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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Default Israel and the Rest of the World

    Israel gets hit with over 100 bombs and the world is calling for Israel to be civil and to use restraint!
    I say it's time to turn the dogs loose with the support of the United States.
    Please read:
    MSNBC.com


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Israel destroys Hezbollah headquarters
    Offensive against infrastructure continues, Hezbollah leader unharmed
    BREAKING NEWS
    MSNBC News Services


    Updated: 12:36 a.m. CT July 14, 2006
    BEIRUT, Lebanon - An Israeli air strike destroyed a main Hezbollah office in Beirut’s southern suburb as Israel tightened its seal on Lebanon Friday.

    The Israeli army blasted the Lebanon’s air and road links to the outside world and bringing its offensive to the capital to punish Hezbollah — and with it, the country — for the capture of two Israeli soldiers.

    Warplanes again smashed runways at Beirut's airport with hours of airstrikes, trying to render it unusable, and destroyed mountain bridges on the main highway to Syria. Warships blockaded Lebanon's ports for a second day.

    Smoke drifted over the capital after strikes exploded fuel tanks at one of Beirut's two main power stations, gradually escalating the damage to Lebanon's key infrastructure. Apartment buildings were shattered by strikes in south Beirut.

    Hezbollah said the home of its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, were destroyed by an Israeli airstrike but that he and his family were safe. The Israeli army chief said the military operation in central Beirut did not target Hezbollah leader Nasrallah.

    Death toll rises
    Lebanese guerrillas responded by firing a barrage of at least 50 Katyusha rockets throughout the day, hitting more than a dozen communities across northern Israel.

    The death toll in three days of fighting rose to 73 killed in Lebanon — almost all civilians, including five killed in strikes Friday — and 12 in Israel, including a mother and daughter killed in a rocket attack. The violence sent shock waves through a region already traumatized by the ongoing battles in the Gaza Strip between Israel and Hamas.

    Israel's strikes on the airport and roads and naval blockade all but cut off Lebanon from the world, while hits on infrastructure aimed to exact a price from its government for allowing Hezbollah to operate freely in the south.

    At the same time, strikes on Hezbollah — including ones targeting its leadership in south Beirut — aimed to pressure the Shiite Muslim guerrillas to release the Israeli soldiers captured Wednesday and push the militants away from Israel's northern border.

    President Bush, in Russia for the G-8 summit, spoke by phone with Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora, and "reiterated his position" that the Israeli attacks should limit any impact on civilians, White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

    At an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting requested by Lebanon, special envoy Nouhad Mahmoud warned that Israeli attacks "will not resolve the problem, but will further complicate it." Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman said Israel had no choice but to react to the "absolutely unprovoked attack" by Hezbollah.

    Diplomatic efforts
    Meantime, the United States appeared to be starting diplomatic efforts to rein in the crisis on the third day of Israel's massive assault on Lebanon, sparked by the Hezbollah capture of two Israeli soldiers.

    Lebanon's Western-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said President Bush promised to pressure Israel “to limit damage to Lebanon ... and to spare civilians and innocent people from harm,” according to a statement from Saniora’s office.

    In Lebanon, 73 people have been killed in Israel's bombardment, mostly Lebanese civilians, including three who died in south Beirut early Friday, police said. On the Israeli side, eight soldiers have died and two civilians were killed by Hezbollah rockets.

    Israel's offensive had several goals: to pressure Hezbollah to release the Israeli soldiers, to push the guerrilla group away from Israel's northern border and to exact a price from Lebanon's government for allowing Hezbollah to operate freely in the south.

    The Lebanese government has asked the U.N. Security Council to demand a cease-fire. Israel says it holds the government responsible for Hezbollah's actions, but Saniora's Cabinet has insisted it had no prior knowledge of the raid and that it did not condone it.

    Fears of wider war
    The sudden burst of violence sent shock waves through a region already traumatized by Iraq and the ongoing battles in the Gaza Strip between Israel and Hamas. It shattered the relative calm in Lebanon that followed Israel’s pullout from its occupied zone in south Lebanon in 2000 and the withdrawal of Syrian forces last year.

    Fears mounted among Arab and European governments that violence in Lebanon could spiral out of control.

    "We consider the situation to be very bad and there is the continuing possibility that it could worsen; that the conflict could expand, especially to Syria," said Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja of Finland, whose country now holds the EU presidency.

    Syria supports Hezbollah and plays host to Hamas’ political leader Khaled Mashaal.

    Also Friday, Jordan's King Abdullah II met in Cairo with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in a hastily-called meeting to discuss the escalating violence.


    Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said any Israeli attack against Syria would be an aggression on the whole Islamic world and warned of a harsh reaction, the official Iranian news agency reported Friday.

    The agency said Ahmadinejad made the comments in a telephone call to Syrian President Bashar Assad.


    Beirut airport runways hit
    Throughout Friday morning, Israeli fighter-bombers pounded runways at Beirut's airport for a second day, apparently trying to ensure it was shut down after the Lebanese national carrier, Middle East Airlines, managed to evacuate its last five planes to Amman despite earlier strikes. One rocket hit close to the terminal building.

    Another barrage hit fuel tanks at one of Beirut's two main power stations. Some parts of the capital were already seeing electricity outages before the strike, which was likely to worsen the power shortages.

    For the first time in the assault, strikes targeted neighborhoods in south Beirut, a stronghold of the Shiite Muslim Hezbollah's leadership. Warplanes rained missiles on roads in the capital's suburbs, knocking down an overpass and damaging another.

    Earlier, Israeli planes dropped leaflets in Beirut suburbs and some southern cities urging residents to stay away from Hezbollah offices, fuelling speculation that the group’s charismatic leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, could be targeted.

    Rocket strike deep inside Israel
    In northern Israel, some 220,000 people hunkered down in bomb shelters even before the Haifa alert Friday amid Hezbollah's barrage of rockets.

    At least 20 rockets hit the towns of Safad and Nahariya, where two people were killed a day earlier, as well as the town of Hatzor and the communities of Nurit and Ezen Menahem. At least 11 people were wounded, bringing the number of Israelis hurt in the rocket fire since Wednesday to more than 60.

    The attacks raised to about 185 the number of rockets that have hit northern Israel in the last 48 hours, including two that struck Haifa, said army spokesman Capt. Jacob Dallal. The attack in Haifa, the deepest target Hezbollah has ever hit in Israel, was likely to increase the sense of public insecurity in Israel and pressure Israeli forces to step up their offensive in Lebanon.

    In Lebanon, Israeli warplanes blasted the highway between Beirut and Damascus — Lebanon's main land link to the outside world — forcing motorists to take mountain side roads to the Syrian capital. Warships also shelled the coastal highway north of Sidon, slowing down traffic considerably but not actually cutting the road, witnesses reported.

    ‘A dangerous game’
    Israeli planes also hit transmission antennas for local TV stations in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a Hezbollah stronghold. Anwar Raja of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command said the planes struck the communications towers, but did not hit the guerrillas' base at Qousaya.

    The Israeli offensive was causing political waves in Lebanon, with some anti-Syrian politicians accusing Hezbollah of acting unilaterally and dragging the country into a costly confrontation with Israel.

    "Hezbollah is playing a dangerous game that exceeds the border of Lebanon," Druse leader Walid Jumblatt said in comments published Friday.

    But Jumblatt, a leading anti-Syrian figure, also denounced the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, calling them completely unjustified.

    Israeli officials said the campaign by the air force was the biggest since the Israeli invasion in 1982. The only comparable military action since then was the “Grapes of Wrath” offensive in 1996, also sparked by Hezbollah attacks.

    The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
    URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13853565/


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    © 2006 MSNBC.com
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  2. #2
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    Post escalation

    As much as I hate to think that this whole mess is going to create a global war I think it is inevitable at some point. These people have been fighting each other for centuries. The muslim people have been fighting themselves for centuries over the variances in their religious factions. Now that we are and have been involved in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and so on it only fuels the fire that exists between us as a Christian infidel country and the much hated Israeli's by the muslim world. One of the the things that bothers me is how stable are the muslims who have migrated to live in other countries? Is this anything like the Kingdom of Heaven? I am not holding judgement on the whole matter but I think that there are those who want an all out war. Do I hear Armageddon?

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    The events in the middle east over the past 48 hours will bring a lot of global tension to a head.

    Make no mistake about it.

  4. #4
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    I have no problem giving Israel moral support. But I am tired of watching my tax dollars supporting this action.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #5
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Default

    But SC, until Hexbollah got in power last election we gave coin to both sides. I agree, no money to either one of them.


    Both sides need to grow the hell up. I agree with a radio talk show host this afternoon.....Do not think for one second that those in Syria and Iraq are not watching and controlling Hexbollah very closely since they get their funding from them.

    And the "Palestinians" will never stop asking for more. They want everything, but only state parts of it at a time. Oil will go through the roof again. We'll see $4 a gallon by the end of September for no reason at all.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    and yet I thought Iraq was all about the oil.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    Default

    I say it's time to turn the dogs loose with the support of the United States.

    Ummm.... we've been supporting them for nearly 40 years.

    There will never be peace there. UN took land that wasnt theres and gave it to Israel, taking land away from the Palestinanes (i cant spell) who basically took it from Israel thousands of years ago.

    No one will get along.

    Of course, Israel does whatever it wants just about. See: Adolf Eichmann, Klaus Barbie, The 1972 Olypmic scandal, and the France-Iraq Nuclear Reactor scandal.

  8. #8
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    And don't think for a moment this has *nothing* to do with the increasing pressure on Iran over their nuclear program.

  9. #9
    Forum Member adamkhalil's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    ** deleted **
    Last edited by adamkhalil; 08-27-2007 at 11:09 PM.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkhalil
    For some reason the US is the only country not able to understand that an air force comprised of 900+ modern-day aircraft attacking a country, which does not even have a single fixed wing aircraft in its military, for the actions of a terrorist faction within that country, is not fair.
    Perhaps you misunderstand warfare. The decision to fight or not is a political one. Right or wrong, once the decision to engage the enemy has been made, "fair" goes out the window.

    I hope that no U.S. service personnel are ever allowed to engage in a fair fight - overwhelming numbers and superior firepower is the order of the day.
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  11. #11
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    1. This land that didn't "belong to them", did in fact belong to them for a couple of thousand years. The UN gave them back what was rightfully theirs.

    2. Hezbollah is not simply a terrorist group operating within Lebanon. They are an integral part of the Lebanese government.

    3. Israel did not instigate this recent battle. Terrorist groups entered their country and kidnapped 3 of their soldiers. Arguably, it was an act of war. Imagine what it would be like if a terrorist group had crossed the Mexican border and kidnapped US soldiers. I do not think that any reasonable person could blame Israel for defending itself.

    4. The Palenstinians have a history of never being happy with anything. With the exception of Syria, and now Iran, they are generally considered parasites by the Arab world.

    5. The news is reporting this AM that the missile that hit the Israeli warship was fired with the assistance of about 100 Iranian troops inside Lebanon. The missile was manufactured in Iran.

    6. Ahmedinijad has vowed to wipe Israel off the map. They do not, as of yet, apparently have nuclear capability. I fear that once Israel confirms the information about this missile, they will strike to make sure that they don't.

    7. Regardless of your political affiliation, I think one has to recognize that this is far more serious than a little regional conflict. It is possible that this is the beginning of, as someone put it, a global conflict. Or in other words, a world war.

    8. I have a 19 yoa son and I am very afraid.

  12. #12
    Forum Member BFDNJFF's Avatar
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    How about the article covering the recent UN resolution to denounce Israel's attack as using "disproportionate force"? Did anyone notice that the vote was 10-1?
    I guess Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstaining makes them good guys?

    Isreal has a right to protect herself and has been having civilian casualties for way to long with people holding them back. They are just fed up and the soldiers being taken is just the straw that broke the camels back.
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  13. #13
    Forum Member adamkhalil's Avatar
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    Default

    ** deleted **
    Last edited by adamkhalil; 08-27-2007 at 11:10 PM.

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    Could the potential for gas prices to rise happen?
    NEVER FORGET!
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  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    If terrorist organizations were a mouth, then Hezbollah and Hamas are cavities.
    You might want to rethink this one.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkhalil
    5. The news is reporting this AM that the missile that hit the Israeli warship was fired with the assistance of about 100 Iranian troops inside Lebanon. The missile was manufactured in Iran.
    I haven't seen these reports. The missile was fired last night local time, and from what I’ve read it was a lucky shot with some 'unmanned aircraft.' I can't imagine what that'd be since most of Hezbollah armament is 1960's era katyusha rockets.
    This is probably the most interesting happening so far. According to media reports, the weapon was a C-802 anti-ship missle. That's a Chinese weapon that has been exported around the world and is very similar to the French Exocet or American Harpoon. The warhead is a little bigger than the Exocet but a little smaller than a Harpoon. Iran has developed and deployed a modernized, enhanced range version. It is a modern, sea-skimming, fire and forget missle. Further proof that advanced systems were used is that the missle that missed kept going, struck, and sank an Egyptian civilian vessel. That's how these type weapons work, once the seeker head goes active it searches until a suitable target is found.

    These weren't point, shoot, and hope an enemy gets in the way weapon. Whoever conducted those attacks had to be extensively trained. Since the weapons almost certainly came from Iran, that probably means Iranian military personnel were operating them.

    For what it is worth, if I were the folks that shot those missles I wouldn't be throwing a success party. In the Falklands, every British ship hit by Exocets sank. In the gulf, an American frigate hit by an Exocet very nearly sank. The Israeli ship that got hit was 1/3 the size of these English and American warships yet it survived in, according to the latest reports, apparently pretty good condition with steering and operational capability restored. An American Harpoon would have quite literally blew the ship in half. The Egyptian ship sank, but it held on long enough for the entire crew to escape. It sounds like neither warhead detonated. If I were in Iran today, I would be very concerned about my antiship capabilities.

    I think it is very possible that this conflict could go regional, but I don't see it going any further. Quite frankly, Iran is very limited in what they can do because significant forces would have to get past our Iraq-based forces and that just ain't possible. They do have submarines, which would be a serious threat to the Israeli navy but couldn't otherwise contribute much of anything.

    I also think Dal's right. Iran is 100% behind all of this, stirring the pot to distract the world's attention from their nuclear program.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Since the weapons almost certainly came from Iran, that probably means Iranian military personnel were operating them.
    C'Mon. Since they were Chinese Missles, the Chinese must be operating them, right?

    And those Stinger Missles in Afganistan were fired by Americans?

    Let's not forget all the hardware Iraq got from the US during the Iraq/Iran conflict.

    Are the Israeli F-15s being flown by Americans?

    Are the Patriot Batteries manned by us?

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    I have a 19 yoa son and I am very afraid.
    I know how you feel. When I told my wife our son had to register for the draft at age 18, she told me, "You're was crazy, there's no draft".

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E229Lt
    C'Mon. Since they were Chinese Missles, the Chinese must be operating them, right?

    And those Stinger Missles in Afganistan were fired by Americans?

    Let's not forget all the hardware Iraq got from the US during the Iraq/Iran conflict.

    Are the Israeli F-15s being flown by Americans?

    Are the Patriot Batteries manned by us?

    I don't quite know how to take this post. My point was to refute adamkhalil's assertion that this was simply the IDF beating up on an enemy armed with old weapons and no outside support. Since you brought it up, however, the Patriot missile is a good analogy. In 1991, when Scuds were falling on Israel there were indeed Americans manning the batteries. Likewise, when the Redeye and Stinger missles were introduced there were certainly CIA operatives training the Afghans, if not actually firing the weapons. In the same vein, when the MiG-15 first appeared over Korea in that conflict, many were actually flown by Russians. Whenever a new sophisticated weapon rapidly appears in the hands of a force that has not previously demonstrated the ability to operate similar systems then you can bet someone's showing them how to make it work.

    Israel has used F-15s for decades, so they don't need to have American pilots. I am unaware of any significant US military hardware operated by Iraq before, during, or after their war with Iran. No planes, tanks, missles, rifles, artillery, etc. They almost exclusively used French, Chinese, and Russian systems. The only folks we supplied were probably the Iranians. They were using mostly US stuff left over from the days of the Shah and likely got covert parts and stuff on the side (remember Iran-Contra).

    I'll bet Israel is particularly concerned about this missle's appearance. Iran has been working on a land attack version - ala the US Tomahawk. Those in the hands of Hamas would be a dire threat.

    Finally, to those that think Israel has no right to respond with overwhelming force I want to pose a hypothetical question. What do you think would be America's reaction should rebels, drug lords, or some other group start launching rockets and other attacks into the US from Mexico or Canada and the host government was unable or unwilling to stop them? You know full well what it would mean - war using the full force of our military without regard of how the host country or the rest of the world felt. That's the exact situation Israel faces every single day.

  20. #20
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840
    Finally, to those that think Israel has no right to respond with overwhelming force I want to pose a hypothetical question......That's the exact situation Israel faces every single day.
    I have no problem with Israel defending itself. But why do we have to pay the freight? An example being a coupla weeks ago the Israelis, in a bid to deprive Palestinians of all basic necessities of life, bombed a power plant in Gaza, one which Enron build in 1999 and was insured by OPIC (Overseas Private Investment Corporation), a US government-run agency to aid in overseas investment. So that's another $48,000,000 of insurance money the U.S. taxpayers get to pony up, thanks to Israel.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-15-2006 at 07:54 PM.
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