1. #21
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    Default Tools, tools, tools

    Like the American Express Card, I never leave home without my halligan.
    A wise old instructor once told me a FF with no tools is just a civilian with protective clothing and breathing air.

    On the other note about using the hoseline as a FE.... I've got nothing???

    Be safe
    Bryan

  2. #22
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    If that technique works for you by mule kicking the door then thats your technique. Thats ok for inward swinging doors, what's your technique for outward swinging doors. Have I done it before, yes I have, but still prefer the using the proper tools they have not failed me yet. I guess it's all about what you think is the right way. Common senes you bet. Please Define a standard house fire. As for the "RABBIT TOOL" the hydra ram is a rabbit tool it's just a one piece tool rather than the two piece boat anchor carried in a bag. FDNY forced over 1000 doors during the first WTC incident using hydra rams, and during the black out they forced over 200 doors with the hydra ram. We purchased one for each truck company and our 2 heavy squads and they have been used alot with out any complaints. STAY SAFE

  3. #23
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    Cap:

    You are taking this way too personal. My remarks were made in jest regarding the first post. Have I kicked doors in....yes....will I continue to kick doors in.....yes, if I don't have a set of irons, halligan, axe, ram, "rabbet tool", K-12, Vent Saw or the truck company present. Is there a proper way to force entry.....absolutely, but this entirely depends on your still, town, district, types of construction, socio-economic status of the area, high-rise, low-rise, single-family, multi-family, new construction, etc.....That is how most everyone I know chooses their weapon of choice.

    How do I force an outward swinging door? Again, it depends on what area of town I am going but it could be my axe, irons, knife, or K-12.

    Use your head and stay safe. Again, firefighting is more than reading a textbook or going to a few drills. If you think the nozzle idea works, then try it, but find a number of ways that work for you or your company and use them. The more tools in the toolbox, then the better off you will be.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

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    Ok, I not in the business of bashing you or am I taking this personnal. We all have our ways of taking care of business, I'm one for not using my body to do the job that tools were designed for. So if you feel like I am bashing you I'm not and I'm man enough to applogize. Your in a department that sees alot of fires and you do whats best for you in your situation thats your choice. Again, I agree with some of your statements, this job is more about reading texbooks and going to a few drills. We have buildings that the 8lb maul is our tool of choice due to the type of door, and some have up to 3-4 deadbolt locks attached, and in some areas a set of irons, hydra ram are the tools needed. I'm still not sold on the nozzle technique. Common sense is in our tool box. STAY SAFE it's all good!!!!!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fdsq10
    Please Define a standard house fire.
    A couple of heron users lighting the bed on fire, it spreads nicely and when you get there you have fire blowing out the windows on the third floor of a three flat, you know, a standard house fire.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Ok, Thanks. STAY SAFE!!!

  7. #27
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    Cap:

    Thanks for the clarification! I did forget the maul (sledge) and it is a great tool, I need to add that to my list.

    My favorite standard house fire is a molotov cocktail through the front picture window because it burns hot, fast and usually has a pretty good head start. Nobody like to go to a fire with only one room going!

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    A couple of heron users...

    Man, that stuff is bad for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    ...on the third floor of a three flat...
    Is that the same as a triple decker? I asked in this thread , but I never got an answer.

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    Default heron users

    thats funny i don't care who you are.
    J

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    I don't think they are suggesting using the water stream, as that would be a recipe for a serious kick in the ***, but rather the rigid hose line with the nozzle as the battering ram.

    There is no reason it wouldn't work, as the hose is both heavy and rigid if applied straight and level with a rapid motion.

    I don't know that I would want my guys using a new $1500.00 automatic to do it though (at least when there is a haligan on the truck). But hey, another tool in the box...
    It may be another idea to consider but like you said" New $1500 automatic"....
    Anyone suggesting using a nozzle of any price as a battering ram should try it first and then tell the rest of us how it worked out,when he showed the jury rigged FE tool to his officer.
    I don't know how I could justify beating the tar out of a nozzle to open a door when even a hose team should carry an axe or hallagan to open doors so's we could spray water into the fire.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    A couple of heron users ....
    Local dialect for heroin. Maybe it doesn't translate around the rest of the country.......

    Three flat = three story building, 20 ft wide (usually, standard Chicago lot is 25x125), three separate units - one per floor
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  12. #32
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    It is like a "soft battering ram".

    You are not going to smash down big heavy doors but it will help you when you are on your knees and works good if you have two people on the line.

  13. #33
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    ok..well just to add fuel over here, I have in fact used a nozzle as a FE tool, and well, it turned out just fine. Heaven didn't burn, Hell didn't freeze over, I didn't break a 1500 dollar nozzle and the door opened just fine. Keep in mind, it was a cheaper wood slab residental front door. but hey, what the hell..
    The good thing about this job is that we have done so much, with so little, for so long that we can do everything with nothing...... which is what is wrong with this job.
    KTF | DTRT

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    Is a "soft battering ram" in the same category as a "dark light beer" and "jumbo shrimp"?

  15. #35
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    The quickest way to force an inward-swinging door is to kick it in or use a battering ram. Forcing them with an axe and halligan takes too much time in my opinion and usually requires more than one try. Rabbit tools are great, but they are great for doors set in metal jambs. When you use the rabbit tool on a wood frame door, the stop ends up failing before the door is forced open the most of the time.

  16. #36
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    Default Wow!

    A battering ram? I have one on our Rescue and that is where it sits. It is too heavy and very limited in use. Too much time to use a axe or bar? How about training with the tool to know what it takes and how long it will take to force the door. Residential doors can be forced using technique and a little bit of a** put behind the bar. A properly trained Firefighter with a Halligan bar can force a door with ease. You bring your batterring ram, I'll bring my Pro-Bar. Rabbit Tools are for commercial doors, and arent meant to be used on wood frame doors. Can they be used for inward residential doors, sure but how about a Halligan. What about "try before you pry".

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    You're telling me that one firefighter can easily force a residential dead-bolted door in a rabbeted jamb with just a halligan? You must have some real Hulk Hogans on your department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdurkin44
    You're telling me that one firefighter can easily force a residential dead-bolted door in a rabbeted jamb with just a halligan? You must have some real Hulk Hogans on your department.

    Im willing to bet that EVERY member of my dept. can force a residential deadbolted door with just a halligan. And I think many on these forums can say the same.

    And how exactly do you plan on controlling the door after you've rammed it with your battering ram? If you force the door, with no hoseline ready yet, and cant control the door, then what? If the public hallway in a MD isnt that charged, most of us wont put on our facepiece until we have forced the door. After we force it, we CONTROL it, and mask up. Without control of the door, you just decreased anyone's chances of survival inside that door, and if you are in a apt complex, you just put everyone trying to evacuate from above the fire in harms way.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdurkin44
    You're telling me that one firefighter can easily force a residential dead-bolted door in a rabbeted jamb with just a halligan? .
    Yupe...that's what he is saying.....and I can second it.
    IACOJ Member

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdurkin44
    You're telling me that one firefighter can easily force a residential dead-bolted door in a rabbeted jamb with just a halligan? You must have some real Hulk Hogans on your department.
    Am I missing something here?

    A good mule kick will take most residential doors, so why wouldn't a halligan work? The halligan is under used. Many times you won't even damage the door or the frame if you work it right.

    With the inward moving doors, I think I lay down a little damage, even if I use a semi-gentle method with the halligan.

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