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  1. #1
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    Question Drill misses the bigger issue.

    Now, I read this introduction for a drill and one thing glared out at me like the lights from 20 buffed-out toyota corrola wacker mobiles!

    See if you can see where I would find problem not with the drill but what led up to it and what perhaps would be a better drill and a better discussion of proper fireground tactics from the senario presented?


    Company Level Training - Splicing And Extending An Attack Line
    What Would You Do If You Need More Line?

    ............
    LARRY MANASCO
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    The scenario: You are dispatched to a reported apartment fire at 0200 hours. Enroute, you learn there have been multiple calls reporting this fire. You arrive on scene and find a three-story, wood-frame apartment building with heavy smoke showing. You cannot determine what floor the smoke is coming from because the smoke is too heavy.

    You order your firefighter on the apartment side of the engine to pull a two-inch attack line: it is a 200-foot pre-connected line. The firefighter stretches the line through the breezeway to its full length, and then discovers that the fire is on the third floor of the building next door. What would you do and how efficiently do you think your crew would perform?

    FTM-PTB


  2. #2
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Now, I read this introduction for a drill and one thing glared out at me like the lights from 20 buffed-out toyota corrola wacker mobiles!

    See if you can see where I would find problem not with the drill but what led up to it and what perhaps would be a better drill and a better discussion of proper fireground tactics from the senario presented?


    Company Level Training - Splicing And Extending An Attack Line
    What Would You Do If You Need More Line?

    ............
    LARRY MANASCO
    MembersZone Contributor
    Firehouse.Com Contributor



    The scenario: You are dispatched to a reported apartment fire at 0200 hours. Enroute, you learn there have been multiple calls reporting this fire. You arrive on scene and find a three-story, wood-frame apartment building with heavy smoke showing. You cannot determine what floor the smoke is coming from because the smoke is too heavy.

    You order your firefighter on the apartment side of the engine to pull a two-inch attack line: it is a 200-foot pre-connected line. The firefighter stretches the line through the breezeway to its full length, and then discovers that the fire is on the third floor of the building next door. What would you do and how efficiently do you think your crew would perform?

    FTM-PTB

    I see it, a few its.....and it took me a few minutes to get my jaw off the ground.....
    IACOJ Member

  3. #3
    Forum Member t13one12's Avatar
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    I think I have it
    9/11/01 D.C. Joseph "Uncle Joe" Marchbanks
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    Tim
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  4. #4
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    They should have waited outside until the fire self vented through one of the windows. This way they know where it is.

    This is why many people on here get into heated debates on whether to search before you stretch, or without, a handline. Obviously, when we search ahead of the engine, we are searching for victims. But more importantly, the fire has to be located and confined.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    OK let me try:

    1. Poor size-up. No 3+ sided view before committing resources results in potentially improper placement and inappropriate resource deployment.

    2. Only 2" line (was this a typo? who uses 2" lines?) on a "Big Smoke" fire. Big smoke = big fire = big water.

    What else?
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    If this actually did happen I'd send the next companies to the right building..."poop happens". If no other companies available at the time I would leave the 1st line in place and pull another. We've been to fires where the smoke was so thick in the street and it was night time that you had no idea which house was burning.

    Don't worry about what went wrong or about what you can't do...concentrate on what needs to be done and do what you can do.
    Last edited by MEDIC0372; 08-09-2006 at 04:59 PM.

  7. #7
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    I too think that the officer messed up by not doing a walk around/ investigation of exactly where the smoke is coming from. Had he done an investigation/search for the fire he would have found the correct building and that he would have needed what we call a courtyard lay or apartment lay to get to the 3rd floor. Now that we have answered this, what are your thoughts Fred?

    KTF-EGH

  8. #8
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    OK let me try:

    1. Poor size-up. No 3+ sided view before committing resources results in potentially improper placement and inappropriate resource deployment.

    2. Only 2" line (was this a typo? who uses 2" lines?) on a "Big Smoke" fire. Big smoke = big fire = big water.

    What else?
    I've been to a mattress fire that put out more smoke than a 4 room fire.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  9. #9
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    Hello boys and girls. Let me try to respond to some of the comments so that people can start to pick their jaws off of the ground. The first part of this article is a hypothetical situation. It was formed by some training that my crew has done at one of our apartments in our first due area. This exact situation has not occured.
    Fort Worth uses 2" lines, along with 1 3/4" and 2 1/2". If you have not used a 2", you should look into it. When you have a heavy fire load or potentially heavy fire load in a residential structure, an 1 3/4" line is not sufficient. A 2 1/2" is entirely too cumbersome to be pulling through a house. A 2" is a perfect solution. Quite a bit more water than an 1 3/4" and not near as heavy as a 2 1/2".
    As far as waiting for fire to vent out a window, I hope you are kidding. I'm not big on waiting around for the fire to get larger so that I can find it easier. I think I'll go look for it. In my department, we do not send truck companies in to find fires. They are for search and rescue, ventilation, forcible entry and utilities...
    I agree with a three sided size-up. I have had a fire on the back side of a two story apartment, top floor, fully involved, with fire showing through the roof. We stretched our line around and came up short. We spliced in and successfully attacked the fire from the interior. I know many of you would suggest a defensive attack. I chose different.
    Sorry if my hypothetical situation that was simply intended as a lead in to this training article floored anyone. The point of the article is the training, not the made up situation.
    Good discussion though. These are the kind of things that make me a better officer and hopefully everyone else also. Take care of yourselves.

    Lt. Larry Manasco

  10. #10
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manascl
    Hello boys and girls. Let me try to respond to some of the comments so that people can start to pick their jaws off of the ground. The first part of this article is a hypothetical situation. It was formed by some training that my crew has done at one of our apartments in our first due area. This exact situation has not occured.
    Fort Worth uses 2" lines, along with 1 3/4" and 2 1/2". If you have not used a 2", you should look into it. When you have a heavy fire load or potentially heavy fire load in a residential structure, an 1 3/4" line is not sufficient. A 2 1/2" is entirely too cumbersome to be pulling through a house. A 2" is a perfect solution. Quite a bit more water than an 1 3/4" and not near as heavy as a 2 1/2".
    As far as waiting for fire to vent out a window, I hope you are kidding. I'm not big on waiting around for the fire to get larger so that I can find it easier. I think I'll go look for it. In my department, we do not send truck companies in to find fires. They are for search and rescue, ventilation, forcible entry and utilities...
    I agree with a three sided size-up. I have had a fire on the back side of a two story apartment, top floor, fully involved, with fire showing through the roof. We stretched our line around and came up short. We spliced in and successfully attacked the fire from the interior. I know many of you would suggest a defensive attack. I chose different.
    Sorry if my hypothetical situation that was simply intended as a lead in to this training article floored anyone. The point of the article is the training, not the made up situation.
    Good discussion though. These are the kind of things that make me a better officer and hopefully everyone else also. Take care of yourselves.

    Lt. Larry Manasco
    So after your truck forces entry, they just sit at the door of the apt. and wait until the fire is knocked down?


    As for "splicing in"....stretching the correct attack line first is THE MOST important job of the engine co. Engine companies should know their 1st due area, especially MDs and garden apts, and should stretch the appropriate size and length. This is the point I believe Fred was trying to make, that training and drilling on proper stretching will keep you from having the aformentioned problems at a fire. Sure, everyone should know how to add lengths to a stretch, for other reasons beyond shortstretching, such as burst lengths, and fire extension to the floor above, etc. But knowing how to stop this problem before it happens is a much better drill.

    As for the 2 1/2" being too cumbersome, if the fire is located first, it makes the engine's job that much easier, stretching directly to the fire, instead of crawling around an apt with 5 closed doors, looking for it.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 08-09-2006 at 05:38 PM.
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  11. #11
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    The biggest mistake I see is stretching a line before knowing where the fire is. Simply walking around the building does not automatically find the fire location for you. As many of us have stated before....you need to send somebody in to locate the fire BEFORE you stretch your line.

    Im no fan of preconnected lines....but thats another debate....but to answer the question....after you've made the mistake of stretching prematurly, and there is a need to increase the lenth of the line....very simple (at least for us)...with the nozzle closed (not shutting down the line at the pump), remove the main stream tip from the nozzle (leaving just the shut off), add the needed lenths to the nozzle shut off, add a new nozzle to the last lenth and then open the 1st nozzle...simple.

  12. #12
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    As far as the line selection, I believe a 2" is a very appropriate line. If I am using a 2 1/2", it is either in a commercial business or on a defensive fire. I don't care if I know exactly where the fire is, you still have to negotiate multiple turns. With a 2 1/2", it is difficult at best. Sometimes, impossible.
    In this scenario, I think the right line was pulled. It just was not long enough. My company carries 2 pre-connected 2" lines, 2 pre-connected 1 3/4" lines. Our 2 1/2" line is not pre-connected. On the fire I described that actually happened, we could have pulled a 2 1/2" line. But we did'nt. We used our 2" line and was able to contain a fully involved 2 bedroom apt to that unit, with little extension in the attic past that particular units attic space.
    I agree with proper line selection. I see companies all the time choosing smaller lines simply for convienance. But my department has never been real big on 2 1/2" lines as interior attack lines. We have done it before, but not very often.
    Last edited by manascl; 08-19-2006 at 08:59 AM.

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    I agree with you completely MattyJ. That was the point of the article. What do you do with a line when a mistake has been made. If people don't practice this skill, it can be chaos. Will the task get accomplished, absolutely. But will it be done efficiently? That is the point. I don't think this skill is quite as easy as you make it sound. Especially with a young or inexperienced crew. You make good points though.

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    Actually this situation, if assessed correctly at the beginning would be a perfect scenerio for a high rise pack. Stretch a 2.5" or 3" to the landing on the second floor then gate off to (2) 1.75" lines. Strech a 2.5" or 3" as a backup when manpower permits.

    In the situation discribed... breakdown the line at the panel .. add the line you need .. then work it. Stretch a 2.5" or 3" as a backup when manpower permits.

    I just taught a department drill on tactical size-up and one of the things I stressed was the estimation of hoseline length needed. As you use preconnects, and they work for us 99.5% of the time, it's very easy to get into the rut of strectching it out of routine without assessing the needed for additional lentgh. We have very few situations where this will be an issue(one small apartment complex, a few larger commercial buildings and a fewer larger homes), but when it does become an issue I hope that we address it in the beginning of the operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Actually this situation, if assessed correctly at the beginning would be a perfect scenerio for a high rise pack. Stretch a 2.5" or 3" to the landing on the second floor then gate off to (2) 1.75" lines. Strech a 2.5" or 3" as a backup when manpower permits.

    In the situation discribed... breakdown the line at the panel .. add the line you need .. then work it. Stretch a 2.5" or 3" as a backup when manpower permits.

    I just taught a department drill on tactical size-up and one of the things I stressed was the estimation of hoseline length needed. As you use preconnects, and they work for us 99.5% of the time, it's very easy to get into the rut of strectching it out of routine without assessing the needed for additional lentgh. We have very few situations where this will be an issue(one small apartment complex, a few larger commercial buildings and a fewer larger homes), but when it does become an issue I hope that we address it in the beginning of the operation.
    I dont like the idea of stretching a 2 1/2" or 3" with a gate to 2 1 3/4" lines. If your rig takes a dump, or if you get a burst length in the 2 1/2", you just lost your initial attack line and your backup line. Now you must wait for extra manpower to stretch an additional line. In areas with limited manpower, that can be a problem.

    We just did the same drill as you talked about with estimating hose stretches. People get way too reliant on stretching the hose they always stretch, and estimating the lengths can become a lost art.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 08-09-2006 at 06:41 PM.
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    That is a skill that my crew practiced a week and a half ago. We tried pulling a line and splicing into it. We then tried pulling a 2 1/2" and connecting into our high-rise pack. We could then have the next company come in after a supply line has been laid and take a 100' section of 1 3/4", connect to the gated wye and presto, second attack line or back up line if the fire is small. We have a 100' section of 1 3/4" in our bumper that we have loaded where it can be either deployed or easily loaded over someone's shoulder to be taken wherever it needs to go. Good idea. Now I can't claim to have invented that little jewel. Kidding, I know it's been around for a while.

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    The overriding point that I try to make in the articles that I write is this, there are always different ways of doing things. I'm not saying one way works better than another. I want people to open their minds, listen to what other people do, try it out for themselves, and find out what works best for their crew. Then practice it consistently. By trying different methods, we not only learn what works best for us, but we also come up with alternate ways of operating. That way when what we always do fails, we have some idea of a backup plan.
    Last edited by manascl; 08-19-2006 at 09:00 AM.

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    I have to disagree at the difficulty of the way I discribed. If your members are trained (and they better be) it is a simple process. The Engine company in my house practices it on a regular basis, and it is very quick and very simple. As with anything on this job, everyone should be on the same page, if they are not, do it until they are.

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    I can see everyone's point.
    Last edited by manascl; 08-16-2006 at 07:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    The biggest mistake I see is stretching a line before knowing where the fire is. Simply walking around the building does not automatically find the fire location for you. As many of us have stated before....you need to send somebody in to locate the fire BEFORE you stretch your line.

    Im no fan of preconnected lines....but thats another debate....but to answer the question....after you've made the mistake of stretching prematurly, and there is a need to increase the lenth of the line....very simple (at least for us)...with the nozzle closed (not shutting down the line at the pump), remove the main stream tip from the nozzle (leaving just the shut off), add the needed lenths to the nozzle shut off, add a new nozzle to the last lenth and then open the 1st nozzle...simple.
    MattyJ,

    That is exactly what I found as the biggest lesson to be learned from this drill...not how to correct the error...but how to AVOID it in the first place.

    Locate-Confine-Extinguish...I've been part of the same mistake in a former dept that didn't stress this time honored traditional method of fire control and know first hand what happens when you ignore this sound advice.

    All the other stuff IMHO can be debated at length but to order a line started before the true location of the fire is known is inexcusible and along with the second due stretching past you...a long talk and possible transfer would be in the future for an officer around here.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-09-2006 at 09:27 PM.

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