it on single family dwellings, etc. Strictly for large structures with thousands of square feet of floor space.

    The idea originally came from now retired Toledo Battalion Chief Dan Kerr. He was at a joint TFRD/WTFD ice rescue drill and after seeing the hovercraft, thought that the rear propulsion fan that moves hundreds of thousands of cfm would work well to ppv a large structure. Sure enough, a few days later they had a smokey fire in a huge auto parts factory and Chief Kerr called for our hovercraft. I'm sure the initial reaction from the crews on scene was similar to yours. It worked well and has been used several times since with good results.

    If anybody's interested, here's some photos from the testing sessions: www.wtfd.net/news.html

    If these tests are favorable and this idea catches on, I'm sure some of the fan manufacturers will come up with some similar sized fans on trailers, etc. and make a ton of money.
    Let me understand this...your Chief utilized a unproven un-tested peice of equipment in a manner not ever attempted before without guidance from procedures or trials at a real fire off the cuff?

    It is one thing to adapt when a situation forces one to do so immediately with the tools and men on hand at that moment...however ordering this piece of appratus to a fire for the sole purpose of trying out his theory in a real world senario is **** poor firefighting and shows a complete lack of common sense and experience. Best of luck but I seriously would hope this isn't how most of your procedures are developed today.

    As for manufactures...yes if anyone even hints at this being a potentially usefull tactic...there we be swarms of dopey fire chiefs who will run out and spend $$$ on this "new" inovative tool that will revolutionize firefighting as we know it. Of course the Engines in their city will still have 2 men and an officer and the Ladder will only have 2 men as well...but I'm sure all that money will be well spent on the next fire service "trend"!

    Been to a number of high-rise fires...all one needs is men, some basic training, a 2 1/2 hose smoothbore tip and some balls. This fan idea might provide a marginal benefit if anything at all...but in reality if everone would focus on just providing the proper manpower and tools and tactics all this silly nonsense could be ignored.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-BTW Vinne we've been doing Skyscrapers/standpipes for a century now.

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    Using the hovercraft is a heck of better use of money then other options

    Large capacity PPV has been with us since at least the early 1990s (maybe earlier).

    I tried looking it up at Fire Engineering, but their web archive doesn't go back far enough to when I remember reading about such tactics -- so the Toledo Chief probably wasn't having an original thought as much as creatively applying something he had previously read in trade journals (not that I'm positive it was in FE...pretty sure, but not positive...)

    I want to say it was Austin, TX that mounted a VW engine to a plane propeller, and carted it around on a trailer for the similiar use in removing smoke from very large structures.

    If it's being used as a tool to remove smoke, and not as a tactical attack tool on an uncontrolled fire, I really don't see what the issue is.

    PPV has to be compatible with your tactics -- and if it normally conflicts, you've got to make sure the guys are out of harms way before using it.

    If I'm spending money, I'd much rather have a tool like a hovercraft that can do PPV too for the rare incident, then purchase a tool that only does that one exceptionally rare job like this http://www.supervac.com/productdetails.asp?productid=87

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    Ummmm, this is a NEW idea? Weve been useing PPV for charging stairwells down here for years. And you certainly dont need a hovercraft, just two large (18k cfm+) fans in tandem. Works great, at least up to the 22 stories weve used it on. Oh, and weve never burned up any firefighters in the process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    If I'm spending money, I'd much rather have a tool like a hovercraft that can do PPV too for the rare incident, then purchase a tool that only does that one exceptionally rare job like this http://www.supervac.com/productdetails.asp?productid=87
    Unless you have no open water in which case a hovercraft would be equally as usless
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    Wow........... So much for thinking outside the box..........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    PS-BTW Vinne we've been doing Skyscrapers/standpipes for a century now.

    Thanks FFRED...I was thinking of that...and your right.....I forgot about The World, Woolworth, and Met Life buildings....but since since the Civil War.....I would think the Loft buildings in your neck of the city were considered high rise back in the day.....Triangle Shirtwaist comes to mind......I always wondered which building had the first standpipe system in it.....That will give me something to read up on tommorrow during the 12x........

    BONES....yes a Senior member was present, a Chief.....and his thoughts were stated too....along the lines with what I stated.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 06-19-2006 at 11:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    If it's being used as a tool to remove smoke, and not as a tactical attack tool on an uncontrolled fire, I really don't see what the issue is.
    That is exactly how it has and will continue to be used until "guidance from procedures or trials" (such as this NIST testing) suggests a safe way to do otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Thanks FFRED...I was thinking of that...and your right.....I forgot about The World, Woolworth, and Met Life buildings....but since since the Civil War.....I would think the Loft buildings in your neck of the city were considered high rise back in the day.....Triangle Shirtwaist comes to mind......I always wondered which building had the first standpipe system in it.....That will give me something to read up on tommorrow during the 12x.........
    Uh, I don't think so. You New Yorkers! Always think you were first!

    1885 First Skyscraper
    The Home Insurance Building, erected at the northeast corner of LaSalle and Adams streets (on the site now occupied by the west portion of the Field building), is called the first skyscraper.
    Nine stories and one basement were completed in 1885. Two stories were added in 1891. The architect, Major William Le Baron Jenney, created the first load-carrying structural frame, the development of which led to the "Chicago skeleton" form of construction and the big skyscrapers of later years.

    In this building, a steel frame supported the entire weight of the walls instead of the walls themselves carrying the weight of the building which was the usual method. After Jenney's accomplishment the sky was truly the limit so far as building was concerned. His first skyscraper revolutionized urban life because with higher buildings larger numbers of people could live and work in limited areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    If it's being used as a tool to remove smoke, and not as a tactical attack tool on an uncontrolled fire, I really don't see what the issue is.
    Thats because in the case....its a High Rise building. To me smoke removal would be for the everyday runs to High Rise buildings....and there are easier ways to remove smoke from Food of the Stove and burnt our A/Cs than planting a big fan IFO the building.
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    I don't think food on a stove is a consideration in any of these scenarios.

    One is the original application of very large PPV -- to clear large structures (mostly low buildings AFAIK) like stores, malls, warehouses of smoke after a fire is controlled (and companies are in place in case of flare-ups to call off the PPV and control the flare-up).

    I don't know if it's ever been applied to high-rises, which is part of what it sounds like the tests are working on.

    I'm leery of using it as an attack tool, because of difficulty coordinating and conducting operations due to building height...then again don't have to worry about the VES crew 20 stories up

    But the other part of the story was as an extension of an already accepted practice -- charging the stairwells with high air pressure to keep smoke out. It's my understanding that is currently done with HVAC systems. If those are compromised, having an alternative could be valuable. Wether a "hammer" of a huge fan without fine control of the pressure would cause more problems, I guess that's what the NIST tests are for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    No doubt they are George. And I am well aware of what they do. All I am saying is that it most likey won't work due to the construction of many High Rise buildings. I am saying that I take the word of a senior urban fireman over that of a lab geek who's never been down a hallway. You say you have witnessed NIST firsthand, that great, they do a-lot of good for the fire service, no doubt....but I have witnessed High Rise fires first hand.....not many, but enough to know that introdution of pressurized are is B-A-D. Once a stairwell door buckles from the heat, that air will rush right in and reek havoc. I won't argue that the NIST is the best in the land when it comes to improving saftey....but the way I see it, my Dept is second to none when it comes to High Rise Fire Operations, we've been going to them for atleast 70 years now.
    First of all, I am not, as I said before, putting down the FDNY in this. They certainly have tons of experience in the high-rise field, but you are not the only ones who do. It also appears, in a second read of the article, that NIST valued FDNY so much, you were represented at this field test.

    Secondly, NIST did not give their blessing to this. I know Dan Madrzykowski and I know that they will take the data from the 160 experiments and analyze them inside out and backwards. This will take time. Do not look for a report on this next week. If it is a stupid idea (which, IMO, it is) they will say it. Wouldn't be the first time what seemed to be like a good idea turned out to be dangerous (remember the Jet Axe?).

    My main point here is not that the "lab geek" should do all the research, but that the research community has a claim to a seat at the table. They should not defer all of their research to experienced urban FF's. That is ridiculous. Good ideas come out of the firehouse. But stupid ideas also abound.

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    Default Is Firefighting Science?

    I would agree with George that researchers need a seat a the table. Many things that we do are based simply on "past practice". Not that this is all bad, but integrating experience with science is a better approach. We not only need to know what to do, but why we should do it.

    PPV is a great example. This is an excellent tool when used correctly and a dangerous one when it is not. Many firefighters have a reasonably good skill level at ventilation tasks, but do not understand it at the tactical level or the influence that it has on fire behavior (NIOSHs observation that ventilation and fire control must be coordinated is a "code phrase" for tactically induced rapid fire progress). Integrating scientific research on ventilation tactics (both in the lab and full scale tests) with practical experience provides a tremendous learning opportunity.
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    IMHO, it sounds like a good idea that may have its uses in high rises. Between what WTFD has found and stories I have heard from elsewhere using a similar setup it is a pretty handy tool for warehouse, church, mall fires, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer
    IMHO, it sounds like a good idea that may have its uses in high rises. Between what WTFD has found and stories I have heard from elsewhere using a similar setup it is a pretty handy tool for warehouse, church, mall fires, etc.

    What's a warehouse, church, and a mall........
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    What's a warehouse, church, and a mall........

    .................

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt790
    We have successfully used our hovercraft as a PPV fan at several fires in churches, factories, etc.

    And the mall fire was mentioned due to the use of a fan boat by my dad when he was IC at a mall fire to ventilate the building.

    Does that help?
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    Also, doesn't Chicago FD have huge smoke ejectors on specialized trucks for this purpose? I remember seeing a picture some where, just can't find one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer
    .................




    And the mall fire was mentioned due to the use of a fan boat by my dad when he was IC at a mall fire to ventilate the building.

    Does that help?

    Again...I ask what a Church, Mall, and a Warehouse is.......Maybe one of the brothers knows what I am getting at.
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