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    Angry NFPA Standard Reaching Too Far??.....

    I don't have all the details yet, but there are reportedly proposed changes to the NFPA's SCBA Standards in the works. If adopted in their present form, including restrictions that would be attached, I think that it's time to put a stop to the NFPA's Standard-making role for the Fire Service.

    AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AT THIS TIME, the proposed standard (I don't have the number yet, I'll get later today) would REQUIRE that any FD applying for AFG Grants would have to have the proposed SCBA in use in their departments, AS A CONDITION FOR APPYING FOR A GRANT.

    In other words, Poortown Rural VFD wants to apply for a AFG grant to replace their 1965 Rustbucket 750 gpm Engine. Under this standard, they would have to have the SCBA referenced in the standard, already in use, BEFORE they could apply for a grant.

    THIS AMOUNTS TO NOTHING SHORT OF A PRIVATE BUSINESS TELLING THE GOVERNMENT WHO TO GIVE GRANTS TO, OR WHO TO REFUSE. I'll check around and get more info and post it ASAP, if anyone else has anything on this, please post it. THANK YOU.
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    Hey Fred, I know you just love the NFPA. Any insight?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Hey Fred, I know you just love the NFPA. Any insight?
    Every time you clip on that PSS on your turnouts...you can remember how NFPA fouled up two features our members wanted to have on the system. (Beener, and the size and therefore limiting the length of our rope.)

    At one time the NFPA was a organization that did much for the fire service...My opinion is that they have been corupted from the inside and now are nothing more than a agent for the manufactures. Too many individuals with little experience or relevant credentials having too much influence over those who have the experience and knowledge.

    FTM-PTB

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    Doesn't make any sense at all. How could NFPA determine who can apply for an AFG grant? I'm thinking this may be another misinterpretation of a proposal, much like the "everyone must use the same blue bottle" one that was going around a few months ago.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    If the NFPA wants to determine who gets AFG grants, then they better damn well pony up $$$$$$$$ to add to the pot!
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    This and other such rumors have been running around for a while. AFG isn't going to fund vehicles anymore, no more health and wellness programs, no more training. This one sounds like a spur of one I heard before that departments couldn't apply for vehicles until they had replaced their PPE and SCBA with NFPA compliant equipment. While I generally encourage replacing equipment before vehicles anyway because of the odds (1 in 10 truck apps awarded versus 1 in 3 equipment apps), there's a difference between compliant and safe. Our training SCBA are 20+ year old steel bottled monsters. But they are safe to use, and they do their job of protecting my lungs. Otherwise I wouldn't be using them.

    There is no way this would fly because most departments that don't have NFPA compliance on one item, generally don't have it on others. And those that are applying for new trucks will still have old ones that aren't NFPA compliant, and those that replace PPE probably will have SCBA, or hose, or something else non-compliant. While NFPA compliance is a nice goal, it's not going to happen overnight or even with one year's worth of grant awards. There isn't enough money in the program for this to happen. Many I work with couldn't afford the matching funds to replace everything at once. So if there is any basis to the rumor, this is probably another case of someone trying to start some high and mighty stance that is far from based in reality. Luckily those in control of the program are living in reality.

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    This was attached to an email I received from the NY Association of Fire Chiefs about the proposed changes to NFPA 1981 2007 edition:

    (It had a Tyco/Scott letterhead at the top that didnt copy into this format)

    NFPA 2007 Edition – Overview of Changes

    The following information is intended to supply you a top level overview and reference point pertaining to the key changes to the NFPA 1981 Standard for Self Contained Breathing Apparatus and 1982 Standard for Personal Alert Safety Systems. It is important to note that this document is not all inclusive but rather highlights the significant upcoming changes to the standards. The below topics are addressed in random order of importance.

     The changes to the NFPA 1981 Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus for Fire and Emergency Services 2007 edition and NFPA 1982 Standard on Personal Alert Safety Systems (PASS) 2007 edition become effective in February 2007. Mandatory implementation becomes effective in August 2007. This means that SCBA manufacturers can begin shipping 2007 compliant products in February and must ship by August 2007.

     CBRN protection is mandatory under the NFPA 1981, 2007 edition for all SCBA’s and will be required to receive grant money from the Assistance to Fire Grants (AFG). Bottom line; CBRN will not be just a nice to have but rather a must have for compliance purposes and to be eligible to receive grant money from AFG.

     Changes in communications for SCBA’s include a performance requirement for voice communication systems set at an 85% minimum score at 10 feet. The new mechanical voice diaphragm performance test will have an 80% minimum score at 5 feet. In layman terms this means electronic voice amplification will most likely be required with every 2007 compliant SCBA that is shipped.

     As a normal function of the human breathing cycle carbon dioxide (CO2) is exhaled. To align itself more closely to the EN Standards (European Standard) NFPA adopted a 1% CO2 requirement inside the face piece versus the current 1.5%. This simply means that amount of measured carbon dioxide within the SCBA face piece is required to be 1% or less.

     As part of new environmental test requirements NFPA added a heat soak and water immersion test for both the SCBA and PASS devices. Under the new performance requirement all electronics, for example, voice amps, HUD, and PASS devices must pass the heat soak/water immersion test. The testing involves a 350°F heat soak for 15 minutes, a 2 minute wait time, followed by immersion into approximately 5 feet of water for 15 minutes. The device must remain waterproof. The cycle of heat soak and water immersion is repeated a total of 6 times.

     A HUD and Pressure Gauge will be required for all Self Contained Breathing Apparatus. Changes to the standard will now require both devices as oppose to the NFPA 1981, 2002 Standard which allows only a HUD. Note that electrical pressure gauges must also have a separate power source from all other electronics.

     PASS devices have a new muffle test in which it has to release 1 data point greater than 95dBA at 10 feet while the user is in five different positions including face down, supine right/left, and fetal right/left. Simply stated, the muffle test simulates the proper function of a PASS device in any position of a potential downed or trapped emergency responder or firefighter.



    NFPA 2007 Edition – Overview of Changes (continued)



     A 3 new hour destructive tumble test has also been added to PASS devices to push the device to the breaking point. The PASS is placed in a four foot diameter cage and tumbled for three hours. The PASS device must properly function per the manufacturer’s specification upon completion of the test.

     Data logging will also be required for all PASS devices. The data logging function which features date/time stamps will log the most recent 200 events, for example, low battery alert, PASS on/off mode, pre-alarm and reset notification. Once the data logging function reaches the 200th data point it cycles again replacing the first event and so forth. Note that the standard does not require end users to use data logging but rather only to have the ability for data logging.

    The Technical Correlation Committee (TCC) has approved the proposed changes to NFPA 1981 & 1982 Standards thus the process has moved forward to the NFPA Standards Council. In October 2006, comments (if any) from the NFPA general membership will be reviewed and if there is no major pushback the Standards will be adopted for publication in February 2007.


    I dont know if any literary freedom was taken in the process of summarizing the proposed changes. But that is what I was sent.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Post OK, Here It Is.................

    If I've done it correctly, here is the attachment from the email that I received on this subject. Note the SECOND BULLETED PARAGRAPH. I rest my case.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by hwoods; 08-25-2006 at 02:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods
    If I've done it correctly, here is the attachment from the email that I received on this subject. Note the SECOND BULLETED PARAGRAPH. I rest my case.
    I beat you to it Harve!
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    I received the following e-mail from the NYS Assoc. of Fire Chiefs.

    "NFPA Proposed Changes To The Breathing Apparatus Standard

    Attached in Word Document are the proposed changes for the SCBA NFPA
    Standard 1981 that will take effect in 2007 if this Standard is
    adopted. The Technical Committee has adopted the changes and there
    will be a comment period in October for the fire service. If there are
    no challenges, it will take effect in February 2007. Strictly My

    Opinion:
    It appears some of the changes that were made in the Standard in 2002
    are not as good as they thought, and are making additional changes to
    correct their errors. I sure wish they would stop trying to reinvent
    the wheel and to fix something that wasn't broke! And how about private
    enterprise telling the government to deny applicants for Assistance To
    Firefighter Grants if they don't have CBRN approved SCBA. The section
    I refer to follows:

    CBRN protection is mandatory under the NFPA 1981, 2007 edition
    for all SCBA?s and will be required to receive grant money from the
    Assistance to Fire Grants (AFG). Bottom line; CBRN will not be just a
    nice to have but rather a must have for compliance purposes and to be
    eligible to receive grant money from AFG.

    I guess they expect all departments to apply for grants to purchase
    CBRN. Talk about cornering the market!

    These proposed changes will cause dramatic increases in the cost of
    SCBA, something many departments have replaced over the past few years
    while trying to comply with the 2002 edition of NFPA 1981, and now more
    changes. Seems like just when you are ready to cross the goal line,
    they move it another ten yards down field! I hope some of you have
    some comments and make them known to NFPA in October.

    Maybe what needs a revision is the NFPA.

    Just my thoughts which I expressed on the floor during a meeting at
    the NYSAFC Chiefs Conference this past June

    chiefhac"

    ...and the attachment that accompanied it.

    NFPA 2007 Edition – Overview of Changes

    The following information is intended to supply you a top level overview and reference point pertaining to the key changes to the NFPA 1981 Standard for Self Contained Breathing Apparatus and 1982 Standard for Personal Alert Safety Systems. It is important to note that this document is not all inclusive but rather highlights the significant upcoming changes to the standards. The below topics are addressed in random order of importance.

    - The changes to the NFPA 1981 Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus for Fire and Emergency Services 2007 edition and NFPA 1982 Standard on Personal Alert Safety Systems (PASS) 2007 edition become effective in February 2007. Mandatory implementation becomes effective in August 2007. This means that SCBA manufacturers can begin shipping 2007 compliant products in February and must ship by August 2007.

    - CBRN protection is mandatory under the NFPA 1981, 2007 edition for all SCBA’s and will be required to receive grant money from the Assistance to Fire Grants (AFG). Bottom line; CBRN will not be just a nice to have but rather a must have for compliance purposes and to be eligible to receive grant money from AFG.

    - Changes in communications for SCBA’s include a performance requirement for voice communication systems set at an 85% minimum score at 10 feet. The new mechanical voice diaphragm performance test will have an 80% minimum score at 5 feet. In layman terms this means electronic voice amplification will most likely be required with every 2007 compliant SCBA that is shipped.

    - As a normal function of the human breathing cycle carbon dioxide (CO2) is exhaled. To align itself more closely to the EN Standards (European Standard) NFPA adopted a 1% CO2 requirement inside the face piece versus the current 1.5%. This simply means that amount of measured carbon dioxide within the SCBA face piece is required to be 1% or less.

    - As part of new environmental test requirements NFPA added a heat soak and water immersion test for both the SCBA and PASS devices. Under the new performance requirement all electronics, for example, voice amps, HUD, and PASS devices must pass the heat soak/water immersion test. The testing involves a 350°F heat soak for 15 minutes, a 2 minute wait time, followed by immersion into approximately 5 feet of water for 15 minutes. The device must remain waterproof. The cycle of heat soak and water immersion is repeated a total of 6 times.

    - A HUD and Pressure Gauge will be required for all Self Contained Breathing Apparatus. Changes to the standard will now require both devices as oppose to the NFPA 1981, 2002 Standard which allows only a HUD. Note that electrical pressure gauges must also have a separate power source from all other electronics.

    - PASS devices have a new muffle test in which it has to release 1 data point greater than 95dBA at 10 feet while the user is in five different positions including face down, supine right/left, and fetal right/left. Simply stated, the muffle test simulates the proper function of a PASS device in any position of a potential downed or trapped emergency responder or firefighter.

    NFPA 2007 Edition – Overview of Changes (continued)

    - A 3 new hour destructive tumble test has also been added to PASS devices to push the device to the breaking point. The PASS is placed in a four foot diameter cage and tumbled for three hours. The PASS device must properly function per the manufacturer’s specification upon completion of the test.

    - Data logging will also be required for all PASS devices. The data logging function which features date/time stamps will log the most recent 200 events, for example, low battery alert, PASS on/off mode, pre-alarm and reset notification. Once the data logging function reaches the 200th data point it cycles again replacing the first event and so forth. Note that the standard does not require end users to use data logging but rather only to have the ability for data logging.

    The Technical Correlation Committee (TCC) has approved the proposed changes to NFPA 1981 & 1982 Standards thus the process has moved forward to the NFPA Standards Council. In October 2006, comments (if any) from the NFPA general membership will be reviewed and if there is no major pushback the Standards will be adopted for publication in February 2007.
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    Damn Shawn.....you're fast.
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    All - that's nothing new. You have always had to buy NFPA compliant (current standard) equipment with grant funds. So anyone that is going to buy SCBA with awards from the 2006 AFG program has to buy 2007 edition compliant SCBA. Same as in prior years when you had to buy SCBA that was compliant with 2002 edition. And why you have to buy new apparatus compliant with NFPA 1901's latest.

    This is not news by any means, and you certainly don't have to have compliant before applying.

    AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AT THIS TIME, the proposed standard (I don't have the number yet, I'll get later today) would REQUIRE that any FD applying for AFG Grants would have to have the proposed SCBA in use in their departments, AS A CONDITION FOR APPYING FOR A GRANT.
    So this isn't the case at all Harve. You must be having on off day, I didn't think I'd ever have to correct you on anything.

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    Post I Dunno.............

    Thanks Brian, I'll try to get my BP back down to avoid a stroke. BUT, I got a hunch that I'm not the only one that read it that way. We should get a clarification way ahead of time. I still don't like it. To me, this whole thing smells unethical. A "proposed Change" comes out on Scott/Tyco Letterhead?? I ain't happy, and I WILL be speaking out during the comment period, and I'd encourage everyone else who may be concerned to do the same. BUT, Regardless, Thank you for adding a knowledgeable viewpoint to the discussion. Stay Safe out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFire
    Damn Shawn.....you're fast.
    Actually I got the email, then thought I should check FH to see if it has been posted. Apparently a lot of people had an interest in these changes. It was posted here and I happened to have the email up still so I cut and pasted.

    Besides for once we can use Georges advice, we now have the opportunity to comment on the proposed changes and influence the 2007 edition of NFPA 1981. Should we not exercise our right to comment and change the standard, we lose our right to bitch about the standard once it is in place.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    This line in the email appears to have been added AFTER the fact by someone, just from the way it's worded:

    Bottom line; CBRN will not be just a nice to have but rather a must have for compliance purposes and to be eligible to receive grant money from AFG.
    I think the only thing it refers to is that if you want AFG money for buying SCBA, they have to comply with the 2007 standard. Not that if you want ANY grant money at all for anything, your entire department needs to be fully outfitted with 2007 standard compliant SCBA. If there were the case, it would force just about every department out there to upgrade. Not likely. As was already said, it has always been common practice for equipment purchased with grant money to be standards compliant, and rightfully so in my opinion.

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    No problem Harve, now I need to correct me. You can really drop your BP because this isn't in effect for the 2006 program since the new standards won't be adopted until February 2007. You only have to purchase to level of the NFPA standard at the time of application, not award. So people can still buy the non CBRN compliant SCBA. Unless of course for the award money you can still get the CBRN stuff, might as well get the better stuff for the same money. But it's not required.

    So we're in somewhat of a pickle with NFPA 1971 because the extra cost of the DRDs has not been factored into the 2006 program because at the time of the application the standard wasn't in place. So they may not have adjusted their limits on PPE to allow the purchase of the new standard. I'm working on getting an answer, but so far no peeps out of the little birdies.

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    For my own peace of mind, I just forwarded this to my chief so that he could look into it also. I tend to agree with Harve; this does seem a little bit strange/unusual/f****ed up.
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    Sounds to me like you won't be able to buy any that aren't CBRN with the grant money, not that you won't be able to get grant money unless you have them.

    Larry

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    Wait about 3-8 years when Scott and Morning Pride Combine, with MSA and Globe right behind them or just before them. Then we will see some corruption!!

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    Maybe I'm missing something, but why would you have to buy an SCBA that is rated to protect you from a 30 minute exposue to HD (sulfer mustard) or GB (Sarin) which are skin absorbable? Oh wait, I get it now, $$$ for the manufacturers who sit on the NFPA committees, nevermind.

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    Apparantley, you can't make sell enough to meet your sales goals if you simply follow the preamble in the NFPA standards...

    1.1.4 Nothing herein shall restrict any jurisdiction or manufacturer from exceeding these minimum requirements

    HUD's? Make 'em mandatory.

    Drop the CO2 from 1.5% to 1%? Why not, we got to do it for Europe already.

    CBRN? Oh, got to sell more CBRN, ah, make it part of the minimum too!

    It hasn't been voted on yet -- those of you who are NFPA members, send in the comments. And those who can vote at the annual meeting, this might be a good place to raise a stink.

    Hell, remember the stink the Municipal Managers put up over 1710 -- if you're getting annoyed at the cost of useless improvements driving up the costs, remind the bean counters about their influence on the sales pitches like CBRN becoming required; or the 15 year maximum life recommendations for apparatus.

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    To be honest, I worked quite a few apps for SCBA this year and there was very little difference in price between CBRN and non-CBRN units. The only difference I saw on one manufacturer was the regulator. The rest of the unit was the same. For the very minimal cost difference I'd rather have the CBRN myself.

    And a nice reliable weapon to ward off the citizens trying to take my airpack if an attack does occur. Maybe just a taser. They look like fun. For the guy with the trigger end that is.

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    I can think of a several uses for a taser: finance board meetings, town board meetings, certain members of the B shift

    We did an upgrade of our Scott 4.5's in 2003, thanks to the AFG. The cost differance between a standard regulator and a CBRN regulator was about $300 per unit. Has the price dropped in the past three years?
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 08-25-2006 at 11:00 PM.
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    I saw anywhere from a $100-$300 difference. Not much in my mind considering the whole unit was $4000-4500 with CBRN.

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    Hey, whats going on here? I thought everyone here thought the NFPA was great? Now, all of a sudden no one likes them??? Why anyone would let them tell you how to run your operation is beyond me. If you want some nobody who knows nothing about your department telling you how to do things, then make me your chief - I could use the extra money (I'm a for profit outfit too!) and you'd probably be better off!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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