Thread: No Fire Hydrant

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    Default No Fire Hydrant

    How many of you live in a rural or suburban area that does not have fire hydrants? I have a few questions.

    Melissa

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    I live in an area where we have pretty good hydrant coverage but we do have a few roads that have no hydrants. I may be able to answer your question.

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckred
    How many of you live in a rural or suburban area that does not have fire hydrants? I have a few questions.

    Melissa
    Fire away! (pun intended)




    Kevin
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    No Hydrants here....... What is you question?

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    To anyone: Please be patient as I am new at asking these questions openly online. I welcome opinions from other people who have experienced this or would know what to do.

    Ok.....

    I live in a suburban town where we are up and coming. There are some neighborhoods who don't want hydrants and/or don't have hydrants. We had a house fire not to long ago with no hydrants. I want to make sure I know what I am doing if/when it happens again. I would love an outsiders view.

    My questions are....

    If you have a house fire in an area with no hydrants and you have to do drafting, Do you know this before arrival?

    Do you look at your map and see that there are no hydrants and call this in for help before you are there? Not enough time cause your gearing up? Who would call this in and when?

    Are you suppose to arrive in the engine truck, do what you can, then set up for the tanker to come? Again manpower. We have an issue with manpower here! Only one truck leaves, usually, until further info is given.

    How long does it take to set up the drafting? I watched a few vidoes on drafting. Guess it depends on how many guys are there and how long before the Tanker shows up? Could be busy fighting the fire?

    We are paid and volly.

    I know depending on who is there and who shows up plays alot into these questions for a small town. Unfortunetly we don't operate 4 man to a truck. We have 2 or 3 paid on 24/48 shifts and we depend on vollies.

    If it was done right, Tell me what happens from the time you leave the firehouse till the time you pack up, what you would do. I am not criticing the IC or the brothers here in my town. I just want to know how to do it right when or if it happens to me. We have had this happen and it concerns me.

    Melissa

    PS. Remember I am new so don't crucify me to much. You all have so much experience and I appreciate all that you say and post. Please be as blunt as you like, I can handle straightforwardness.
    I am limited in telling the details of what happened, sorry.
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-05-2006 at 02:41 PM.

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    These questions have been running around in my head for months now. I haven't asked anyone what happened. A friend in another county told me don't ask any questions till I learn this or that. I didn't ask cause I am new. I am still very curious. The outcome of the house fire was a bad. I just listen to what happened but I would like to know what to do the next time if I am a part of it. I listen to my friends in the Fire Dept talk about it and talk it about it. They say what went wrong but I want to know how to do it right.
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006 at 11:56 PM.

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    the answer is quite simple. if you don't have hydrants, you use a tanker, or more precisely, multiple tankers.

    also remember, your engine has a tank on it. use it. or you can get an actual tanker-pumper as your first in engine. the key is also to conserve water until you get a water supply.

    also, a tanker only needs one person to operate it. so it doesn't take that many men to operate.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Yes it seems simple to me how things "should have been done" but weren't.

    I am not suppose to ask questions because I am new so I just speculate and wonder if I am right.

    I think I should ask questions but people here are funny about why you want to know. Ummmm, cause I want to learn. Uh, CYA and your brothers and sisters.



    Melissa
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006 at 11:57 PM.

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    We are a rural department

    We have pretty much most of the hydrants marked in our engine map books. Our First in engine LT looks up the fire, our dispatcher will let us know details on the fire like if smoke or flames are showing. We have mutual aid with surrounding departments and our LT gets them rolling even before we arrive. We had an arson fire on a 2 story all wood house. Our station was only 3min away and it was fully involved upon arrival with no hydrants close to us. You can only do so much with 2 1 3/4" lines and 1000 gal. We could only try to knock it down and do exposure protection. We had a huge field right next to the house and it was dry as a bone.

    My best opinion is to get resources rolling at the beginning of the call and you can always cancel them. Our chief has given dispatch a mutual aid list aid it does not take that long to call dispatch to get other recourses rolling.
    Firefighter, EMT-I

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckred
    To anyone: Please be patient as I am new at asking these questions openly online. I welcome opinions from other people have experienced this or would know what to do.

    Ok.....

    I live in a suburban town where we are up and coming. There are some neighborhoods who don't want hydrants and/or don't have hydrants. We had a house fire not to long ago with no hydrants. I want to make sure I know what I am doing if/when it happens again. I would love an outsiders view.

    My questions is....

    If you have a house fire in an area with no hydrants and you have to do drafting, Do you know this before arrival?

    Do you look at your map and see that there are no hydrants and call this in for help before you are there? Not enough time cause your gearing up? Who would call this in and when?

    Are you suppose to arrive in the engine truck, do what you can, then set up for the tanker to come? Again manpower. We have an issue with manpower here! Only one truck leaves, usually, until further info is given.

    How long does it take to set up the drafting? I watched a few vidoes on drafting. Guess it depends on how many guys are there and how long before the Tanker shows up? Could be busy fighting the fire?

    We are paid and volly.

    I know depending on who is there and who shows up plays alot into these questions for a small town. Unfortunetly we don't operate 4 man to a truck. We have 2 or 3 paid on 24/48 shifts and we depend on vollies.

    If it was done right, Tell me what happens from the time you leave the firehouse till the time you pack up, what you would do. I am not criticing the IC or the brothers here in my town. I just want to know how to do it right when or if it happens to me. We have had this happen and it concerns me.

    Melissa
    That's a lot to cover.

    We protect both the city and the rural areas of our entire county (I believe it is around 720 square miles) . Many areas have good hydrant coverage, however there are some areas that don't.

    Our CAD has been programmed with the locations of all plugs in the entire county. If a call is in an area with limited, or no mains, we send 2, 2500 gallon tankers with the initial 2 engine companies (750 gallons each).
    Upon arrival, the first-in unit deploys attack lines and uses tank water until second-in units can supply them. The first-in tanker (should fire conditions dictate) will drop a portable tank and set up drafting ops. A water shuttle is then established and units (tankers) will dump into the portable tank.

    With proper training and practice, a drafting operation should take no more than about 5 minutes or so to set up with no more than 2 people. Each fire scene is different though, so times may vary slightly from one fire to the next.

    We don our SCBA en-route. They are seat mounted. We arrive ready to go to work.
    The first arriving company officer establishes command, gives a size-up and conducts a 360 degree survey. The driver and firefighter(s) will deploy the necessary lines (minimum of 2) as directed by the CO. Fire attack begins. The CO (IC) and the FF make entry. The D/O will set up PPV and will deploy it when it is called for by the CO. The second-in companies will deploy additional lines as needed and will assist with SAR, ventilation, laddering the structure and water supply.

    If the situation dictates, the second-in CO will assume command and the first-in CO will become "Interior" sector. Upon arrival of a Chief officer, IC will be transferred to him and the second-in CO becomes "Operations" sector.

    On a very large fire, or one that is a substantial distance from a reliable water source, a third tanker may be called for.

    We take great pride in the fact that we very rarely have an interrupted flow of water on a structure fire. This is because we initially dispatch sufficient units (and water) for a reported structure fire.

    We are a 100% paid department, but in the unincorporated areas of the county, there are several small volunteer departments that may also provide some resources, however there is no guarantee they will have anyone available to respond at any given time.

    I hope this answers some of your questions.




    Kevin
    Last edited by fireman4949; 08-05-2006 at 03:07 PM.
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    Thank you both that is very helpful.

    Your Lt/Capt or whomever should call in more help while in route

    then you pull lines

    then you set up drafting?

    Tankers come

    keep the pumping from the tankers?

    The house was fully involved upon arrival but even if it's not do you just rely on your tankers or always sent up for drafting?

    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckred
    Thank you both that is very helpful.

    Your Lt/Capt or whomever should call in more help while in route

    then you pull lines

    then you set up drafting?

    Tankers come

    keep the pumping from the tankers?

    The house was fully involved upon arrival but even if it's not do you just rely on your tankers or always sent up for drafting?

    M
    Many rural structure fires do not require a draft to be set up...Many do.
    There are many factors to consider that determine what the best line of attack is.

    Tankers can and do pump at fires. They are basically engines that have bigger tanks.

    Use what you have on scene first to its best potential and deploy additional resources as needed.
    If you think you will need more water than you have on scene, CALL FOR IT IMMEDIATELY!!!!! Never wait until you run low, or run out before making that decision!!!!!
    When in doubt, call 'em out! I'd MUCH rather have to cancel a unit or two than have to wait 10 minutes for one as I watch a house burn!




    Kevin
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    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    Member I.A.C.O.J.
    http://www.tfdfire.com/
    "Fir na tine"

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    Kevin....you are the man. THANK YOU for all your detail. Thank you for not assuming I don't know this or that or may know this or that. You just answered it all. I am just so happy to have this website.

    Part of me knows I belong in the city but more of me belongs in suburbia. Things are run so differently in small towns, which is quaint but....People here think my enthusiam to want to learn is questionable, 12 miles up the road in the city they LOVE it.

    Most of what you said is how I think ( in my limited knowledge) or hope it would play out. Ofcourse you said more than I know or thought would take place as I have not been there and I appreciate your play by play. Thank you again.

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    Well our town doesn't have a hydrant anywhere in over 54 sq miles (our town size). For a possible structure fire, we call mutual aid automatically, usually 1 or 2 companies. If we have a confirmed structure fire, we will call in a few surrounding companies with tankers. We have a lake that we can draft out of and a pipe at a mutual aid company that can be drafted out of (10,000 gal tank underground).

    We had a situation a couple years ago, with a junkyard, this wasn't in our town, and they had hydrants, but water supply was still a problem. We had about 4-5 tankers 8,000-10,000gal setup and drafting pools for them. Then we had about 30-40 engines shuttling water. We had a problem there of not enough pressure in the hydrant system to fill trucks at numerous locations. We had to spread everyone out, send people drafting, go into other towns. We had trucks going 5 miles away to get water, thats 5 mile radius.

    Overall it took 5-6 hours to knock down, and we flowed a few million gals of water. That was an experience I wont soon forget, a lot of things were learned there, especially being fairly new at the time. (And i am almost ashamed to say it, but I was being a little bit of a freelancer then. Giving a hand anywhere needed. The scene barely had a structured command.) We had every company in the county, and companies from 5 surrounding counties there.

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    Melissia ...

    I think you are slightly confused.

    Fire Attack and Drafting at the water source are two different operations that may be sperated a mile or two or three.

    All areas that you need tankers for (no hydrants or huydrants spaced very far apart that makes hose lays impractical - that is a very common situation here) should be identified before the fire. Rough estimations of fire flows for tha average size house should be calculated and the number of tankers needed to supply water should be determined. Then those areas should be identifed in some sort of book or computer program at your dispatch point. Thhe required number of tankers (including any needed mutual aid to "fill the run card") plus 1 additional engine for pumping water at the tanker fill point (if you can't supply it yourself) should be dispatched on the intiial alarm. This is a critical step that needs to be done well before the fire as part of the pre-planning process.

    Water fill points with and turn-arounds should then be identified. Mutual Aid compoanies need to be made aware of thier location. Command will identify a fill point to all arriving units. The supply pumper (either yours or mutual aid) will go to that location and setup drafting operations. This is a seperate operation for the firefighting operations. A fill point officer will be designated to run the fill site.

    Operations at the fire scene will run like any other fire. Lines are pulled. A decision is made to either have tankers dump into a folding tank or if equipped with pumps, have them pump thier water off to the attack engine. If a tank will be used it's set up and the attack engine prepares to draft from it. A water supply officer is assigned to moniter the tanker operation. A dump site officer is assigned to run the dump site. Additional tankers are called if needed.

    Running a tanker operation is an art that most city boys will never get the thrill of doing. I find it more challenging than running a firefighting operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949
    Many rural structure fires do not require a draft to be set up...Many do.
    There are many factors to consider that determine what the best line of attack is.

    Tankers can and do pump at fires. They are basically engines that have bigger tanks.

    Use what you have on scene first to its best potential and deploy additional resources as needed.
    If you think you will need more water than you have on scene, CALL FOR IT IMMEDIATELY!!!!! Never wait until you run low, or run out before making that decision!!!!!
    When in doubt, call 'em out! I'd MUCH rather have to cancel a unit or two than have to wait 10 minutes for one as I watch a house burn!




    Kevin
    Thanks.

    There are rumors, opinions and lots of gossip about what happened. I am catching HEAT now for asking about it. I was trying to understand. I didn't make one negative comment. I quitely inquired. Guess I wouldn't catch heat if mistakes weren't made? Hey everyone make mistakes. I just wanted to learn and now I am a nosey woman. Whatever.

    M
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006 at 11:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Melissia ...

    I think you are slightly confused.

    Fire Attack and Drafting at the water source are two different operations that may be sperated a mile or two or three.
    Well she said she was fairly new, so maybe she didn't get into the FUN WORLD of ICS lol. That would be run by a seperate entity. If someone wants to explain ICS feel free.

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    We don't have hydrants in some areas but we just open our tank to pump and tank fill to recirculate the tank water and we never run out!!! Sorry I think I have terrets sometimes. No but to answer your questions, usually the officer and or engineer will know their first in district well enough to know if it has hydrants and usually there is something called a running order like the engine goes first then the tanker (tender darn NIMS) and such. When you have hydrants it's pretty easy running because if you can't get your own hydrant usually the second engine gets it for you and just relay pumps, whereas if your are drafing you still may need to have a second engine pump to you because you also want it to be easy for the tankers to dump like at a street corner where it's easy for them to get in and out like driving around the block. Also with tankers you need to have fill sites set up or designated for the tankers to refill. I say fill sites because if I remember right it takes like 6 tankers to keep up 1,000 gpm flow. We did it and all the tankers carry no less than 3,000 gallons of water. Remember for tankers you have to figure drive time to the fill site actuall fill time and the drive back to the scene. I hope this answers your qeustions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Melissia ...

    I think you are slightly confused.

    Fire Attack and Drafting at the water source are two different operations that may be sperated a mile or two or three.

    All areas that you need tankers for (no hydrants or huydrants spaced very far apart that makes hose lays impractical - that is a very common situation here) should be identified before the fire. Rough estimations of fire flows for tha average size house should be calculated and the number of tankers needed to supply water should be determined. Then those areas should be identifed in some sort of book or computer program at your dispatch point. Thhe required number of tankers (including any needed mutual aid to "fill the run card") plus 1 additional engine for pumping water at the tanker fill point (if you can't supply it yourself) should be dispatched on the intiial alarm. This is a critical step that needs to be done well before the fire as part of the pre-planning process.

    Water fill points with and turn-arounds should then be identified. Mutual Aid compoanies need to be made aware of thier location. Command will identify a fill point to all arriving units. The supply pumper (either yours or mutual aid) will go to that location and setup drafting operations. This is a seperate operation for the firefighting operations. A fill point officer will be designated to run the fill site.

    Operations at the fire scene will run like any other fire. Lines are pulled. A decision is made to either have tankers dump into a folding tank or if equipped with pumps, have them pump thier water off to the attack engine. If a tank will be used it's set up and the attack engine prepares to draft from it. A water supply officer is assigned to moniter the tanker operation. A dump site officer is assigned to run the dump site. Additional tankers are called if needed.

    Running a tanker operation is an art that most city boys will never get the thrill of doing. I find it more challenging than running a firefighting operation.
    Uh yep! You can say that! HAHAHA.

    That is the reason I am asking. I am confused. I have not read the rest of your post so I shall return. I saw your first sentence and started laughing.

    M
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-10-2006 at 12:00 AM.

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    You know I can't just say....

    This is what they say happened, this is what happened, this what I think should have happened and what do ya'll think.

    It would make my line of questioning make more sense and save me from looking like an idiot but as far as I am concerned...An idiot is someone who does not know something about something, someplace or someone. A stupid person is someone who is just dumb. Ignorance of a tactic is not stupidity. But to me stupidity is not learning how to NOT make the mistake you just made all over again.

    I have to go now. Thanks.

    M
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-10-2006 at 12:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant516
    Well she said she was fairly new, so maybe she didn't get into the FUN WORLD of ICS lol. That would be run by a seperate entity. If someone wants to explain ICS feel free.
    Thank you for coming to my defense. I actually laughed though when I read that. I will say many times over to all who know so much in the fire service....I know nothing, teach me, show me.

    Melissa

    LA See thank you below.
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-06-2006 at 04:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant516
    Well our town doesn't have a hydrant anywhere in over 54 sq miles (our town size). For a possible structure fire, we call mutual aid automatically, usually 1 or 2 companies. If we have a confirmed structure fire, we will call in a few surrounding companies with tankers. We have a lake that we can draft out of and a pipe at a mutual aid company that can be drafted out of (10,000 gal tank underground).

    We had a situation a couple years ago, with a junkyard, this wasn't in our town, and they had hydrants, but water supply was still a problem. We had about 4-5 tankers 8,000-10,000gal setup and drafting pools for them. Then we had about 30-40 engines shuttling water. We had a problem there of not enough pressure in the hydrant system to fill trucks at numerous locations. We had to spread everyone out, send people drafting, go into other towns. We had trucks going 5 miles away to get water, thats 5 mile radius.

    Overall it took 5-6 hours to knock down, and we flowed a few million gals of water. That was an experience I wont soon forget, a lot of things were learned there, especially being fairly new at the time. (And i am almost ashamed to say it, but I was being a little bit of a freelancer then. Giving a hand anywhere needed. The scene barely had a structured command.) We had every company in the county, and companies from 5 surrounding counties there.
    Wow where do you live?

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    Gosh, thanks everyone for all your help. I thought about posting these questions months ago but did not want to be ripped a new one for not knowing what hell I am talking about. It wasn't as painful as I thought it would be. HAHA.

    Melissa

    Kevin,

    Brother I didn't realize you lived in FL. Gosh, I have so many questions about how things are done in the Sunshine State. I lived there 17 yrs.
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-05-2006 at 06:08 PM.

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    Can I add my 2 cents also?

    In the county where I volunteer (272 sq mi; 30,000 population; 5 fire stations) we have about 50 standard fire hydrants, and we have 75 dry hydrants. All of these hydrants are appropriately marked on our maps, so the first-in officer will know where the nearest water source is.

    Our SOP's dictate that three stations are notified for any type of structural call. This will bring three engines (750 gallons each) and three tankers (1800 to 3000 gallons each). The SOP's further dictate the following:
    • First arriving engine: attacks fire with on-board water
    • First arriving tanker: nurse-feeds the 1st engine while portable pond(s) are set up
    • Second arriving engine: drafts water from the portable pond(s) and feeds the attack engine
    • Third engine automatically goes to estabish the tanker fill site, wherever it might be
    • Second and third tankers arrive, dump thier water, and fall into the tanker shuttle

    The others have gone into a lot more detail, but I thought that our SOP might enlighten you a little bit more.

    Keep asking questions, we'll keep giving you answers.

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    Thank you Boxalarm 187. : )

    I think this fire caught a few people off guard? I don't know. Good learning curve as far as I am concerned. Lot's of Pride here, which is good, but we are not a town that catches fires often.

    Melissa

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