07-01-2006, 07:01 PM #1
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
While searching through a department's website, I came across an ARFF truck. This caused me to think about some questions I don't know the answer to. Here they are:
1.What kinds of ARFF apparatus are there, and what are there responsibilities?
2. Is it possible if you don't have the money, to just use regular fire apparatus at an ARFF call?
3.I heard a rumor that the FAA will pay for a department to acquire an ARFF piece of apparatus. Is this true?
4.Is there any governing body that determines what type of ARFF apparatus you have at the airport? An example would be that at the local airport, (international airport that hosts aircraft I believe only up to the size of a 737) the ARFF station there responds with several 8 wheel drive trucks, in part because they cover an ANG base. Could you respond with the same apparatus at a small light aircraft airport, say in the size range of a cessna?
5. If I were to try to outline the capabilities of an ARFF apparatus at an airport, what would they be, ranging from a light craft airport to an airport the size of JFK or LaGuardia?
Thanks for any help you can give me in answering these questions, aviation is a passion of mine, and I'd like to know what protective capabilities there are when it comes to certain size airports.
07-02-2006, 12:42 AM #2
I know that the FAA dictates certain response benchmarks on airport grounds, i.e. - rigs must be able to be at specific points on the grounds within specific timeframes, etc.
I also know that the rigs required are also determined by the aircraft that operate from the field, etc., and that the FAA does indeed provide some monetary assistance for rigs, but the amount and such I don't know.
For example, my local airport is commercial, probably four flights a day on larger commercial jets, quite a few UPS flights daily and general aviation. Their ARFF fleet is an F-550 RIV, a larger 6x6 Oshkosh rig and a fairly old (at least 25 years) Oshkosh rig that I presume would be a reserve.
I know someone with my knowledge will chime in. I would think the FAA would have some sort of guidelines published on the net somewhere.
07-02-2006, 12:54 AM #3Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
"Everybody Goes Home"
07-03-2006, 01:51 PM #4Originally Posted by PeteySt1
07-04-2006, 01:02 AM #5
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
what I meant by outlining the capabilities of an ARFF department such as that of LAX, DFW, etc., is what kind and how many of each would I need to cover the amount of airplanes that fly in and out each day and night? I read the response about getting away with just something like an f-550 mini pumper, and that kind of disturbs me, to think that if my flight crashed upon landing, the airport's fire department could get away with just responding in a piece that small. I might be blowing things out of proportion, but that's my interpretation of your response. Doesn't NFPA have a recommended # of personnel that should be first due to the Alarm? I heard that they have a recommended # of personnel that should respond to a structure fire ( i believe the number is 15), so why not have one for ARFF? I understand that ARFF is about 90% of just giving the passengers and crew some time to self-evacuate, but don't all ARFF trucks have some sort of handline? I remember reading one website that said this one apparatus ( oshkosh striker) had a dual agent 1 3/4 reel line. Could you explain this to me, as when I think of a reel line I think booster hose. Is this just regular hose on a reel, mounted in a compartment? Speaking of compartments, I have one last question. Searching through google, I found a company called Colet SVD. They produce the Jaguar series of ARFF vehicles. As I look through the different vehicles, something is bothering me. It looks as though the vehicles are just wide enough to accommodate the water,foam, and what ever other things you put on an ARFF truck. It seems as though the only compartments( if they are compartments) are on the bottom of the truck, behind the cab. Wouldn't it be smarter to make the truck thinner, as to provide more compartment space?
(if you could, could you tell me what kind of handtools you use on an ARFF call?) And as you get to the biggest Jaguar, the KR40, it doesn't even appear that the engine is located in the truck! the KR40 has 5 axles, 3 of which are located in the back, and the last axle seems to be there to support the engine, if that is what it is back there. Could you provide me with your take on this vehicle, and also what you think of the Oshkosh striker?
P.S. this is a wee bit off topic, but what is Space A? I read about it when somebody was referencing flying.
07-04-2006, 10:03 AM #6
Some of your questions could take a book to answer, but I'll try the Cliff's Notes version.
-The number and type of vehicles is determined by gallonage/flow required, and that is determined by the airport index . A good article explaining indexing is here:
There are no manpower requirements, only gallonage. Many large airports exceed the minimums and staff enough FFs to do rescue ops. NFPA does have a recommended standard (NFPA 403), but FAA is law, and is much less expensive.
-ARFF trucks do have 1-2 handlines, but are not commonly staffed with enough FFs to use them. Most ARFF extinguishment is done from the turrets, and the handlines are usually used for interior fires or mopup. Most of the handlines are dual agent AFFF and dry chem, some one or the other. Some are on reels like boosters and others are tray mounted 1 3/4" cotton jacket or rubber hose.
-As far as the size of the trucks, they are wide and low to the ground because all the water tank tends to make them top heavy. There have been numerous rollovers with ARFF vehicles. ARFF trucks are uniquely suited for what they do, and don't require much compartment space. Most airport FDs will have a rescue type vehicle to carry tools, jaws, etc.
-I have seen the Stryker and the Jaguar at trade shows. The ANG base I am a Reserve out of just got a Stryker. Other than the standard "wow", I can't speak to their effectiveness. My personal experience is limited to Marine Corps P-19s and structural apparatus.
-Space A, or space available, is a military term for getting a seat on a scheduled military flight for free. There is a rigid heirarchy of eligibility and priority for who gets on, and there are no guarantees. You might get halfway to your destination and get bumped by someone with a higher priority.
07-04-2006, 01:55 PM #7
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
Per the FAA for FAR Part 139 airports:
Index A for Aircraft <90' and 1 or more departures, 500#DC or HALON 1211 or 450#DC + 100gal of H2O, 1 vehicle is required.
Index B, Aircraft >or = to 90' and <126' and >or = to 5 departures, OR >or= to 126' but <159' and <5 departures: Index A + 1500Gal of H2O, and 1 or 2 vehicles are required.
Index C, Aircraft >or=126' and <159' and >or= to 5 departures, OR aircraft >or= to 159' and <200' and <5 departures: Index A + 3000Gal of H2O and 2 or 3 vehicles required.
Index D, Aircraft >or= to 159' and <200' and <5 departures, OR aircraft > 200' and <5 departures: Index A + 4000Gal of H2O and 3 Vehicles are required.
Index E, Aircraft >or= to 200' and >or= to 5 departures: Index A + 6000gal H2O and 3 vehicles are reqired.
So JFK or LGA would be Index E airports as are most airports with commercial service.
The airport I fly from (RYY) doesnt really have any schedualed service to it but has lots of traffic. There are aircraft ranging from C-152's to G-IV. There is no station actually on the field, the County has a station accross the street with an engine and a truck that can respond pretty quickly. I have been there before when a King Air had a gear problem and made a landing, they had a much larger response for that, 3-4 engines, 1 truck, 1 rescue, 1 squad, 1 BC, 2 ambos all standing by for its arrival.
07-09-2006, 07:42 PM #8
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
many airports have the capability to boost their rating too--if you give 24 hr notice. for instance--if a dignitary was flying to a small local airport near me-which has class A ARFF--them local department would scrounge up a coupe of engines with foam and head on over giving a D rating. thi has nothing to do with the number of flights though.
as for the jaguar--it can go somewhere close to 120mph. and it holds like 4000 gallons of water, some foam, some dry cemical, and if you so desire some PK. it has 2 pull out hand line reels too.
an f550 if used correctly can be very effective. ive seen pictures of new saint lousis units by ansul. they were trainiing with apropane burner. that agent knocked both the fire and pilot light.
if you search MASSPORT public saftey--you can see what boston uses for their class E.
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