1. #1
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    Default Offensive or Defensive

    How does everyone decide when to go in or when to let it burn? Some of the neighboring departments in our area think that if you can't save all of the house it is not worth fighting, so just make sure that the next one doesn't catch. My department on the other hand dissagrees with this, and we think that is there is a room that you can safely go into then do it. Does anyone have any guidelines or ideas on how far gone is to far?
    I suppose everyone agrees that if all the walls are down you cant do much, but what about if it is a seven or eight room home and the porch and first two room in front are gone?(or somthing like that)

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    I agree with you. If there is something worth saving then save it. I dont agree with standing in the yard and looking at it burn when half the house was good when you got there. And please dont **** into a window when the other half is good. But the other side of a token says dont go ape sh*t when 99% is going and you are trying to put a mark on your lid for good looks. Your jut going to hurt somebody.
    just my thoughts.

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    just remember this is the house or anything in it going to be saved? is the owner on the phone with the insurance people right now? is it worth your life to save a foundation? if you can save something go for it if not hit it from the windows?

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    Life safety is #1...everything comes after life safety.

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    First of all, I would like to make a couple of statements:
    I believe in aggressive firefighting!
    I believe in risk management!
    (If you are able to put the two together, then you should be doing a good job at the fire scene. )

    With this being said.......I don't think that there is such a thing as "saving a room". If you do save part of the structure, will the homeowner be able just repair what was damaged or will the whole thing be demolished so that they can start from scratch. Between fire, heat, smoke and water damage....it is ALL "damage".

    Depending on manpower, equipment and training, you may have to protect the exposures and let the fire burn itself out. If you are able to save some of the homeowners possessions without risking life or limb, then great. You are doing what the community needs you to do.

    All in all, just remember what MEDIC0372 posted......."Life safety is #1"
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    1) Get in there and search

    2) Get in there and put the fire out

    3) Take up and have some ice cream

    Seven or eight room house with two rooms involved in fire, you better get in there and put it out. Thats the bread and butter of what we do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewelk33
    1) Get in there and search

    2) Get in there and put the fire out

    3) Take up and have some ice cream

    Seven or eight room house with two rooms involved in fire, you better get in there and put it out. Thats the bread and butter of what we do!
    Amen!

    I'm with ya Brother!



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    Just because the house will end up being tore down in a week doesn't mean you don't go in. If you can safely get some of the contents out, go for it. Yeah, they might stink, but where else you gonna get a picture of great-great-grandpa with Thomas Edison?
    Some things are worth saving (if it can be done without high risk to life) even if the house will be demolished. Put it out, go home. It's faster to attack then to spray from the sidewalk.
    Cheers,
    Gord

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    Cool I agree.......

    I agree with FIRENUT, there are a lot of things to consider. I still don't understand why we feel the need to just run on in....... I am aggressive, but let's be smart here...... Endangering yourself and your crew to "save" a room doesn't make sense. Can the occupant live in that one room? If it's only one room you're gonna save, I say just get the personal possessions out, call the Red Cross or whatever help your community has and let them rebuild. I am sure that somebody will say "great way to promote your public image" to that I say this, jeopardizing your safety for your "public image" is rediculous..... Risk a lil' to gain a lot, let's not Risk a lot to gain a lil'.........
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    It's not about saving "a room". It's about saving a structure and the rest of "the rooms". To do that, you need to get to the seat of the fire and confine it, and then extinguish it. If you want any respect as a firefighter, you had at-least be able to do that. PS, this isn't done from the street....
    The literal, lock step following of the "save a little, risk a little...." is turning a whole new generation of firefighters' into a bunch of pansies.
    Besides, it is about public image. I'm a full-time career firefighter supported by my city and its taxes. If I let everything burn down because it might be a risk, it won't take long for those tax payers to realize they don't need 400 of us. Maybe just 10 or 15 to be spectators. With really great seats I may add.
    Our Mission statement states: "To protect the life and property of the people in St. Paul by providing quality service by dedicated professionals." No where in there did it state "unless it may pose a risk" or otherwise be scary for some.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Risk vs. Benefit

    I believe the saying goes like this:

    Risk a lot to save a lot,
    Risk a little to save a little!!

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    Staying out of this discussion. Actually, I'm sure most people know my feelings on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Staying out of this discussion. Actually, I'm sure most people know my feelings on this topic.
    So why even bother posting in this thread
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    ....................
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 03-18-2008 at 04:08 AM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Cool grasstrimmer.....

    Grasstrimmer,
    With the scenario that you brought up in your first post, I say get in and get the job done..... If possible, come in from the uninvolved side and start your fire attack when you reach the fire......
    I am always enertained when I hear crews say "man, that was a great save" and then when you go by and look at their "save" its little more than one room. You saved a room..... good for you. My favorite was when a crew was going off duty and telling us about how they saved this mobile home this one time....... we went by and the Insurance Adjuster was there. My Captain, myself and our FFs were talking to the Adjuster, we all got a good laugh when the Adjuster said "this is what you guys call a save, right? Just so that you know, we are going to put the wheels back on and tow the house outta here tomorrow." Come to find out, even with a lil' bit of damage this company prefers just to tow 'em off and replace them.
    When we told the crew about what the Adjuster said they all kinda chuckled..... "figures" is what I can remember one of them even saying.

    Just like in the Standard Fire Orders for wildland firefighting....... "Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first." It used to say "Fight fire aggressively, providing for safety first." If the fire/smoke conditions, building construction, manpower, water supply, the Departments Policies and training of the crew all support an interior attack then get the job done. If not, then re-evaluate and do whatcha can.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT
    First of all, I would like to make a couple of statements:
    I believe in aggressive firefighting!
    I believe in risk management!
    (If you are able to put the two together, then you should be doing a good job at the fire scene. )

    With this being said.......I don't think that there is such a thing as "saving a room". If you do save part of the structure, will the homeowner be able just repair what was damaged or will the whole thing be demolished so that they can start from scratch. Between fire, heat, smoke and water damage....it is ALL "damage".

    Depending on manpower, equipment and training, you may have to protect the exposures and let the fire burn itself out. If you are able to save some of the homeowners possessions without risking life or limb, then great. You are doing what the community needs you to do.

    All in all, just remember what MEDIC0372 posted......."Life safety is #1"
    And if that doesn't work, try hitting it with your purse!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    And if that doesn't work, try hitting it with your purse!
    LMAO!
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    You can be aggressive and get right in and fight the fire.. after all, that's what we are paid to do.. however...

    There are structures that are lost causes the moment we arrive. Are we going to kill someone over a building that is well involved?

    That's were the "risk little to save little" comes in...otherwise.. get in, whack it hard, overhaul it, then go home with the same number of people you went to battle with!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Cool Captain Gonzo.....

    Amen to that Capt............
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy
    I agree with FIRENUT, there are a lot of things to consider. I still don't understand why we feel the need to just run on in....... I am aggressive, but let's be smart here...... Endangering yourself and your crew to "save" a room doesn't make sense. Can the occupant live in that one room? If it's only one room you're gonna save, I say just get the personal possessions out, call the Red Cross or whatever help your community has and let them rebuild. I am sure that somebody will say "great way to promote your public image" to that I say this, jeopardizing your safety for your "public image" is rediculous..... Risk a lil' to gain a lot, let's not Risk a lot to gain a lil'.........
    I think it's easier to hold a hose than carry out a room full of crap. Is salvage under fire conditions safer than attack under fire conditions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy
    Grasstrimmer,
    With the scenario that you brought up in your first post, I say get in and get the job done..... If possible, come in from the uninvolved side and start your fire attack when you reach the fire......
    I am always enertained when I hear crews say "man, that was a great save" and then when you go by and look at their "save" its little more than one room. You saved a room..... good for you. My favorite was when a crew was going off duty and telling us about how they saved this mobile home this one time....... we went by and the Insurance Adjuster was there. My Captain, myself and our FFs were talking to the Adjuster, we all got a good laugh when the Adjuster said "this is what you guys call a save, right? Just so that you know, we are going to put the wheels back on and tow the house outta here tomorrow." Come to find out, even with a lil' bit of damage this company prefers just to tow 'em off and replace them.
    When we told the crew about what the Adjuster said they all kinda chuckled..... "figures" is what I can remember one of them even saying.
    But did they save some of the stuff inside?

    I work in a poor neighborhood. The landlords often tear down the houses after they burn. But there's plenty of stuff inside that's important to the people there.

    Screw an adjuster. I bet he's insured to the teeth; he can afford to laugh.

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    Cool Answers

    Yes they did save most of the stuff in the effected areas.
    I agree with the Adjuster comment..... easier to laugh it off when it's not your crap or house that is gone.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Cool So did I......

    This was in a very low income area...... we're talkin' about an area that L.A.P.D. used to give the homeless people bus tickets to go so that they would get outta their City.
    So there is a lot of centimental value with their belongings....... They still did a great job, I am not knockin' 'em at all.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum
    It's not about saving "a room". It's about saving a structure and the rest of "the rooms". To do that, you need to get to the seat of the fire and confine it, and then extinguish it. If you want any respect as a firefighter, you had at-least be able to do that. PS, this isn't done from the street....
    The literal, lock step following of the "save a little, risk a little...." is turning a whole new generation of firefighters' into a bunch of pansies.
    Besides, it is about public image. I'm a full-time career firefighter supported by my city and its taxes. If I let everything burn down because it might be a risk, it won't take long for those tax payers to realize they don't need 400 of us. Maybe just 10 or 15 to be spectators. With really great seats I may add.
    Our Mission statement states: "To protect the life and property of the people in St. Paul by providing quality service by dedicated professionals." No where in there did it state "unless it may pose a risk" or otherwise be scary for some.
    I guess you are right....Firefighter + Brain = Pansy.

    So I guess that we need to change how we teach firefighting 101. You will no longer be allowed to have a defensive attack. ALL attacks will be offensive. That IS what you are talking about...right???

    I am not telling you that we need to back off at all fires so that we won't break a sweat. I just believe that if am going to give my life in a fire, I would hope that it would be for a better reason than "That's what they pay me for".

    One more thing.....Ask your wife and kids if it is OK for you to give your life in a fire because you didn't want the city to loose any tax dollars.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT

    One more thing.....Ask your wife and kids if it is OK for you to give your life in a fire because you didn't want the city to loose any tax dollars.
    Okay, I'll go do that. Meanwhile, YOU explain to the family that is watching their stuff burn up that the fire is too big and scary. "Don't worry,sir,the insurance will pay for your wedding album and the flag your father was buried in."

    Some of the "firefighters" on here congratulating each other on their brains better work on getting some ball$. Saving property is one of the things they pay you for. If you're not willing to do it,at least let the public know. "Attention citizens. If your stuff catches fire, the East Teabag VFD will hose it down from the street. Contributions gratefully accepted. Thank you."

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