Pierce Arrow XT

[NewJerseyFFII]

Any fire departments or members have information on the new 2007 Pierce Arrow XT chassis , Specs on engine sizes and brands " Cat, Detriot, Cummins, Etc. Cab sizes , Front & Rear Axle GVW, !...

[Chauffeur6]

Aside from the engine tunnel maybe being a bit bigger to accommodate the new engine requirements, I don't know what else they would change. Have you heard something different suggesting a drastic remodeling? It's still a very new chassis, I can't imagine them doing a huge revamp so soon, unless they've gotten a lot of feedback that pushed them to. They seem to be extremely popular.

[BoxAlarm187]

The only mod that I saw when I looked at one briefly is that the instrument panel between the driver and officer now has a small section that is angled towards the driver for driver-specific switches.

There could certainly be more, but that's all that I saw.

[oldestwiseowl]

My source regarding the Arrow XT is a long-time Finleyfire mechanic which organization was the No1 seller last year of Pierce apparatus nationwide. He says that the revised model was altered in the accessability of entering/exiting from the doors ; a problem that was addressed in response to client requests.

[NewJerseyFFII]

Aside from the engine tunnel maybe being a bit bigger to accommodate the new engine requirements, I don't know what else they would change. Have you heard something different suggesting a drastic remodeling? It's still a very new chassis, I can't imagine them doing a huge revamp so soon, unless they've gotten a lot of feedback that pushed them to. They seem to be extremely popular.

Do you think Pierce will start building the Arrow XT with ( Cummins ) engines ? I would like to see a " Cummins " 450 HP in the XT chassis!...

[Chauffeur6]

Do you think Pierce will start building the Arrow XT with ( Cummins ) engines ? I would like to see a " Cummins " 450 HP in the XT chassis!...

They already build them with the Cummins ISM, but apparently only up to 435HP. That seems odd to me seeing as how they offer the Detroit and Cat in ratings over 500HP. I'm not really sure why they can offer all the same powertrain packages as the Dash and Lance cabs, but the HP on the ISM is limited. They also apparently don't offer it with the ISL either, although that's obviously a less powerful motor.

[BVFD1983]

It's marketed as an all go/no show big city rig. Most cities spec the big engines anyways.

[Chauffeur6]

It's marketed as an all go/no show big city rig. Most cities spec the big engines anyways.

Right, which is why it's hard to understand why the Dash/Lance are offered with the S60, C13, and ISM at ratings of 500HP+, whereas the XT is only offered with the S60 and C13 at 500HP+, not the ISM. According to both the website and brochure, the XT can only be had with a max 435HP ISM. I'm definitely no expert on Cummins engines, so there has to be something I'm missing here. Something that makes enough of a difference between the 435HP model ISM opposed to the higher HP models, coupled with a significant enough difference under the hood of the XT opposed to the Dash/Lance that won't allow it to work.

[NewJerseyFFII]

Maybe a larger block Cummins engine won't fit under the hood of the Pierce Arrow XT chassis cab. A 435 HP Cummmins is great for a pumper, but not so good on a heavy rescue or large ladder tower!..

[BVFD1983]

All ISM blocks are the same physical size and displacement. It's all in how they are tweaked...

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/4103680.pdf

They have the dyno charts on there.

Remember that horsepower is just a calculation of torque. Cummins ISL and ISM can both be rated at 400 HP but the ISL has a max torque of 1200 and the ISM 's max is 1550 both at 400 HP ratings, respectively.

HP = torque x RPM/5252

For some reason they rate 2 engines at 1200 ft. lbs. @ 1300 RPM with different horsepower ratings and it doesn't fit with the standard formula. Anyone engine experts here?

[Chauffeur6]

Ok, that's what I thought, that the blocks were the same size and displacement. Which means it makes even less sense now. All engines use the same transmission, the EVS4000, which can clearly handle more than the maximum HP and torque of these engines (600/1850). It has to be something else, some other difference preventing a higher HP ISM from being used in the XT. Unless it's just a typo on both the site and in the literature.

Anyway, I'm a Detroit guy myself, so it doesn't concern me too much.

[chiefengineer11]

Strictly SWAG, because I haven't looked at any of them, but off the top of my head I'd guess cooling the higher HP engine might well be a factor. How big of a radiator can they put in, and how about air flow over the engine? Both of those would be limiting factors. Crank more HP out of the same engine, you generate more heat. You gotta dissipate it somehow somewhere.

BVFD, I'm don't consider myself an engine expert even though I've been around them for quite a few years. But I never came across that formula before. Where'd you get it? I feel certain that there's a lot more to the HP/torque relationship than just that.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[BVFD1983]

That is the standard horsepower calculation. Horsepower is nothing more than a calculation of torque. If you see dyno charts from engines than rev over 6,000, you will see that torque and HP are always equal at 5252 RPM.

from http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html:

"300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be double at 4000 rpm."

1 HP is also equal to = 33,000 ft. lbs/1 minute

Get the picture? It's all about torque!

[TimWilson]

Presently only the Detorit Series 60 and the Cat C-13 are the standard engines available in the Arrow-XT chassis.

C-13 / 12.5L @ 485 and 525 hp

Series 60 / 14.0L @ 455, 470, 490, 515 hp.

This is current information as per the database from PIERCE that we use to create specifications and proposals with.

I doubt that you will see the ISL in a Arrow-XT since the Enforcer is already the "Non-Multiplexed" full-tilt cab chassis in the line-up. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just right now it is not available.

New products on the horizon............

Tim Wilson,
Employee of a Pierce Dealership

[Chauffeur6]

Tim,

Not offering the ISL makes perfect sense, as you said the Enforcer/Saber are the more "medium duty" of the custom chassis, at least as far as engine power goes. But what about the ISM? The Pierce site and chassis brochure indicates the XT is available with the ISM as an option up to 435HP. Is this info incorrect, per your current database, or will Pierce offer the Cummins upon request? And if so, do you have any idea what would prevent them from installing a higher HP ISM, while still being able to install the highest HP C13 and S60? Inquiring minds want to know!

[TimWilson]

Not sure why the Cummins is still advertised for the Arrow-XT. I checked several back product bulletins and updates and can't find anything calling for the ISM in the Arrow-XT.

When the Arrow-XT product was launched, the ISM was part of the engine line-up, but for whatever reason it was never a populated option sent out to the sales force. With that said, I have never had a customer request a ISM in a Arrow-XT based rig.

I not aware of any major reason why the ISM could not be installed in the Arrow-XT, it could be that the low number of ISM engines sold overall vs the cost of engineering the installation in the chassis doesn't justifiy the expense of the option?

Tim Wilson

[NewJerseyFFII]

Do you think that the " Arrow XT chassis " will become a top seller for pierce after they drop the " DASH & LANCE " from there lineup ?

[Chauffeur6]

I think it already has become one of their top sellers. There are a lot of depts out there that are still wary of the multiplexed cabs, and would rather have something tried and trued and built for no nonsense, dependable service. Not to say that Pierce's other chassis aren't dependable, but for many depts all the bells and whistles of the other cabs are either overkill or unaffordable for them.

If I had to guess going by the deliveries I've seen, I'd say that since the XT was introduced, the Dash is probably the top seller with the XT right behind it. The Enforcers are pretty popular also, especially since they're more or less just a medium duty Dash cab. The Lance is definitely at the low end of the scale, although of course at one time not so long ago they were the top sellers. Sales of the Lance really started to take a dive once the 2000 series cabs were introduced and the Dash was made functionally equivalent to the Lance, only the Dash was more compact without really sacrificing too much interior space. Quantum sales seem to be near the middle somewhere. I suspect most Saber cabs these days are sold packaged as a Contender Custom than anything else. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual annual count of chassis sold though, it would be interesting to see the trends.

But to answer your question, yes, I definitely do think sales will only increase once the other chassis are discontinued. Once the Lance and Dash are gone, the XT will assume the role of Pierce's top of the line traditional design cab.

[NewJerseyFFII]

Is the Pierce Arrow XT chassis lower in price than the Dash-or- Lance chassis because of the unit being hard wired , painted metal dash board, & interior door panels!...

[todd3603]

Don't quote me, not a dealer or Pierce affiliate, however I believe the Arrow XT is about $1500 less than the dash.