1. #1
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    Default Methods Of Bailing Out A Window with Rope ...

    I was just wondering what kind of methods were taught to you on how to bail out of a window with a rope.

    What I am looking for are the types of knots you would use, what you would tie off to, etc. I know there is no hard and true answer to this since every situation is going to be very different, but just looking for some different ideas that people have been taught or have used in the past.

    Thanks

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    Tie a simple figure 8 on a bight with a safety knot at the end of the rope, and put a carabiner throught the bight. To anchor we use a halligan or pick headed axe, with the pike driven into the wall beside a window. I then take the carabiner and pass a loop of rope through it which goes over the forked end of the halligan onto the shaft. (I know you shouldn't side load a carabiner, but, if I am doing this I am not going to be getting that 'biner back anyway) Wrap the bail out rope around my back and cylinder, grab both ropes with both hands and out the window I go. Pretty simple and straight forward. Just make sure your hands will clear the window sill.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    I carry a rope bag and have 2 caribiners on 1 end,and one on the other . I clip 1 on the waist adjustment of my turnout pants and that stays on there all the time,and I click the other one onto it.I put one on the other end of my bag and then put it in my pocket. My mindset is if things go to sh#$ all I have to do is unclip the 1 off of the 1 attached to my pants, clip it to the tool or what not and toss the other end out the window, make a few adjustments and out the window you go.I usually carry the denver tool anytime I'm inside or have a pack on. You can slide the clip on the handle and set it in the corner of the window out you go.I have also seen people take the haligon set it in the floor and clip onto it also.Pretty much any thing you can get on as an anchor point will work.

    If you ever get the chance to go to the Firehouse Expo take the FF Survival class it's done by Chief Salka. The class is awesome. You'll learn alot and if you have any ideas to make something better they'll listen to you and talk about it witch is pretty cool they are good people!

    Since were on ff survival stuff have you ever tried the hose bailout? I like it ,but my complaint is ,is it realistic in a situation when you need to get out now. My thoughts are it's hard enough to get the hose to the fire just to put it out, then you need to pull a bunch more just to get out the window. I just don't think it's realistic,but you could probally do anything when your *** is on the line. I like to get ladders up on atleast 2 sides of the fire bldg. and all my people have rope bags and are taught ladder bail outs rope bailouts and other survival methods.These are just my thoughts and what I teach my people. BE SAFE!!

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    Default Bail out

    I've yet to have to try any of these in a real situation. However from some of the training material that I've read over I think the most practical method would be to drive a halligan tool down through the drywall. Then slide the rope down over th tool (figure 8 on a bite). Then run the rope through a carabiner, loop it over the long side of the carabiner a 1-2 times to provide the friction needed and out the window.

    In a training and equipment familiarization drill I did, I tied did the figure 8 on a bite looped it over a heavy timber cross beam and then looped the working end of the rope through the carabiner a couple of times and rappelled out the 2nd story of our training facility.

    Worked well.
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    Thumbs up Self rescue knot?

    Don't know if this is still taught/shown/encouraged(have seen plenty of blank looks when I have mentioned it)

    Way back in my Training school days(1962) we were shown this knot--theoretically you can self rescue yourself from 300 feet (or 30000ft)building with a 50ft rope--is this still taught?

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    please do share more. I am perplexed

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    Thumbs up Self rescue knot

    Quote Originally Posted by swfire42
    please do share more. I am perplexed
    This goes against all of those silly "nanny state-don't do it" directives--if your ars# is burning --you will do it.

    50ft line--get the middle-pass the bight of rope underneath and over the top of a secure object--steel window frame-balcony pipe etc.

    You now have the bight and two legs hanging down--pass either the left or right piece of rope thru the bight ---put about a foot or more thru--pull on the other piece of rope until it tightens push that piece up thru the loop--and pull down on the other leg until it goes tight--THIS IS THE ONE YOU GO DOWN ON.

    When you get down to the next level --yank sharply on the other leg and the rope comes down---keep going until you get to safety. I, luckily, have never had to use it in anger--but have tried it at one storey height, at the back of the drill tower--and it works.
    I have been sitting here with a piece of string tied round the upright of the "poota" table trying to get the sequence right--easy to do in practice but hard to explain. Must admit I thought every fireman knew this.
    I was taught this at Southwark Training School, London--1962
    Last edited by 2andfrom; 07-08-2006 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2Capt
    Tie a simple figure 8 on a bight with a safety knot at the end of the rope, and put a carabiner throught the bight. To anchor we use a halligan or pick headed axe, with the pike driven into the wall beside a window. I then take the carabiner and pass a loop of rope through it which goes over the forked end of the halligan onto the shaft. (I know you shouldn't side load a carabiner, but, if I am doing this I am not going to be getting that 'biner back anyway) Wrap the bail out rope around my back and cylinder, grab both ropes with both hands and out the window I go. Pretty simple and straight forward. Just make sure your hands will clear the window sill.
    This is exactly how it is taught in FF Survival class here. If you carry the rope ready to deploy, with the 'biner already attached, this is a very fast escape.
    Jim

    Lieutenant
    East Glenville FD eastglenvillefd.com

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    You could also forgo the "'biner" and just do a body wrap. Most firefighters are of a stout stature and the friction created from the line around the turnout coat is close to, if not better than those little rescue eights on the market.

    Which ever device you decide to use practice using it. See how easy and quickly you can deploy it while blindfolded, wearing gloves, on air, with the low air alarm going off and your training officer using your helmet as a drum yelling at you as loud as he can "You're going to die," repeatedly. That is what made me ditch the eight. If I have time I'll mutner hitch a ride down.

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    Talking Crossed wires

    I must admit I did give a cursory read at the post(but failed to take in)--but "carabiner" --which in my time we would not have recognised if you dropped a sackful of them on your head--"Halligan tool" LFB have never used this thing-again would not have known what it was--as for the "buried axe head in the sidewall"--if you have to go down 15 floors-thats 15 axes secreted about your person!

    Please remember guys I am going back 44yrs!

    Yeah I know--dodderin'old twit(as you will be, God willing-one day)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2andfrom
    I must admit I did give a cursory read at the post(but failed to take in)--but "carabiner" --which in my time we would not have recognised if you dropped a sackful of them on your head--"Halligan tool" LFB have never used this thing-again would not have known what it was--as for the "buried axe head in the sidewall"--if you have to go down 15 floors-thats 15 axes secreted about your person!

    Please remember guys I am going back 44yrs!

    Yeah I know--dodderin'old twit(as you will be, God willing-one day)
    2andfrom

    You aren't a doddering old twit.. you are just doddering and old and still here to share some valuable information!

    I have a 50 foot length of rescue rope with two carabinersstashed in the panbts pocket of my bunker pants... I hope I will never have to use it!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2andfrom
    Don't know if this is still taught/shown/encouraged(have seen plenty of blank looks when I have mentioned it)

    Way back in my Training school days(1962) we were shown this knot--theoretically you can self rescue yourself from 300 feet (or 30000ft)building with a 50ft rope--is this still taught?
    It sure would work, just requires a bit of concentration to avoid that other leg. That sounds like what they taught us in NJSP heavy rescue school years ago as a "John Wayne" hitch. The cowboys tied their horses up in the movies with them, thats how they made the quick getaway with one pull. However, I will defer to the LFB for credit, seeing as you learned that before I turned 1!

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    Talking The Duke

    Halligan84--I really like the "John Wayne" idea! In future I will always have a mental picture of the Duke, in firegear of course, explaining this knot.

    CapGonzo-like you I never had to use it in anger but then its just like health insurance--you buy it hoping you don't need it.
    As I mentioned I have tried it under non-combat conditions-it worked, and all these years later it is still in the back of the brain--to paraphrase somebody else"Train harder-fight easier"

    To all of you that are active in the field-Stay Safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2andfrom
    "buried axe head in the sidewall"--if you have to go down 15 floors-thats 15 axes secreted about your person!
    15 axes in the gear is a possibility, search some of the many "what do you carry in your gear" threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84
    15 axes in the gear is a possibility, search some of the many "what do you carry in your gear" threads.
    Do hope that this is a leg pulling exercise!Fifteen axes is a big parcel. On a similar note I remember thinking a "flick knife" would be a good idea in my fire tunic pocket--you know one hand , need a blade click, there you go---wrong, big time!

    Jumped off a low wall in a working job-click-bloody thing opened in my pocket--managed to stab meself!

    Solution was to get my personal issue axe honed to a very shap edge--always keep it to the K.I.S.S principle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    I have a 50 foot length of rescue rope with two carabinersstashed in the panbts pocket of my bunker pants... I hope I will never have to use it!
    That is definiately the simplest and easiest system to carry and use. I don't like fancy systems that require serious assembly and practice to use. The chances of making an error in that stressful situation climb dramatically.

    Our "original" bail out kit was simply one of our SRT throw bags with a biner on the end. Anchor as available, Wrap around you Dulfer style, and rappel down (Old-school, thanks to old Royal Robbins).

    I have spec'd 4 new Draegar SCBA with the bail-out kits as well for delivery next month, so I'll see how they work out over the next few months and probably post up some training pics.

    The current standard is using an axe/haligan into the wall adjacent the window frame, but if that cannot be breached (i.e. concrete, stone, HD sheathing, etc.), you can also angle the axe/haligan handle at a 45 degree across the lower corner of the window. Not as stable but when facing a flashover... And if you don't have an axe or tool, you could also use a chair leg, desk leg, or any other long item that you can wrap your rope around and could be wedged off the frame.


    As for the comment on having to go down 15+ floors, that is the most extreme situation for the commercial high-rise environment. Most of us just need to get below the fire floor and make entry onto a deck or through a lower window. You should not have to recover and rappel all the way down in most situations (because if you have 10+ stories of fire involvement, you shouldn't be above the damn fire anyway!).


    (And it should go without saying, but make sure you train with an approved safety belay in addition to your bail-out system. Bail-out kits are NOT OSHA compliant for training.)
    Last edited by mcaldwell; 07-10-2006 at 05:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5
    You could also forgo the "'biner" and just do a body wrap. Most firefighters are of a stout stature and the friction created from the line around the turnout coat is close to, if not better than those little rescue eights on the market.

    Which ever device you decide to use practice using it. See how easy and quickly you can deploy it while blindfolded, wearing gloves, on air, with the low air alarm going off and your training officer using your helmet as a drum yelling at you as loud as he can "You're going to die," repeatedly. That is what made me ditch the eight. If I have time I'll mutner hitch a ride down.
    The carabiner is to be used as an anchor attachment, such as in the instance that a steam radiator is located directly below the window I am planning on bailing out. Wrap around me, click into the anchor and out the window I go. We do not have any harnesses or escape 8s. This is the same method the NYS Fire academy has been teaching for 5 years or more. The major recommendation I make is make sure you have fire gloves that fit you, because if they do not and you cannot grab the rope you will be landing hard .
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Thumbs up Theoretically--key word!!

    [Way back in my Training school days(1962) we were shown this knot--theoretically you can self rescue yourself from 300 feet (or 30000ft)building with a 50ft rope--is this still taught?[/QUOTE]


    macaldwel---read my post again--it contains the word "Theoretically".


    As in the Irish Space construction team going to the Moon--they run out of scaffolding at 96,000ft--but theoretically they would have got there -eventually.

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    I two was taught to slide a fig 8 over the handle of a haligan or an ax, then wrap the rope around the lower part of your air pack and bail out the window. Something that no one has mentioned, yet I am sure most do, is before you bail out the window undo your waist strap on your SCBA and then buckle it between your legs. After you buckle it, tighten it up some. This will insure that you don't slide or fall out of your SCBA. I figured that it was just a step people didn't think to mention, but I wanted to so that anyone reading about this technique for the first time would know to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1
    I two was taught to slide a fig 8 over the handle of a haligan or an ax, then wrap the rope around the lower part of your air pack and bail out the window. Something that no one has mentioned, yet I am sure most do, is before you bail out the window undo your waist strap on your SCBA and then buckle it between your legs. After you buckle it, tighten it up some. This will insure that you don't slide or fall out of your SCBA. I figured that it was just a step people didn't think to mention, but I wanted to so that anyone reading about this technique for the first time would know to do it.
    Never undid the waste strap during self extraction drills. The bulk of the force is directly into my back when I am walking down the wall. During RIT type extractions where the FF is unconscious or injured the waist belt always becomes a harness. Fortunately I have never had to use the bail out training in anger. Hope to never have to in the future either, but I keep training on it.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    I was taught that the proper name for the "self-rescue" or "John Wayne" knot is actually an "English Bowline". It was developed in WW2 by British commandos. They left so many ropes behind after missions that they started to run out of ropes. This knot was invented so they could retrieve their ropes when they finished a rappel.

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    Hey guys.... when reading over this I was thinking of a method that could work, but never tried it yet. Also haven't been to FF safety and survivial (need to soon).

    How about turning your SCBA into a harness. (Waste strap going under your leg.) tying one end of the rope to your straps, then from there, have the rope wrapped around the haligan in the wall a couple times for friction. Then going over with the rest of the rope in your hand, decending yourself.

    The problems I see with this is knowing how many times to wrap the rope. Too many, you dont go anywhere fast. To little, you might just drop. It seems to me this would be great if practiced. What do you guys think?

    EDIT:
    One thing I can see as a problem is if you get to the end of the rope. You would have to hold onto it. For our town, we dont have much larger than 2 stories. For other towns, if you hanging out the window, it wouldn't be the best thing.
    Last edited by Lieutenant516; 07-12-2006 at 03:45 PM.

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    The problem with not having control of the friction device is that you cannot fix a jam or other problem (i.e. speed adjustment as you mentioned). If the rope bound up on itself, you could hang there until it burned through.

    Also, as you mentioned, it halves the available length of your rope. You don't want to have to carry 100 feet of rope "just in case". That's a lot of extra bulk and weight to fuss with.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Cool Slight tangent

    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15
    I was taught that the proper name for the "self-rescue" or "John Wayne" knot is actually an "English Bowline". It was developed in WW2 by British commandos. They left so many ropes behind after missions that they started to run out of ropes. This knot was invented so they could retrieve their ropes when they finished a rappel.
    Commando's--you have reminded me of something else--Landing Craft mounted Turntable Ladder's(machine gun fitted to head) principle being, drive up beach, elevate,extend and use aforesaid machine gun to secure cliff top--WW2.

    I am pretty sure I have seen a photograph of this set-up, somewhere.Can anyone help supply information?

    Don't fancy being the machine gunner!

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    We have class a harnesses in our bunker pants, so this is one option. Also you could just wrap the rope around your body put the two together in your hand and go. Or the last option would be a bowline around your body. I know how to do and and very efficient at it but it is a pain to describe to someone.. hope this helps. Also what about head first ladder bails. You almost always have a ladder set up at some window right...in a perfect world. Also in most cases all you need to do is get outside and below the window...so 50 ft is a little excessive. I carry 30 ft. with a figure 8 and beener on one end and the other end free...
    Last edited by FastStangXXX; 07-12-2006 at 10:24 PM.

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