Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 58

Thread: Why diesel?

  1. #21
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    OK, but how did you arrive at the conclusion that it is harder on an engine to shut it off and restart than to idle. Contrary of course to what you find in the basic operator's manual. And have you not seen the fuel dillution in lube oil, upper cylinder wear from fuel washing the lube oil, and valve stem/guide problems that are the most common problem with long idling?

    Birken


  2. #22
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    492

    Default torque

    what is the comparison of torque between a triton v10 and a powerstroke v8? also, will chevy allow the gasser on an ambulance?

  3. #23
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Powerstroke = 570 @ 2000
    V10 = 457 @3250

    Both numbers are substantial when compared to engines of even a few years ago.

    The Cummins "B-Series" in Dodges used to have 400 ft-lbs for a long time...and that was considered enough to move a house.

    My department once considered purchasing a used 1996 Chevrolet 3500 4x4 Type I ambulance as a support vehicle. It was built by one of the bigger builders...I don't remember which. It had a 454 EFI engine.

    More recently...an area combo department bought a light rescue unit in 2001. It was one of the last Chevy 3500HD's (19.5" wheels) available in the old body style...but was available with the newer 8.1L V8 Gas. They like it.
    Last edited by fpvfd502; 08-31-2006 at 11:14 AM.
    Assistant Chief

  4. #24
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Maybe to help bring the question to a close (diesel vs. gas discussions in pickup forums have been known to go on forever)...Ford Motor Company only sells their vehicles with the Powerstroke if you want the Amb Prep Pkg. Their legal definition of an ambulance is "a vehicle which transports patients and/or carries life saving equipment similiar to that of an ambulance...and uses a idle kicker device..."

    Ford QVM manuals and Incomplete Unit Body Builders manuals are very very informative and give many details of what Ford expects from upfitters. They do not leave any stone unturned and describe wiring modifications, heat shielding, body mounting, frame alterations etc. Its more than an average person wants to read. I've read them and read the new ones as they come out. There is ALOT of information available from Ford on the web on ambulance topics...and all other vocational topics.

    Since we don't transport and we don't have an idle kicker...Ford had no problems with our use of the V10. They said it would serve our needs well...and it does just that. Our truck in not considered an ambulance. As a side note...they do have a manual on how to install a high idle kicker on gas engine equipped trucks. It will show all the PCM taps required etc. But...not if its a gas engine on an ambulance.

    But with ambulances...Ford has literature why they do not wish to offer a gas ambulance. And if you know Ford ambulance history...you'll know their elevated underhood temperatures in E-Series trucks with gas engines was not a total success. I won't go into their reasoning. Their literature library is very extensive and the information is actually neat.

    Point being...they don't discuss the efficiency of diesel versus gas...nor the horsepower/torque required to move an ambulance. They discuss heat sheilding requirements and fuel systems in general. They wish to only offer diesel platforms in the Prep package for ambulances.

    Thus...the answer to the original question is simple. Ford ambulances do not use gas engines because Ford Motor Company has chosen to only focus on a common platform which they feel comfortable with has a proven track record of not causing them (FoMoCo) problems. They are not going to devote the engineering and time required to develop a gas platform...although possible. Most want diesel anyway...and sales of gas platforms would probably not meet the goals Ford would have. If there was a large demand...they would most likely follow suit. Departments like having one type of fuel for rigs...and the ideology of "diesels are heavy duty engines".

    For us...the $6000 price tag couldn't be justified.

    I think thats the real reason to the original question. Its not because they save so much fuel, have so much more power that both the taxpayers notice a substancial savings and patients get to the hospital faster. Ambulances are junk at 100,000 miles anyway. Your taking a risk pushing them any further do to chassis wear etc.

    Man...I think I'll bow out at this point. Not to offend anyone...its been a great discussion...but I'm tired of typing. And all of this is just my opinion. Maybe Nascar should go diesel. Refuel less and more power??
    Assistant Chief

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    Actually Cummins had a diesel race car in the 1950s. It did very well but DNF for some dumb reason or another. Too bad it did not continue.

    Birken

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    867

    Default diesel engines

    Audi won this year's 12 Hours of Sebring and 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance races with diesel powered cars.

    They are actually diesels converted from their base gas race engine. Shades of GM. But these actually hold up. Expect two more brands with diesel race cars next year.

    Diesels are more fuel efficent. Thats why 60% of the cars now sold in Europe are diesels. Watch how many car manufactuers start offering diesel engines again next year with gas prices pushing $3.00/gal.

    As for diesel's in rigs, they are the way to go. Idling at the scene with lights on is what they do! Diesel's generate less heat under the hood, helping the life of alternators and batteries. But yes, you should change the oil and filter more often when idling for long periods regardless of gas or diesel engines. IMHO

  7. #27
    Forum Member Frmboybuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cornfields
    Posts
    524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    OK, but how did you arrive at the conclusion that it is harder on an engine to shut it off and restart than to idle. Contrary of course to what you find in the basic operator's manual. And have you not seen the fuel dillution in lube oil, upper cylinder wear from fuel washing the lube oil, and valve stem/guide problems that are the most common problem with long idling?

    Birken
    Yes, ive seen all of the above. I have also replaced more parts due to starting and stopping an engine than I have from extended idling. If you use a high idle(800-1000rpm) you wont have the fuel washing problem. Those trucks you see with that prob, never used a high idle. I still prefer to let them idle at 1000 rpm. They will run longer than any department will have them unless they plan to run them in the ground

  8. #28
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    This is getting off topic but what parts other than starters and ring gears can you attribute to repeated starting?

    Birken

  9. #29
    Forum Member Frmboybuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cornfields
    Posts
    524

    Default

    Just about every major part is affected upon startup....Mains, rod bearings, valve stems, cam bearings....ETC. Cold starts are extremely hard on an engine. Ecspecially in our line of work as alot of fire apparatus might sit for days to weeks at a time before they are started. I do understand your point on extended idling though. One main reason to leave public service vehicles idling is that on scene you have warning lights on.

  10. #30
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    Right, we have to leave them idling to provide power for all sorts of things.

    But I am asking, what specific problems can you attribute to the list of parts you gave? All the engines I have taken apart, even after sitting for years, still had plenty of oil in the bearings, cam lobes, etc. and turned freely so long as the parts were not the ones that tatered. I have never seen any evidence to support that repeated starting does any damage. I send in oil samples at every oil change and all my engines that are not broken show no evidence of excessive wear in iron, lead, aluminum, copper, or anything that would tend to be elevated if this hypothesis was correct. If I am going to be idle for more than 5 minutes, I shut it off.

    Birken

  11. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    811

    Cool Why I love diesel......

    This is just a lil' letter to say why I love having diesels.....
    First of all, in So. Calif. it's way cheaper than midgrade fuel (which is all I run in my vehicles).
    Second, diesel engines are manufactured to go at least 500,000 miles (that is directly from Ford).
    Third, the amount of horsepower and torque when compared are night and day.
    Fourth, my neighbor has a V10 and the other day when we were talkin' he was amazed that I am gettin' 22-24 mpg..... He's gettin' on a good day, 12 mpg.
    Fifth, I have personally seen the fuel consumption difference in my Paid-Call Department (we had a V8 engine in our Ambulance and a diesel in our Patrol..... the Patrol is heavier, and yet consumed less fuel).
    Sixth, have fun smoggin' your Unleaded vehicles........ I ain't gotta worry bout that (at least not right now, anyways).
    What happened when diesel prices got too high.......... hmm, I do believe they came crashin' down when some of the supporters decided to stop in the middle of a few freeways in some major cities...... That's almost as powerful as a union.......... LOL
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  12. #32
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Couple items I have issues on.One is that the V-10 Ford heats up(operating temp)faster than the Diesel.Wrong answer! Every Ford diesel from late 2000-2001 has a butterfly valve in the exhaust that closes when the engine is cold to speed up the warming process.I've got heat in mine from 15F in a little over 1.5 to 2 miles.The V10 is no better.Secondly where did that 20% more crude to produce diesel over gas come from? Diesel is an OIL and takes less cracking and refining than Gasoline hence less initial product to produce.I've gotten away from gasoline and have no interest in going back.Any of your "lightweight"diesels will last easily twice as long as a gasser regardless of MFG,will have less repairs per mile driven,and in a cost per mile for most Depts running over 300 or more runs a year will offer substantial savings over the life history of the vehicle.Plus the Ford diesels are warranteed for 100k.I don't carry any of those fancy ASE or other titles but I've worked on/around equipment all my life.NOBODY around here runs a gas rig(except antiques)in Fire service use. The biggest problems we see with Powerstrokes is early production injector O ring failures,Oil pan corrosion and turbo failures on the 6.0. And not a lot of those,either.A Gm on gas? Better figure on a fuel pump every 60-90K and that's if you change the filter religiously.V-10? I'd equate that to the old 5.8.Good long life engine but you better order the optional military fuel trailer to go with it.With prarie gears you might do OK but my PS gets mileage of 14-15 around town and 19-20 highway.Or about twice what my gas rigs would do.Hey,If gas is your thing ,great but I'll keep my Diesels. T.C.

  13. #33
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    66

    Default

    I think there are a ~few~ more problems with Powerstroke 6.0's than spoken of here. That is a fact. I would hesitate taking one for free.
    Assistant Chief

  14. #34
    Forum Member Frmboybuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cornfields
    Posts
    524

    Default

    The 6.0L have had most all of their problems worked out. Yes they had some issues when they first came out but Ford has worked hard at addressing the problems. Our rescue (05) has the 6.0L and not 1 problem with it. We have a work truck thats also an 05 with 110K on it and yet to do anything besides change the oil and fuel filters.

  15. #35
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    502,Since you're obviously privy to information I don't have;SPILL! I've listed the flaws I know of on the Ford 6.0.I have seen ONE with a head gasket issue but examination of the gasket would indicate an installation error and it was covered under warranty.Now I'm pro FORD not necessarily pro 6.0. I prefer the old tried and true 7.3 and if I could get it in a Ford,would prefer the Cummins over that.We have a bunch of 6.0's running arouns here both personal and work trucks and I haven't towed very many of them.So I'm curious as to why you think they're so bad.I'm basing my information on personal exposure to these machines over a gamut of towing to repair to association contacts worldwide.I'm just not seeing major pattern failures outside of the ones I listed,which as Buck indicated, have been largely covered under warranty.And 100K warranty to boot.My 02 (7.3) will be out of warranty in October but the only thing besides service I've done to it is a Cam sensor which they are notorious for. T.C.

  16. #36
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    66

    Default

    I've always had Ford Trucks...and love them.

    All one has to do is read thedieselstop.com or the ford-trucks.com forums for the 6.0L and see the problems and stories. I don't have time to write down all the complaints and legitimate problems. Just spend a couple weeks reading. Of course you won't hear from folks who have had no problems. And they out number the problem folks greatly. I know that. But if it were only 1-2 problems...these sites wouldn't be full of posters asking questions and letting others know their experiences.

    There used to be a site devoted to technicians who could not find solutions to 6.0 problems. It was 6literpowerstroke.com. Its been shut down. Probably by Ford. All the TSB's were listed and things like that. Most of the posters were ford techs...but obviously not being open about that.

    My coworker has an 05 King Ranch F250 PSD. It's had injector problems, three turbos and now its loosing antifreeze. When it was in for a turbo...they had to add two gallons and charged him for it. A week later its way low...and they were going to charge him to tow it 25 miles. Instead he told them "its under warranty...so if it blows up its yours"...and drove it in. They've had it for 2 weeks now. He used to brag to me all the time. And this guy doesn't like egg on his face. But he flat out admitted he should have listened to others.

    I don't own one...so I might as well quit now right? Nobody has to take what I believe as fact. Consider it merely my opinion.
    Assistant Chief

  17. #37
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Don't get your feathers ruffled.All I wanted to know was from what source you were getting your info.I don't spend a lot of time at dieselstop.But I am a member of Iatn with over 40k techs worldwide.As I mentioned earlier,the 6.0 has issues but like any new platform they are being worked out and SEEM to respond well to treatment.We do a boatload of towing for the local dealers and I'm not towing large numbers of 6.0's.And I don't think they're sneaking them in on covered haulers.If your friend is losing coolant he may have a similar condition I described on my last post,who knows.And yes,it will take two to three weeks by the time they tear it down,get the tech rep to look and approve the repairs and put it back together.Is that right? Nope,but in todays shark infested world it's how it happens.And now we've got the 6.4 to deal with. Never had a lot of Turbo trouble until they went with the variable rate turbo,sounds kinda like a mortgage;no problems 'til you go variable rate.Well,I gotta go exercise my 7.3 now.got some broken GM's to drag in. T.C.

  18. #38
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    I have to agree, Ford and the others will never allow a detailed study to be done so we will never be able to throw up real numbers on failure rates but those 6.0s are universally hated by mechanics everywhere. We have to go on the information we have available and even the 05s are having the same stupid problems that they always had. I mean for example look at the infamous bell housing stain, that went on for a couple years at least, turned out to be a simple casting or machining flaw, you would have thought that the factory could get ahold of something that stupid and fix it right away. But apparently that information never got to them or they would have done something about it a lot sooner. It doesn't help anything the bad blood between International and Ford a couple years back either, seems they just tolerate each other because it's good for business now.

    Birken

  19. #39
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    66

    Default

    No feathers ruffled here. I know all the diesels have issues at one time or another. Ask me about my 99 Dodge 2500 sometime.

    And while there are those 6.0's that have problems...many more won't.

    Its just hard to see the light when you read articles like this:

    Ford 6.0 Article Auto Blog

    and...

    Read toward the bottom

    I have a great interest in the 6.0 or 6.4 becoming stone reliable. They power many emergency vehicles and I would never want anyone's life to be in danger over a poor engine.
    Assistant Chief

  20. #40
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    31

    Default durability

    Under heavy use conditions, such as in emergency services, diesel engines will give you more reliability. I drive a box truck for my 9-5 every day, an F450 with a V10. The vehicle is rated for 15,000lb GVWR and very rarely approaches that number. With only 73k on the odometer, the engine drinks 1qt of oil every 500 miles and reeks of toasted quaker state every time I get out. Another of our facilities has the exact same truck, similar workload, but with the PowerStroke Diesel. Theirs is two years older, has close to 200k, and runs like a champ. All that, and the diesel is faster!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 2007 Diesel Fuel
    By nwadler in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-28-2006, 05:19 PM
  2. Problems getting diesel
    By Station2Capt in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-16-2005, 12:06 AM
  3. Diesel Powered Pump
    By Firefighter430 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-08-2005, 01:54 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-26-2005, 06:43 AM
  5. Bonfires and Diesel Fuel
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-17-2004, 04:44 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts