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    Default Forcing entry with a hoseline

    I am looking at a textbook i have and it says the following paragraph.

    The value of a charged hose line to force entry or effect ventilation should be remembered. When locked doors are encountered, they can be forced open by putting the nozzle against the door at the level of the lock, straightening the hose line , and pushing it against the door. The damage is not great and the procedure is safe. A straight stream or solid stream at ordinary pressure can break window glass and provide ventilation-a method that is quick and can reach many windows in a short time.

    I understand the ventilation part of things but I fail to understand the entry part. Can anyone help me out with this deal?

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    Talking

    Must be running a fog nozzle. I can't see trying to "straighten" a line with a SB. Kinda like pushing cooked spaghetti. I know I'd like to bash a few automatic nozzles into a door, so we could replace them cheaper with better weapons.

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    mcfd45:

    I believe what the textbook said was "hold the pipe, turn and face opposite of the door, and mule kick directly underneath the knob with your boot. Guaranteed to work 80%-90% of the time on residential doors.".....or at least that is how I interpreted it.

    rfd599
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    In my brief experience,I've never heard of using a hoseline to force a door.We were always taught to carry a hallagan and flathead axe to force doors we found in the way.
    Wouldn't pushing the nozzle against the door invoke Sir Isaac Newton's Third Law of Motion"...any action will have an equal and opposite reaction"?That means if you push a nozzle against a door and open the bail,you would be pushed back away from the door,wouldn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    I am looking at a textbook i have and it says the following paragraph.
    Could you please let us know which texbook this was??? It sounds like something that I would not do personally!!!!
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    Come on thats what they make forcible entry tools for, and why would you MULE kick a door to force it open, what about control of the door, 80 90% of the time it works. How about a hydra ram or hallagan tool 100% of the time .I'm sorry, as an officer I would not teach nor allow my crew to perform in that manner. I'm with firenut name that book!!!!!. STAY SAFE

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    The textbook is "Firefighting Principles and Practices" by William E. Clark. 2nd edition page 274. No pictures, nothing, just the above paragraph. I understand the mule kick thing I wear a size 13 so it might help. Maybe like a battering ram? I don't think they mean to open the bail.

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    Veeeeeryy interesting....

    But I wouldn't do it.

    Having different tools in your mental toolbox is always a good thing, so keep the info in your head, but I'd use it as a last resort.

    Bring the irons.

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    i am taking college courses in fire science with meridian cc and i have that same book. i took a look and there it was, page 274 in the "engine company operations" chapter. i dont understand it either.

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    I don't think they are suggesting using the water stream, as that would be a recipe for a serious kick in the ***, but rather the rigid hose line with the nozzle as the battering ram.

    There is no reason it wouldn't work, as the hose is both heavy and rigid if applied straight and level with a rapid motion.

    I don't know that I would want my guys using a new $1500.00 automatic to do it though (at least when there is a haligan on the truck). But hey, another tool in the box...
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Ok, how many 2 man nozzle teams carry FE tools?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Do carry fe or should carry fe? We usually throw an axe in the scba belt, its not a complete set, but its a start.

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    why wouldn't you carry tools with you. once you get the fire knockeddown you need to start overhaul and in my mind the halligan is the best overhaul tool i have ever used.
    J

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    why wouldn't you carry tools with you.
    Ok, guess I should quantify my question... For those that operate as Engine company and Truck company, how many 2 man nozzle teams carry FE tools?

    My engine company handles the hoseline, they don't force entry, they don't use hooks to overhaul, they don't use saws to open things up....that is truck company work. On the engine company, nozzle man has the nozzle. Backup man backs him up. There is also a door man and a control man. Their main job is the handline. FE, ventilation, search, rescue, etc. is all part of the Truck company job. Depending on who it is, you might find the engine company officer with a pry-axe.

    IF you don't operate this way, then I could see your nozzle team carrying tools, but it's got to be difficult and slow them down in moving a handline while carrying so much. But hey, if it works for you, have at it.


    We usually throw an axe in the scba belt
    That is a doable option.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I see your point with the truck company. most here are suburban departments without set companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdsq10
    Come on thats what they make forcible entry tools for, and why would you MULE kick a door to force it open, what about control of the door, 80 90% of the time it works. How about a hydra ram or hallagan tool 100% of the time
    If the truck is busy, I have no problem kicking my own door in and have done so many times. Why wait? As for door control, it is rare that that is an issue in a standard house fire. If the room is rolling - well, I do have a hose. Spray some water and call it a day.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Small dept here, so our hose teams do carry thier own FE tools most of the time (and also search, but that's another thread ).

    At least an axe is always brought, but many prefer the Pry-axe or Haligan. I don't argue as long as they get the job done.

    Whatever works for your crews...
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Chicago FF:

    Ditto your thoughts....in a perfect world the truck is already on scene and has popped the door. We are fortunate enough to catch a fair amount of fires in Rockford and I have never worried about controlling the door. That is not to say something couldn't happen.....but I have never seen it. I have been assigned to both a truck and an engine. When assigned to the ladder I carried the irons, my axe, and the TIC and when assigned to the engine I carry my axe and the knob. You can force the door a dozen ways with different tools, but with most residential doors a quick kick will do the trick.

    In response to the hydra-ram, we take the "rabbet tool" to open doors in our high rises, low rises, and housing projects. This works well but is very time consuming when opening mutliple doors.....i.e. we caught a good fire at a three story motel/extended stay filled with vagrants, drug dealers, and prostitutes. On arrival, we had people hanging out of mutliple windows. One engine and ladder company laddered the building to rescue victims in the windows. We made entry and four of us kicked in all of the second floor doors. This occurred much quicker than trying to use a "rabbet tool" or halligan on these metal framed doors in moderate smoke conditions to conduct our search. Is that by the book, no, but let's face it you can throw a thousand textbooks at the fire and it still will not go out. Stay safe and use all of the tools in your toolbox....including common sense.

    rfd599
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    we run 1 engine and 1 ladder . thats all we get unless we call in the off duty. so we should be bringing a tool up to the house with us . most of the guys here have a hard time doing that do to our lack of fires and their tunnel vision. i have a 36 inch wrecking bar that i pet named Baxter and they make fun of me for always having it with me BUT when we are inside and they realize they need a tool they always look for me.Baxter can do anything he is light weight so i can hold him and manage a line , he can force doors take windows pull drywall or metal roofs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd599
    Chicago FF:
    We made entry and four of us kicked in all of the second floor doors. This occurred much quicker than trying to use a "rabbet tool" or halligan on these metal framed doors in moderate smoke conditions to conduct our search. Is that by the book, no, but let's face it you can throw a thousand textbooks at the fire and it still will not go out. Stay safe and use all of the tools in your toolbox....including common sense.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com
    I couldn't agree more.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Default Tools, tools, tools

    Like the American Express Card, I never leave home without my halligan.
    A wise old instructor once told me a FF with no tools is just a civilian with protective clothing and breathing air.

    On the other note about using the hoseline as a FE.... I've got nothing???

    Be safe
    Bryan

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    If that technique works for you by mule kicking the door then thats your technique. Thats ok for inward swinging doors, what's your technique for outward swinging doors. Have I done it before, yes I have, but still prefer the using the proper tools they have not failed me yet. I guess it's all about what you think is the right way. Common senes you bet. Please Define a standard house fire. As for the "RABBIT TOOL" the hydra ram is a rabbit tool it's just a one piece tool rather than the two piece boat anchor carried in a bag. FDNY forced over 1000 doors during the first WTC incident using hydra rams, and during the black out they forced over 200 doors with the hydra ram. We purchased one for each truck company and our 2 heavy squads and they have been used alot with out any complaints. STAY SAFE

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    Cap:

    You are taking this way too personal. My remarks were made in jest regarding the first post. Have I kicked doors in....yes....will I continue to kick doors in.....yes, if I don't have a set of irons, halligan, axe, ram, "rabbet tool", K-12, Vent Saw or the truck company present. Is there a proper way to force entry.....absolutely, but this entirely depends on your still, town, district, types of construction, socio-economic status of the area, high-rise, low-rise, single-family, multi-family, new construction, etc.....That is how most everyone I know chooses their weapon of choice.

    How do I force an outward swinging door? Again, it depends on what area of town I am going but it could be my axe, irons, knife, or K-12.

    Use your head and stay safe. Again, firefighting is more than reading a textbook or going to a few drills. If you think the nozzle idea works, then try it, but find a number of ways that work for you or your company and use them. The more tools in the toolbox, then the better off you will be.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

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    Ok, I not in the business of bashing you or am I taking this personnal. We all have our ways of taking care of business, I'm one for not using my body to do the job that tools were designed for. So if you feel like I am bashing you I'm not and I'm man enough to applogize. Your in a department that sees alot of fires and you do whats best for you in your situation thats your choice. Again, I agree with some of your statements, this job is more about reading texbooks and going to a few drills. We have buildings that the 8lb maul is our tool of choice due to the type of door, and some have up to 3-4 deadbolt locks attached, and in some areas a set of irons, hydra ram are the tools needed. I'm still not sold on the nozzle technique. Common sense is in our tool box. STAY SAFE it's all good!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdsq10
    Please Define a standard house fire.
    A couple of heron users lighting the bed on fire, it spreads nicely and when you get there you have fire blowing out the windows on the third floor of a three flat, you know, a standard house fire.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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