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  1. #1
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    Default So its still ok to burn the American Flag?

    WTF....Shouldnt this have been passed a long time ago? Yeah- I know what youre gonna say, its "freedom of speech, expression, etc..."

    But to burn the stars and stripes? Can you express your self any other way?

    Note- If I do see you burning the American flag infront of me, I, me and the other Firehouse forums members will put it out. (including Mini-Me)

    Here is the link to the news story-

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13579789/?GT1=8211

    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 06-28-2006 at 02:57 AM.

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    As a veteran I have to say that burning the flag disgusts me.

    That being said, it is a method of speaking freely and I do not think that it ought to be banned.
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    Actually there was something about this on the radio the other morning. And yes, it is still allowed under Freedom of Speech.

    However, I agree with DaSharkie - it is disgusting and dishonorable, in my books. Even if its not my Flag, I still feel that way. Thats my pennies worth.
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    The First Amendment protects your right to speak and it ends there - it doesn't absolve responsibility for what you say. If you make slanderous statements, the government cannot intervene. However, you can still be sued in a court of law by the victim if what you said was untrue.

    Burned flag = arrest for arson & public endangerment - it's the law.

    Is the ACLU prepared to fight for the notion that burning items is an acceptable form of free expression? What happens when flags aren't enough?

    Knowing our politicians, they'll likely come up with a flag burning permit...
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    How did an ammendment guaranteeing all Americans the right to freedom of speech mutate so that all forms of goofy freedom of expression are now included. I read the ammendment several times and I don't see anything in print guaranteeing everyone "Freedom of Expression". This is how the few morons are allowed to get away with this act. Where and how do you draw the line on what is or isn't Constitutionally defined freedom of expression?
    There was a time when we as Americans respected our flag, we were taught how to diaplay it and how to fly it and understood that even though it is just a piece of cloth, it really is a living symbol of who we are, what we stand for and how we die to protect the freedoms dear to us.
    Today I see Athletes using it as a sweat rag around their necks after their events, its printed on napkins that are thrown away, it's printed on underwear so we can sit on it all day, its burned, stepped on and just down right overall disrespected. This is what we have been brainwashed into tolerating today as acceptable forms of freedom of expression. I could go on but there is just not enough space. How many of you have seen the new trend, the flag with something else printed on it? I recently say our flag with a NASCAR drivers logo printed over the stripes.
    The problem is that we as Americans have stopped caring. Maybe it's time for all of us to turn this around ? Ok, ok I'm off the soapbox.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerman17
    How many of you have seen the new trend, the flag with something else printed on it? I recently say our flag with a NASCAR drivers logo printed over the stripes.

    That's not new -- I've even seen military insignia (not the pre-WW1 official colors, but Army, Navy and Air Force seals and EGAs among other things). Then there's the guy with the Panhead or (for cryin out loud) CB-750.

    I still think you guys are right about the freedom to do it. However, I still think if you don't have a burn permit you're in violation. Likewise. depending on the circumstances and location it could be considered a provoking gesture.

    Overall, I think there are more important things to worry about.
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    Just saw this on yahoo

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060628/...flag_amendment

    Flag amendment fails by single vote

    By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer 45 minutes ago

    The narrow defeat of a proposal to ban flag desecration marks the second time in a month Senate Republicans have lost bids to amend the Constitution in ways designed to inspire social conservatives to vote in the midterm elections.

    The 66-34 tally on the flag amendment Tuesday was one less than the two-thirds, or 67 votes, required to send it to the states for ratification. The House cleared the two-thirds threshold last year, 286-130.

    Sponsored by Sen. Orrin Hatch (news, bio, voting record), R-Utah, the amendment read: "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."

    A proposed amendment earlier this month to ban gay marriage suffered a more decisive defeat, killed on a test vote.

    Winning isn't the only goal for those measures or other social policy proposals congressional Republicans will bring up this year in an effort to energize their base of voters.

    House Republicans intend to hold votes this summer and fall touching on abortion, guns, religion and other priority issues for social conservatives, part of an attempt to improve the party's prospects in the midterm elections.

    The "American Values Agenda" also includes the gay marriage amendment, a prohibition on human cloning and possibly votes on several popular tax cuts.

    The flag amendment's cliffhanger defeat a week before Independence Day represented Congress' response to Supreme Court rulings in 1989 and 1990 that burning and other desecration of the flag are protected as free speech by the First Amendment to the Constitution.

    Senate supporters said the flag amounts to a national monument in cloth that represents freedom and the sacrifice of American troops.

    "Countless men and women have died defending that flag," said Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., closing two days of debate. "It is but a small humble act for us to defend it."

    Opponents said the amendment would violate the First Amendment right to free speech. And some Democrats complained that majority Republicans were exploiting people's patriotism for political advantage.

    "Our country's unique because our dissidents have a voice," said Sen. Daniel Inouye (news, bio, voting record), D-Hawaii, a World War II veteran who lost an arm in the war and was decorated with the Medal of Honor.

    "While I take offense at disrespect to the flag," he said, "I nonetheless believe it is my continued duty as a veteran, as an American citizen, and as a United States senator to defend the constitutional right of protesters to use the flag in nonviolent speech."

    Among possible presidential contenders in 2008, six voted yes: Democrat Evan Bayh of Indiana and Republicans George Allen of Virginia, Sam Brownback of Kansas, Frist, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, and John McCain of Arizona. Five, all Democrats, voted no: Joseph Biden of Delaware, Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, Christopher Dodd of Connecticut, Russell Feingold of Wisconsin, John Kerry of Massachusetts.

    The Senate also rejected an alternative put forward by assistant Democratic leader Dick Durbin of Illinois. It would have made it against the law to damage the flag on federal land or with the intent of breaching the peace or intimidation. It also would have prohibited unapproved demonstrations at military funerals.

    The House meanwhile passed by voice vote a measure that would bar condominium and homeowner associations from restricting how the flag can be displayed.

    Sponsored by Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (news, bio, voting record), R-Md., the resolution would prohibit those groups from preventing residents from displaying an American flag on their own property. The Senate is considering whether to bring up the measure this year.

    It's unclear how many of the controversial bills might clear Congress and reach President Bush's desk. Still, political strategists argue that by bringing controversial issues to a vote, one party can broadly emphasize differences with the other on an issue such as abortion, and increase the determination of its own supporters to go to the polls.

    For their part, Democrats maneuvered successfully last week for a Senate vote on raising the minimum wage. Sen. Harry Reid (news, bio, voting record) of Nevada, the party's leader, said Tuesday they would "do everything within our power to stop a congressional pay raise from going through this year, and we're going to tie it to minimum wage."

    ___

    The proposed flag amendment is S.J. Res. 12.
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    I dont really care who's flag it is. I think its just WRONG. Seems to me a flag burner is out for one thing: inciting a riot. And he'd get one from me. Right after I knocked him down for being a jerk.

    Wars get started over such things. It just ain't right.
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    See what I mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    As a veteran I have to say that burning the flag disgusts me.

    That being said, it is a method of speaking freely and I do not think that it ought to be banned.
    Exactly. The worst arguement I heard for it yesterday was that we would not allow anyone to burn or distroy the Capitol or the Washington Monument, two symbols of this great country, so we should not let them burn or distroy the flag that symbolizes us either. Huge difference, first of we don't let anyone distroy public property of any sort. Burn one of the flags circling the Washington Monument and you will be charges with distruction of property. Buy your own flag and your own internal moral gauge should tell you to treat it with respect, but if you think that burning it or tearing it up in public is the only way that you know of to state your feelings, then you should be able to do what ever you want to the property that you bought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7
    Actually there was something about this on the radio the other morning. And yes, it is still allowed under Freedom of Speech.

    However, I agree with DaSharkie - it is disgusting and dishonorable, in my books. Even if its not my Flag, I still feel that way. Thats my pennies worth.
    There are lots of things in this world that is disgusting and dishonorable, half the stuff on TV and the radio and half the jokes told in the fire house. That does not mean that being rude or a jerk should be banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    The first picture in this thread made me laugh. They are brave enough to burn the flag, but the chicken**** have their faces covered.

    I like this picture better-
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    I may not agree in burning any nations flag out of respect, but its a right which we give and they also have the right to remain silent when they are arrested for arson.
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    You can burn the American flag but you cannot flush a Quran down a toilet.

    What's up with that?

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    The Yahoo article says it best. With the war flailing. Economic policy a disaster, GOP's trot out issues like flag burning and gay marriage to distract the citizenry from their failures. The other great red herring is illegal immigration. But that's for a different upcoming day.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    The punishment for flag burning should be deportation. Love it or leave it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    The Yahoo article says it best. With the war flailing. Economic policy a disaster, GOP's trot out issues like flag burning and gay marriage to distract the citizenry from their failures. The other great red herring is illegal immigration. But that's for a different upcoming day.
    So your saying that this is only an issue because the GOP is using it to distract the public? Umm, where have you been for the last 15 or so years (probably longer) that flag burning has been an issue? We all know that the media would NEVER use something like this to slam a political party right?

    Flag burining is wrong, there is no way to justify it. You can try and polish it by claiming freedom of speech but there is no way to make it ok to desicrate the American Flag. I'd like to see them stand eye to eye with someone that invaded Normandy and set that flag on fire.

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    Flag Burning a red herring? Since the 60's when people were burning it in protest????

    (that would the 1860's when US flags were being burned, trampled and spit upon by other americans).

    Oh and immigration? I came from an area affected by illegal immigration, and let me tell you, if its not delt with soon, you are looking at potential riots. No joke its that bad. Both Dems and Reps are in on this one.

    Not to mention when you roll up on a fully involved shack and its got 30 people in it, its a mess to deal with

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    I find it ironic that our men and women die in the name of our American flag, only to have it burnt as a symbol of "Freedom of Speech".
    Why is it, if the American flag is an American symbol and it is, that, if I go to DC and spray paint the Lincoln Memorial, I can be arrested, charged, convicted and fined for my actions, even though I think it falls under "freedom of speech", but I can burn the flag and that's OK?
    And when I think of the lives that have been lost...
    Remember all the movies where you NEVER let the flag touch the ground?
    At one time, there was that much respect for the American flag. But like the National Anthem, it is just a blip on the radar screen.
    Don't forget the couple who were told by the neighborhood association that displaying the flag was "unsightly".
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Why is it, if the American flag is an American symbol and it is, that, if I go to DC and spray paint the Lincoln Memorial, I can be arrested, charged, convicted and fined for my actions, even though I think it falls under "freedom of speech", but I can burn the flag and that's OK?
    Because it is property that doesn't belong to you. Try setting fire to one of the flags of the Washington Monument and see what happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkfd7505
    So your saying that this is only an issue because the GOP is using it to distract the public? Umm, where have you been for the last 15 or so years (probably longer) that flag burning has been an issue? We all know that the media would NEVER use something like this to slam a political party right?

    Flag burining is wrong, there is no way to justify it. You can try and polish it by claiming freedom of speech but there is no way to make it ok to desicrate the American Flag. I'd like to see them stand eye to eye with someone that invaded Normandy and set that flag on fire.
    See it worked. You're all wound up over it to the exclusion of all else.

    I have to admire the work of pros who know how easily it is to distract people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    See it worked. You're all wound up over it to the exclusion of all else.

    I have to admire the work of pros who know how easily it is to distract people.
    Oh I'm not excluding anything, I'm simply sticking to the topic of the thread, which is "is it ok to burn the American Flag?". I just used the opportunity to point out my disagreement with your "It would not be a big deal if things were going well for the GOP" attitude. The fact that people burn the flag may not bother you, but it bugs the hell out of some of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkfd7505
    Flag burining is wrong, there is no way to justify it. You can try and polish it by claiming freedom of speech but there is no way to make it ok to desicrate the American Flag. I'd like to see them stand eye to eye with someone that invaded Normandy and set that flag on fire.
    First off I don't appreciate flag burning any more than anyone here but what exactly makes it "wrong"? It is wrong to murder, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to falsely accuse but what leads one to declare something like this "wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    I find it ironic that our men and women die in the name of our American flag, only to have it burnt as a symbol of "Freedom of Speech".
    Why is it, if the American flag is an American symbol and it is, that, if I go to DC and spray paint the Lincoln Memorial, I can be arrested, charged, convicted and fined for my actions, even though I think it falls under "freedom of speech", but I can burn the flag and that's OK?
    And when I think of the lives that have been lost...
    Remember all the movies where you NEVER let the flag touch the ground?
    At one time, there was that much respect for the American flag. But like the National Anthem, it is just a blip on the radar screen.
    Don't forget the couple who were told by the neighborhood association that displaying the flag was "unsightly".
    What's it coming to?
    CR
    Huge difference, first of we don't let anyone distroy public property of any sort. Burn one of the flags circling the Washington Monument and you will be charges with distruction of property. Buy your own flag and your own internal moral gauge should tell you to treat it with respect, but if you think that burning it or tearing it up in public is the only way that you know of to state your feelings, then you should be able to do what ever you want to the property that you bought.

    People who tie the flag to their condo porch railing are being unsightly and disrespectful of the flag.

    No life is lost for the flag, lives have only been lost defending what the flag stands for, and one of those rights is the freedom to express yourself however you wish, no matter how rude you might be, as long as it does not physically hurt anyone else, or distroy the property of anyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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