1. #1
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    Default Stuck to a hydrant - new lesson

    Do you carry a hose clamp that can handle LDH? We don't.....

    Heard a radio exchange for a neighboring agency today.

    "Dispatch, Engine 14."

    "Go Engine 14."

    "Please dispatch Water and Gas to our location, we are hooked up to a hydrant that we cannot shut off."


    Perhaps the valve shaft failed, I don't know. No matter what the reason, that apparatus was stuck. In a dire emergency worst-case scenario I suppose they could have either wrestled the fittings loose at the hydrant with spanners, or even simply cut the hose right at the hydrant, but realistically that apparatus was as stuck as if someone had pulled the keys out and dropped them in the sewer. Out of service for however long it takes for a Water and Gas guy to arrive.

    Perhaps if the crew had sufficient knowledge of the water system to know which valves to shut off, where the valves were located, the proper tool to operate them, and the authority to do so..... naaah, a big hose clamp was the solution here, but a solution they didn't have.

    We don't carry them either, but I'll bring this up and gauge interest in acquiring one.

    The LT kept his humor about him though. The dispatcher came back and asked for their precise location. He supplied an intersection and then added:

    "....It's the hydrant with the big red fire truck and big yellow hose next to it."
    Last edited by RLFD14; 07-02-2006 at 11:16 PM.
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    Our company always hooks a gate up to the hydrant first then runs the supply off the gate. Once before we had our tower filling up and the hydrant stem jammed open and we waited for three hours for the water company to come. In that time frame we got blown out for a box and they lost the house because our tower wasnt there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truckie8
    In that time frame we got blown out for a box and they lost the house because our tower wasnt there.
    OK, how do I put this without you taking it the wrong way...........

    How do they lose a house "because our tower wan't there"???
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    I suppose if you're really worried about the response time for the water company, special call a Hurst tool (I'd imagine anyones Jaws would to do it...just make sure it's not a combo tool with cutters )

    Clamp the line, cap it off, remove jaws.

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    Normally the shaft rides up and off the nut on top of the valve at the base of the hydrant. You can't get it back on with the hydrant turned on.

    Hydrants are supposed to have a separate shutoff located near the base of the hydrant. This valve shuts off the main leading to the hydrant. Most hydrants are plumbed to a "stub" off the water main. I have known departments to keep a "T" handle valve tool for shutting off a hydrant when all else fails. These valve tools range from 2' to 8' or more in length depending on the part of the country you are in.

    The idea of using a gate valve on the hydrant is the simplest insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    I suppose if you're really worried about the response time for the water company, special call a Hurst tool (I'd imagine anyones Jaws would to do it...just make sure it's not a combo tool with cutters )

    Clamp the line, cap it off, remove jaws.
    Indeed. Another good solution. Thanks, Dal.
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    We have a hose clamp thats supose to be put on when there is someone laying in so that the driver has control over when he has water to prevent the hydrant ff from filling the bed of 5in. But the idea with the rescue tools was brilliant.

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    I also want to know why the house was lost just because the tower wasnt there.

    When we hook up, we hook the hose to the fire side of the hydrant and the gate valve to the non fire side, so another line can be hooked up without cutting off the water supply. We have used a clamp more than once to clamp a hose on a broke hydrant until public works could take care of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245
    I also want to know why the house was lost just because the tower wasnt there.
    In order to keep everyone calm and happy, lets just assume that he meant that because of his hydrant ordeal, the response to the fire was less than a full assignment. With the help of the truck and its crew, a better attack could have been made, possibly making a difference in the outcome. I doubt he meant that the engine crew couldn't hold its own. We do work best with all the members of the team (engine, truck, squad, etc) present and doing their jobs, right? Fair enough?
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    Even if you had a hose clamp, once the LDH is charged, can you clamp it shut with a hose clamp????

    I was under the impression that the hose clamp had to be applied to the hose before it was charged. ????? HRT seems like a good idea

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    I must say I have never had this problem, but most of our hydrants have a shut-off valve somewhere nearby.

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    A LDH clamp can be applied on a charged line. If anyone wants one, we've had one in a closet for the last 10 years or so.

    Should we have a problem as stated above, we would open another hydrant or 2 in the same area, this would drop our water pressure enough that we could fairly easily separate the lines.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    LOL Bones...hadn't thought of that -- opening a 2nd hydrant would certainly work for us, too.

    Heck, speaking from experience... if you try to fill truck tanks after a drill from two hydrants at the same time, you trip the water flow alarms at one of the elderly housing complexes in town due to low pressure

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    Quote Originally Posted by osfd100
    Even if you had a hose clamp, once the LDH is charged, can you clamp it shut with a hose clamp????

    I was under the impression that the hose clamp had to be applied to the hose before it was charged. ????? HRT seems like a good idea
    That would take the whole purpose out of a hose clamp. The most common use I can see for a hose clamp is if you bust a section of hose while it is charged. Clamp the hose on the nearest intact section, bleed line, replace busted section of hose with two good sections and realease hose clamp.

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    Thumbs down Huh?..........

    Quote Originally Posted by truckie8
    Our company always hooks a gate up to the hydrant first then runs the supply off the gate. Once before we had our tower filling up and the hydrant stem jammed open and we waited for three hours for the water company to come. In that time frame we got blown out for a box and they lost the house because our tower wasnt there.
    Your location thingie says you're on the East Coast. And your department ran a call alone, without the next ladder down the street being added to the assignment?? I thought by now, everybody in this area ran Automatic Mutual Aid. We run 4 Engines, 2 Trucks/Towers, and a Heavy Rescue on every structure Fire. Period. No matter where they have to come from.

    Back to the Hydrant thing. Our chances of having an Engine getting caught on a Hydrant are greater than most since we ALWAYS have an Engine hooked up and pumping a supply line to another Engine. Yeah, I said Always. Our operational methods are quite plain and straightforward. The first arriving Engine lays at least one 3" supply line (we don't use LDH) from the hydrant to the Fire. Second arriving hooks up to the hydrant and pumps the line(s) to the First Engine. And it goes on from there with later arriving Engines following the same procedure.

    I've had a bit of experience with broken Hydrants, and our good news is every Hydrant has a shutoff valve between the Hydrant and the Main. This valve is in a Valve Box and is accessible from the ground level with a 5 foot "T" Handle shutoff tool. We also have shut off Hydrants that have been damaged by Vehicle accidents as well. All Ladder and Squad Companies carry these tools, and we have similar valves on our Gas mains also, which allows us to shut them down if needed.
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    That would take the whole purpose out of a hose clamp. The most common use I can see for a hose clamp is if you bust a section of hose while it is charged.

    I think you'll find historically that's only a secondary use of hose clamps.

    In the traditional forward lay from a hydrant, the first thing the driver would do arriving on scene would be to clamp off his supply lines.

    He could then attend to getting the attack lines in service from the booster tank, and then get around to hooking up the supply lines and un-clamping the supply.

    The hydrant man would know whatever the local protocol was for when to charge the hydrant -- especially if the Engine ended up out of his line-of-sight; whether it would be a signal like an air horn; or you simply counted to 100 or whatever. One of my now departed mentors (Cancer like his father had) grew up in a traditional hydranted area and would tell tales of how they would be charging the supply lines slowly before the Engine even came to a stop.

    And that was the bread-and-butter use of them.

    (The department to our north uses them on pump-off style tanker shuttles the same way -- the incoming tankers can dump into a LDH going up the driveway whether or not there ready at the scene)

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    Never heard that before. Kind of interesting though.

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    I have never run into that problem when the engine was hooked to the hydrant. I have had it when we were flowing hydrants, but none the less our DC carries a water cut tool that we got from the water department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    A LDH clamp can be applied on a charged line. If anyone wants one, we've had one in a closet for the last 10 years or so.
    Didn't you try to give that away last year?

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    Yup... and I still have no takers!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Yup... and I still have no takers!

    Hang it on the wall with the rest of the antiques !
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    I am not aware of anyone who runs LDH directly into their pump. They all use piston/gate valves on the side. Therefore

    1. Close the intake valve
    2. Close the tank to pump
    3. Disconnect the intake valve from the pump inlet and leave it on the charged hose that cannot be shut off
    4. Go find a 6" or whatever size intake cap and you are back in business minus your LDH capability.
    5. Call the water department to fix it and bring your stuff back.

    Birken

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    Du'oh @ Birken...

    How come it took 20 odd replies for someone to point out the blitheringly obvious?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    I am not aware of anyone who runs LDH directly into their pump. They all use piston/gate valves on the side. Therefore

    1. Close the intake valve
    2. Close the tank to pump
    3. Disconnect the intake valve from the pump inlet and leave it on the charged hose that cannot be shut off
    4. Go find a 6" or whatever size intake cap and you are back in business minus your LDH capability.
    5. Call the water department to fix it and bring your stuff back.

    Birken
    Give this man a prize. Sometimes the best/easiest idea is staring you right in the face...literally.

    Our dept also carries one of these just in case.


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    okay.... just to clear up the confussion. I am on a volunteer department that covers an area close to 8 miles long and 8 miles wide. The closest department is about 15 minutes response time away. The closest aerial, be it a tower, squirt, stick.... is about 30 minutes away response time. Our department does not carry hose clamps and the box went out while we were filling. There are only three hydrants in the town, other then that.... its all water shuttles. Our first alarm (which was struck out by the first due engine on scene) calls for all our apparatus 2 engines, 1 tower, 1 tanker, and 1 rescue.... with the neighboring company 2 engines, 1 tanker, 1 rescue. If the tower had been there we could have used the smooth bore and did a good stop, probably not enought to save the house, but enough that we wouldnt have to be there all night.

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