disturbing article

[MEAN15]

http://phillymag.com/articles/philad...re_the_firemen

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Maybe the first firehouse they should close is in Noel Weyrich's neighborhood. Maybe he feels a fair tradeoff for closed fire companies is his fire insurance rate going up. Maybe he is just another uninformed *******....You know the dangerous kind, the one that thinks he knows more then he really does.

[Mzanghetti]

Some of what he says makes a certain amount of sense, shifting assets to EMS inside of firefighting when you have stations making less than a hundred runs a year is not unreasonable. Do I take what he says with a grain of salt, you bet I do! Do I believe that IAFF does some unneccesary fear mongering, You bet I do! This is nothing more than political posturing on both sides. Both sides need to come together and discuss whay truly is best for the city and be honest about it. Do I believe that will happen??


YOU BET I DON'T!!!!

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

I would like to see those so called run stats before making assertations based on someone who refers to himself as a "contrarian". Also, I believe the PFD suppression companies respond on EMS runs.

[DaSharkie]

I would like to see those so called run stats before making assertations based on someone who refers to himself as a "contrarian". Also, I believe the PFD suppression companies respond on EMS runs.

Just because it has worked for the past 20 years does not mean that it is the best system. If companies indeed are not doing more than a few runs a week, then something is wrong with the equation here. Perhaps a re-vamping of staffing/districting is in order.

And as for apparatus reponding to medicals, I have two points:

1) they need to actually do something.

2) It does no good if you are waiting 20 plus minutes routinely for an ambulance.

Philly has been lambasted with bad PR and several major lawsuits involving deaths due to not utilizing thier resources (especially EMS) properly.

Both sides need to be realistic and open minded. It won't happen, but it needs to be done.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Well Weyrich calls for FIRING half the City of Philadelphia Fire Department. That in itself is all I need to see to realize HE has ZERO credibility. Add ambulances. Don't fire firefighters.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Using Weyrich logic, his idea would be to have 30 Engine Companies 14.5 Trucks serving a population around 1.5 million. Absolutely insane. Also, in the 16 years that the department has been "gathering cobwebs", they have lost in my estimation 16 to 17 members from LODD's. I stand by my opinion that Weyrich is a hack.

[Mzanghetti]

Just because it has worked for the past 20 years does not mean that it is the best system. If companies indeed are not doing more than a few runs a week, then something is wrong with the equation here. Perhaps a re-vamping of staffing/districting is in order.

And as for apparatus reponding to medicals, I have two points:

1) they need to actually do something.

2) It does no good if you are waiting 20 plus minutes routinely for an ambulance.

Philly has been lambasted with bad PR and several major lawsuits involving deaths due to not utilizing thier resources (especially EMS) properly.

Both sides need to be realistic and open minded. It won't happen, but it needs to be done.

Nothing hurts FD Public Relations more than seeing a fire engine with 3 or 4 firefighters standing around doing nothing waiting for the ambulance. There is quite a bit of documentation around about how there are fewer and fewer structure fires every year. Ems runs are constantly increasing. I just think that Fd's that look down and refuse to do EMS cuz they are waiting for the big one are out of touch with todays reality. It is possible that this author was using hyperbole to make a point as well. There needs to be some changes in the way things seem to be working there and the author is just voicing his opinion in the discussion

[ADSNWFLD]

If you have an engine crew standing around and doing nothing on an EMS run they should be retrained. Their is nothing treatment wise an ALS engine can't do that the ambulance can. If their is an extended wait then the engine should be done and waiting to transport by the time the MICU arrives.
EMS is rapidly becoming the bulk ouf our job, get used to it or retire.

[ChicagoFF]

EMS is rapidly becoming the bulk ouf our job, get used to it or retire.

Or transfer to a company where ems is not the majority of the work. Everyone keeps saying that they don't do fires anymore. There are still plenty of working companies here, and I'm sure there are around the country as well. For those who like the ems crap, great. Get yourself on an ambo and be happy. But that does not change the fact that the FIRE departments main repsonsibility is to fight fires. Get used to it or go to an ambo. The ems "side" of the department (although my job has no more in common with a paramedic than it does with a plumber) is always telling us how much ems is increasing, but if we sent two or three rigs to every auto, rubbish, dumpster, etc - like we now do to every tummy ache, stubbed toe, drunk, or guy asleep on the sidewalk, we could claim that fire was taking over, get used to it and get ems out of the house. Just because every BS run gets an engine or two does not mean ems is increasing, it just means the city is wasting time and resources on BS.

[ChicagoFF]

There is quite a bit of documentation around about how there are fewer and fewer structure fires every year. Ems runs are constantly increasing.

I just had five fires in four shifts, three shifts without, then another last night. Tell me which one we should have had a delayed response to so that we could go on an ems run where an engine is such a big help. We don't even carry c-collars, for christs sake. But we do carry alot of hose and five guys trained to put out fires. Which is more important again? Where are you a fireman?

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Posted by ChicagoFF

I just had five fires in four shifts, three shifts without, then another last night. Tell me which one we should have had a delayed response to so that we could go on an ems run where an engine is such a big help. We don't even carry c-collars, for christs sake. But we do carry alot of hose and five guys trained to put out fires. Which is more important again? Where are you a fireman?

From Mzanghetti's geocities page

Emergency Medical Technician-I work at Foxwoods Casino, Goshen Fire Department in Waterford, CT is where I volunteer as an EMT when I am off duty from my regular job. I actually live in the City of New London, but they have a full time paid fire department and don't use volunteers.

[MemphisE34a]

If you have an engine crew standing around and doing nothing on an EMS run they should be retrained. Their is nothing treatment wise an ALS engine can't do that the ambulance can. If their is an extended wait then the engine should be done and waiting to transport by the time the MICU arrives.
EMS is rapidly becoming the bulk ouf our job, get used to it or retire.

My crew and I stand around quite routinely. We do not need re-trained. What we need is to not be sent on BS EMS calls. I do not even need to here the call. I can call BS with I am sure over a 95% accuracy rate, just by hearing the description of the call from our dispatcher.

I do not mind at all going on EMS calls where we are needed. If we can have a positive outcome on the outcome of a patients condition, I am all for it. I do not need to go babysit a grown person who has had a stomach ache for the last 3 days because the ambulance is coming from across town and it would look better; aka - possibly reduce the risk of liability on the cities behalf because the 30 ALS ambulances we have are all tied up on other BS runs.

So Adsnwfld, what class would you recommend that I retake because my best treatment for people with stomach aches, headaches, stumped toes, cut fingers, back aches, or my favorite - the perverbial *** bleed consists of:

"Sir (or Maam) - Do you want to be taken to the hospital by ambulance?"

"Okay. Sit back and relax. The ambulance is coming from across town. There is not much I can do for you. If something gets worse let us know."

In Memphis, it is very clear that if someone calls and asks for an ambulance, they are going to get one, and maybe a fire company along with it. It is also very clear that regardless of how bogus, if that person wants to be transported, you take them.

That is not EMS taking over fire departments. You do realize that the "E" is for emergency.....right????

BS is taking over fire departments, not EMS.

[Weruj1]

while structure fires have on an average been on the decline ..............this guy sounds like a goofus to me. I cant imagine there is ONE city Philly company doing 1 run a week. So things maybe need to be shifted around ? Possibly but firing half of them ....plain ol ludicris. Chicago ..........not even a c-collar bro ?

[ChicagoFF]

I cant imagine there is ONE city Philly company doing 1 run a week. So things maybe need to be shifted around ? Possibly but firing half of them ....plain ol ludicris. Chicago ..........not even a c-collar bro ?

We have rigs here that probably do less than that. They are the airport crash rigs. Should we get rid of those??? Nope, not even collars. We used to carry them but they came and took them off awhile back.

[Bones42]

In my town:

FD (does not run on EMS calls) - 250 calls per year of which ~150 are BS. (In 2005, we pulled 1 3/4" lines off the engine only four times for the year)
EMS - 1500 calls per year of which ~1000 are BS.

On 1 of our engines, we have an AED (through state grant) and an oxygen bottle. C-collar? Most guys don't know what one is.

Do I agree with what this guy says? like someone state above, i'd need to see those stats first. I don't like seeing FD's justifying their time spent on duty by running BS EMS calls.

[HeavyRescueTech]

I guess no one would even consider the idea that maybe Philly is overstaffed on the supression side, and that the city would be better suited by closing down some of the slower supression units and reallocate the funds and manpower to deploy additional ambulances and help to repair the extremely understaffed EMS system in the city, right?

[jlcooke3]

Just like everywhere else in this country Philly doesn't have a staffing problem on EMS they have a patient overpopulation problem. The main problem isn't that there is not enough ambo's it's that there are too many "I think I broke my toe" or "I got a toothache" or some such other BS. Maybe one day EMS systems and Doctors will actually push for aggressive protocols that let EMS units tell BS patients to find another ride.

[EFD840]

Maybe one day EMS systems and Doctors will actually push for aggressive protocols that let EMS units tell BS patients to find another ride.

We can always dream....

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Nothing hurts FD Public Relations more than seeing a fire engine with 3 or 4 firefighters standing around doing nothing waiting for the ambulance.

Oh yeah? I can think of about 100 other things that are worse then what you just quoted. I am asking this question. Do you think having 30 Engine Companies and 14.5 Trucks serving an URBAN population of almost 1.5 million appropriate ? That is what Weyrich says. Your less and less fires is B.S. too. My department responds to more fires now then any other time in our 50 year history.