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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Volunteers Forced to Quit

    I have friends from volunteer departments in other towns who are older than I am and they are some of the most brilliant fire fighters I have ever had the pleasure of meeting and I have learned alot from them. A couple of them have recently joined paid departments, but the paid departments told them that if they want to be hired, they have to quit their volunteer departments. It is begining to develop a problem because the volunteer companies are losing very experinced and knowledgeable fire fighters and even officers to paid companies. I think this is just wrong and I was wondering if this is happening any where else in the US besides CT.


  2. #2
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shvfr4
    I have friends from volunteer departments in other towns who are older than I am and they are some of the most brilliant fire fighters I have ever had the pleasure of meeting and I have learned alot from them. A couple of them have recently joined paid departments, but the paid departments told them that if they want to be hired, they have to quit their volunteer departments. It is begining to develop a problem because the volunteer companies are losing very experinced and knowledgeable fire fighters and even officers to paid companies. I think this is just wrong and I was wondering if this is happening any where else in the US besides CT.

    If it is part of the contract between the IAFF local and the City, as it is in Hartford, then in order to keep the full time career FD gig, the brother or sister in question must make the choice...

    Hartford's stipulation goes into effect in 2007, if I recall correctly. That gave the surrounding VFD's a couple of years to recruit and train replacements.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    And I have yet to hear any logical reason why they made such a stipulation. I can't think of one either.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    The stipulation is there because the fire figher may get hurt while volunteering at the other FD. I am waiting for the stipulations against working construction, motorcycle riding, or any other risky activitiy while off duty.

    Volunteering as a fire fighter in the community where you work as a fire fighter is prohibited by federal labor law.

    I have yet to hear of any logical reason that makes it possible for a union, through a contract with the city, to restrict the legal off-duty activities of an employee. The only reason that had even the slightest basis in reality ended about 15 years ago. Career firefighters in CT used to have a presumptive heart and hypertension law. Heart disease or high blood pressure in a career fire fighter was assumed to be job related. Several cities and unions had issues with career fire fighters volunteering because of this. If the fire fighter gets heart disease, did he get it from the volunteer town or the career town? Of course, very few of these cities addressed smoking, diet, or lifestyle as factors in heart disease.

    How may posts before this turns in either a career/volunteer slugfest or a residency/non-residency requiement for fire fighters flame war?
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    5 fells like a lucky number today

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    I guess it all depends on the department you are at, but I think there are starting to be too many off duty stipulations. I love my job, but I also love my free time.

  7. #7
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Damn Dead Horse Just Got Up Again.........

    My turn with the Dead Horse thing. Seriously, I need to get a grin early, because my blood pressure goes up whenever this subject comes up. I have 48 years in the Fire Service, all 48 as a Volunteer, and concurrently 4 years working in a fully paid department, 20 years working full time in a combination department. I am now working part time in Fire protection for the State Government. I'm a former member of the IAFF and for the past 18 years, a Volunteer Chief Officer in a very busy Combination Dept. I'll put my position in one sentence: THERE IS POSITIVELY NO REASON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WHY ANYONE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO ON THEIR OWN TIME. PERIOD. Have a great day folks, I'm going out to mow the lawn......
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    whoa, mow the lawn? that might give you skin cancer. Be careful out there in that sun, because if you're not then you might not be able to do that anymore on your time off and ruin it for the rest of us.

    Sarcastic but it's closer to the truth then what it should be. I'll say it again. Your time is your time. If it's legal, go for it if it makes you happy.

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    Just not even worth posting as this subject makes me say things that I usually regret later .....

  10. #10
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I hear a lot of people blame the IAFF, and/or their own local for things like this happening.... I have to wonder, if you are part of "that" group, don't you get a say in it and is it maybe time for you to change your leadership in that/those groups if you are so unhappy?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods
    My turn with the Dead Horse thing. Seriously, I need to get a grin early, because my blood pressure goes up whenever this subject comes up. I have 48 years in the Fire Service, all 48 as a Volunteer, and concurrently 4 years working in a fully paid department, 20 years working full time in a combination department. I am now working part time in Fire protection for the State Government. I'm a former member of the IAFF and for the past 18 years, a Volunteer Chief Officer in a very busy Combination Dept. I'll put my position in one sentence: THERE IS POSITIVELY NO REASON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WHY ANYONE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO ON THEIR OWN TIME. PERIOD. Have a great day folks, I'm going out to mow the lawn......
    In order to preserve yourself in pristeen state for your full time gig: please wear long pants, leather hard soled shoes, safety glasses, earplugs, hardhat, sunblock, a particle mask, avoid using pesticides, take frequent breaks in the shade or other cool place and drink plenty of water as you mow the lawn.
    Really; I worry about you during your off hours.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    I have to wonder, if you are part of "that" group, don't you get a say in it and is it maybe time for you to change your leadership in that/those groups if you are so unhappy?
    It is not that easy to change the leadership. Every union member has a say, at least in my former local, as to the general proposals for a contract negotiation. If the majority of the membership wants to include language in the contract governing certain off-duty activities, then the entire union has to live with it. The city really does not care, especially if a) it does not cost anything, and b) some real or imanginary cost savings is attached.

    If an individual member cannot influence a change on a single contract item, then he certainly cannot expect the members to vote out the leadership based on that issue. If the majority (half the membership plus one) is happy with the current leadership, then they will get re-elected.

    Sometimes the best you can do about an issue is to bring it up every time the contract is up for negotiation, make a good case, and eventualy you may get the majority to back you on the change.
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  13. #13
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    Don't you guys have some pretty good rights of freedom and expression, to be able to do what you want, when you want..? Would'nt contracts between Cities and Unions be unconstitutional? Seems like some folks make the rules to suit themselves...

    PS Harve, is'nt your lawn underwater right now?
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  14. #14
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    I could definitely be wrong about this however i believe here in NJ they bar career firefighters from volunteering only in the town they are career in or in one that may provide mutual aid. This goes back to a lawsuit years back about a certain individual trying to obtain overtime pay for working mutual aid with a vollie company in the town he was career in. And also remember here in NJ we arent generally IAFF, Its the FMBA and NJPFA, so everything could be different in that situation altogether
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  15. #15
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    DING DING ....round 890856028973358096753068956
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    A lot of this law is set on a state-by-state basis, Martin. So you have a couple broad ways it's done, and 50 nuances.

    Most southern and interior western states do not have "collective bargaining" so while the firefighters have the right to organize under federal law, the cities can tell them to go pound sand in response to their requests.

    The west coasts, upper midwest, and northeast (basically, the traditional manufacturing areas) do have collective bargaining, forcing the cities to negotiate with the unions...and usually sending them to "binding arbitration" if agreement isn't reached.

    Under Federal Law, you can't make union membership a condition of employment. However, when you have collective bargaining, the non-union members can be made to pay a fee to the union conducting collective bargaining to cover those negotiation costs.
    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 07-03-2006 at 07:52 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyjoe83
    I could definitely be wrong about this however i believe here in NJ they bar career firefighters from volunteering only in the town they are career in or in one that may provide mutual aid. This goes back to a lawsuit years back about a certain individual trying to obtain overtime pay for working mutual aid with a vollie company in the town he was career in. And also remember here in NJ we arent generally IAFF, Its the FMBA and NJPFA, so everything could be different in that situation altogether

    That would be the Garcia Law.
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  18. #18
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Yeah, Thought So ..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1
    DING DING ....round 890856028973358096753068956

    We just knew that you were counting. Thanks.

    In calculating the total, did you use a Smoothbore Calculator or the Fog version. And was it compatible with Leather, or Tupperware? Have a great Holiday, I'm off to a Parade.
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  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber TruckSkipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyjoe83
    And also remember here in NJ we arent generally IAFF, Its the FMBA and NJPFA, so everything could be different in that situation altogether
    Just to clarify a point the NJPFA as you put it or the PFANJ (Professional Firefighters Association of New Jersey) and the IAFF are one in the same. The PFANJ is the IAFF's sanctioned state Firefighters Association. You can't be a member of the PFANJ unless you are a member of the IAFF.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods
    We just knew that you were counting. Thanks.

    In calculating the total, did you use a Smoothbore Calculator or the Fog version. And was it compatible with Leather, or Tupperware? Have a great Holiday, I'm off to a Parade.
    Did you use the red or the yellow calculator?
    -------------------
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    Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

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