1. #1
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    Post Cat , Cummins , Detroit , Motors ?

    If or when your fire department purchases a new engine , tanker , rescue , or aerial apparatus what make, model ,horsepower motor will you have the builder install in your new rig ?

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    It all depends and after 2007 they will all be shaken up again. More specific information would be nice though. My main thing is not to buy a motor that is running more horsepower than its commercial rating, instead if you need more horsepower buy a bigger motor, you will save in the long run.

    Birken

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    Birken's advice is well taken, especially as the "Fire and RV" ratings are applied to the smaller and mid-range engines. Too much smoke and mirrors being used to make them into something that they aren't.

    All of the mentioned engine builders plus Mack, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo make good products. It's how apparatus builders/salespeople apply (or mis-apply) them that makes the difference.

    As mentioned in a different thread, pay attention not only to the maximum horsepower and torque, but also to their curves and when they peak out.

    One reason we went with Caterpillar because they're the only one that's not using cooled EGR to comply with EPA emissions. Not that EGR's necessarily bad, it's not. It's a proven system. It's just not what I believe to be the best system. Others may make good arguments the other way.

    2007's bringing a whole new world to us. Diesel particulate filters are now going to be part of the equation, no matter whose engine you get. Because of the self cleaning process they're all going to have to go through, especially in applications such as ours, high exhaust temperatures are going to occur. Because of that, I've been suggesting to people that vertical exhausts should be used on 2007 and up.

    Watch out for 2010! All us motorheads need to be reading and paying attention to the trucking industry trade press. "Heavy Duty Trucking" and "Fleet Owner" are two that can be had for free. There's so much to be learned from them.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    I also am a Cat fan because of them getting by with twin turbos instead of EGR. However, for the last two weeks i had a chance to drive an 06 FL Columbia with a 515 Detroit, with Variable Geometry Turbo. VGT is an absolute DREAM!

    My personal opinion on the particulate filters - after the warranty on the truck goes out, remove that junk, straight stack it or find some replacement muffler and conventional Catalytic converter and replace it. I think these particulate filters are going to generate too much heat for trucks that will be sitting still the majority of the time.
    Service is the rent you pay for having space on earth.

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    We're already screwed! 07 engines are being installed now.They are NOT compatible with the 500ppm diesel currently available and from what I've been told it is unlikely that the petroleum companies are going to be able to produce enough of the ultra low sulphur diesel to meet the needs of the new engines.At least in the near short term.And VGT turbos are great;until they have a bad spell(true of any turbo)but the VGT seems to go bad on a more regular basis than the older versions.We've already replaced the one on the "mini" and it isn't three years old yet. We'll stay with the ISM Cummins,they've worked well and it allows some standardization of spare parts. T.C.

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    At last word, the actual 07s with the trap aren't going to be out until the first day of 07 because of the cost and hassle. But the order books are closing fast if they haven't already.

    The law also states that within a few months, the ultra low sulfur diesel will have to be available. It will be in the pumps long before we see any engines that actually require it.

    The Cat thing has been a big hassle since day 1, they did not just add another turbo, they made just about everything on the motor even more super-complicated than is normal for Cat, and that is saying something. EGR is lousy but a much better solution in my estimation.

    Birken

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    My understanding is that all of the engine builders will be producing 2006 diesel engines right up to and including Dec. 31. Some will even be able to get a little way into 2007 because of EPA credits. But Birken's right, the order books for 2006s are pretty much already closed. That's because the diesel engine builders already have in hand orders for everything they can produce between now and then.

    Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is supposed to be available everywhere by then. It's supposed to be in California now. (Birken?) October 1 for the rest of the country. There are technical problems with distribution though that are making that shaky.

    Another thing to watch out for is engine oil. A whole new (more expensive) oil spec has been created for the new engines. Not everyone's new oil will be "backwards compatible." If you change your own oil, make sure you have the right oil. You might have to keep two different oils on hand. Talk to your supplier. If you have a commercial service doing your oil changes, make sure they're using the right stuff. If you farm out the oil changes but add your own make up oil, make sure you have the same stuff they use.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    Detroit S60 with Jake brake for us, horsepower depends on the application. Our 1997 pumper has 470HP and our 2002 midmount tower has 500HP. I believe our new heavy rescue will also have 500HP. The amount of braking power the Jake has on the S60 is phenomenal, you hardly have to use the service brakes at all.

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    My info on the fuel comes right from the oil dealers.Apparently there has been a couple problems in the production of the 15 ppm fuel.They (dealers)anticipate problems with the quantity/distribution of the "new"fuel.I'm also concerned with how the "new" fuel will affect the older engines.It was my understanding that the builders were phasing in the 07 powerplants starting in July.Probably makes a difference what you are buying.Like anything with "government" involved,it's hard to get a straight answer. T.C.

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    Default Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel

    The potential availability problems with ULSD don't appear to be in refining as much as distribution. Refineries are producing ULSD now or soon will be. Most products are transported from their source to local distribution points via pipeline. An article in the May, 2006 issue of "Light & Medium Truck," an American Trucking Associations publication points out that those same pipelines are used to transport a variety of other products. Many of those are not low sulfur, most notably home heating oil.

    A major concern is how much contamination will be picked up from the pipelines, tank farms and transfer points. If a shipment of ULSD is determined to be out of spec, it would have to be downgraded and not available for highway use as ULSD. That, in turn, could conceivably lead to a spot shortage.

    Another article in the June 2006 issue of "Heavy Duty Trucking" magazine likens the whole thing to the changeover from leaded gasoline to unleaded.

    Both articles should be of interest to any motorheads like me if you can get your hands on them. "Lubes 'n' Greases" magazine has gone into it in a lot more detail. They've also written some really good stuff on the new engine oils that will be needed.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 06-19-2006 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    My info on the fuel comes right from the oil dealers.Apparently there has been a couple problems in the production of the 15 ppm fuel.They (dealers)anticipate problems with the quantity/distribution of the "new"fuel.I'm also concerned with how the "new" fuel will affect the older engines.It was my understanding that the builders were phasing in the 07 powerplants starting in July.Probably makes a difference what you are buying.Like anything with "government" involved,it's hard to get a straight answer. T.C.

    The builders will not be building the 2007 engines until absolutely the very last instant because they are many thousands of dollars more expensive than the old ones. The fuel is getting phased in though and it remains to be seen how that will work. But it is backwards compatible though they speculate it might cause leaks, however that is what always gets said.

    Birken

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    We have been running the 12.6 Detroit with ratings from 430 to 470 hp but with the problems with injectors and turbos we are moving into the 14.0 Detroit with basically the same hp and torque ratings. In talks with the local Detroit mechs they suggested the 14.0 litre. A good setup should take into consideration more than just hp but torque, trans gearing and type and rear axle ratios as a package.

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    The smallest new truck is a heavy rescue with a 475HP Detroit. The rescue-pumper and the new twins all have 500 Detroits, the Quint has a 515 Detroit. The trucks the twins are replacing are 370 Detroits, and while they seemed adequate at the time, the wear on the lighter weight motor and tranny are showing after only 6 years. The new ones are all built for 12 years front line, 8-10 reserve.

    The only truck we have with a Cat was underpowered from the start at 300HP, so it had problems by design.

    And they told us for the twin order that as long as the crank went into the motor by midnight Dec 31st it could be a 2006 EPA motor.

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    Birken,You and I are like two old mountain goats.We both know our way around and at least on my part,I enjoy knocking heads with you.Your problem, however, is you don't understand there are TWO mountains.One is yours and is on the LEFT coast.One is mine and is on the RIGHT(EAST) coast.Now this is where ya gotta pay attention: Smog starts where?.........California! And winds up where?........Maine! Freaked up fuels start where? Think hard now,......yes, you can say it,California and wind up?..........Maine,but diluted,unusable or unavailable. We still got Lombard log haulers and Stanley steamers here and I'm NOT talking about the carpet cleaners.Not everything that comes from CA. is good(although not all of it is bad)Plus you can't even get terminology right:Water haulers(trucks)are TANKERS,Water bombers are AIRCRAFT.Tenders my kazoo.And happy cows come from California 'cause their eating all the whacky weed in Berkley.Did this help you at all? Hehe T.C.

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    Remember I am in Northern California which ought to be its own state. California is a backwards state; everywhere else South is better than North and West is better than East but in the State of California the opposite is true.

    Anyway back to the subject of motor vehicle fuels. Here is a link to a document that explains it in a simple manner. I guess we are supposed to already have ULSD here in Ca but I don't think the switch is actually complete yet. But youse guys (did I say that right?) are supposed to get it by October. BUT, the fact of the matter is UNLESS YOUR ENGINE HAS A PARTICULATE TRAP, it does not need the ULSD. And no engines as of yet are being shipped with them.

    HOWEVER, watch out for states to require them to retrofit on older vehicles! ($$$$) Oh the joy....

    Birken

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    Mehopes they build 'em with trap doors.I think they're gonna need them. T.C.

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    I think the new fuel is mainly going to be a problem with the older diesel engines, especially anything that has an injector pump. I like Cat but i dont fully agree with ACERT. Yeah twin turbos woohoo but they are in series so if the first one fails then you are out some major bucks. No they may not say they are using "EGR" but who do they think they are kidding. They are still recirculating exhaust, the only difference is they are doing it in the head while everyone else is doing externally and with more which is why they have to cool it down first. Mercedes claims that they only have to make software changes to their engines for them to be 07 compliant. Honestly they are probably more prepared and technologically advanced than anyone else. Detroit is following them. The epa is cutting the 2007 emissions by 90% in 2010 and Detroit has already anounced they are doing away with the 60 series and basically co-designing an engine with MBE. If i had to buy an engine for fire apparatus in 2007 i would go with the C-15 paired with Cats new over the road auto trans. The main reason being the software compatability. Allison builds a good product but the fact is there software does not get along with cats. The only thing that is worse is Cummins. There software does not get along with anything, not even WABCO ABS. Not talkin bad about Cummins just sayin we have seen alot of software issues.

    Now what i wanna know is i heard an interesting rumor the other day and maybe someone who keeps up with the light duty stuff can confirm or deny it. What is Ford coming out with to meet 2007 emissions? I was told it was a 6.5 liter with twin turbos. Any truth to that?

    Anyways, take it easy guys.

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