Thread: Metz Aerials

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    Default Metz Aerials

    [FONT=Arial]Looking for factual data on the metz aerials taht are being offered for sale in the US.

    Here are some of the questions that I currently have - may come up with more:

    1: What is teh load capacity of teh areials - both dry ane when flowing water.
    2: Are the aerial devices complaint to NFPA 1904
    3: With only a 2 1/2" pipe to the fly mounted standpipe - what is the rated gallonage of the aerial standpipe (500 Gallons)
    4: Does anybody have any experience with these aerials? Good / Bad - neutral

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quazar
    4: Does anybody have any experience with these aerials? Good / Bad - neutral
    Contact Spring Valley Hook & Ladder up in Rockland County for an answer to this. They've had one since 2002.

    http://www.hillhooks.org

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    do a search ............or scroll down to the bottom of the page.
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    The Metz aerials have been discussed here in the past, so as stated, doing a search will probably get you some of the information you're looking for.

    Meanwhile, have you visted the Metz USA website? http://www.metz-apparatus.com/

    Fire Apparatus Magazine did an in-depth article about Metz aerials about 2 years ago as I recall. Very informative. You might see if you can get a back issue.

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    Kennett Square Pa has had one for years. I think their chief is a salesman for them. Check out their web site.
    Steve Dragon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quazar
    [FONT=Arial]Looking for factual data on the metz aerials taht are being offered for sale in the US.

    Here are some of the questions that I currently have - may come up with more:

    1: What is teh load capacity of teh areials - both dry ane when flowing water.
    2: Are the aerial devices complaint to NFPA 1904
    3: With only a 2 1/2" pipe to the fly mounted standpipe - what is the rated gallonage of the aerial standpipe (500 Gallons)
    4: Does anybody have any experience with these aerials? Good / Bad - neutral

    Thanks
    Let me first say that I have not worked off the Metz but have had the oppurtunity to play with a few. There are a few things I personally have issues with. First, the width of the aerail is quite narrow and then they add the pre-piped water way to the inside of the device, making it much more difficult to climb in full PPE, nevermind make a rescue of a live victim who's scared sh*tless. The only other issue is the lack of a continuous path to the ground. How can you make multiple rescues and not get the victims of the aerail without moving it?
    Does the Metz have applications here in the US? Of course, if I was in a rural setting with lots of small roads and long dirt driveways I'd jump on one immediately. A 100' aerail on a single axle as short as a pumper! If you can stand any larger truck then I personnaly would look elsewhere for one with better rescue capabilities.

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    The advantage of the Metz in a rescue situation is the rate of speed with which it can go from from the ground to the window. It could be up and down numerous times before folks could have climbed down the stick on their own...

    I agree - it ISN'T your typical American aerial device, but for those departments that are able to adjust to operations with the rig, it does present some unique advantages. With those advantages come things you can't do that some American style rigs can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    The advantage of the Metz in a rescue situation is the rate of speed with which it can go from from the ground to the window. It could be up and down numerous times before folks could have climbed down the stick on their own...
    I assume this would be with shopping cart attached as it would be quite dangerous to rotate and retract with civilian on the stick. Of course then you can only fit one civilian and one FF in the cart for the ride down. Like I said, would be great where nothing else could get in ,but if another would fit most of my district (which they will) then I'd look for more rescue capability.

    I appreciate that it is an incredible machine with some excellant engineering. Next revision get the waterway out of the climbing path, wider stick, higher rails, and some sort of ladder to the ground or extended turntable to climb down from. Then you'd have a hell of a stick!!!
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-18-2006 at 10:00 PM. Reason: typos

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    RFD,As someone who has an active interest in the Metz aerial,I can assure you that you CAN take more than one civilian in the bucket(assuming you are running it with one operator) and there are several variations of the waterway.As far as dismounting the ladder,which CAN be used for mass egress as an aerial with the bucket attached,it can be done with reasonable effectiveness once you know how to do it.There ARE some changes coming in 07 in both the ladder and the bucket from what I'm told. Stephan and Tony have been very kind to me over the years in keeping me abreast of upcoming changes and in allowing me to "fly"this wonderful tool at shows and events.It's a tool that takes some getting used to if you're used to American offerings.But one I think you'll see more of them in the future.Carrabasset Vally has one that is well thought out and well built for their specfic needs.Newry recently took delivery as well.So they're here to stay and in a neighborhood near you.Not for everyone but they definately fill a niche. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    As far as dismounting the ladder,which CAN be used for mass egress as an aerial with the bucket attached,it can be done with reasonable effectiveness once you know how to do it.
    Knowing what I do about the truck (having been around our neighbor's countless times), I'm curious just how you could possibly get anyone from the ladder to the ground with any hint of efficiency, much less speed or safety. It's hard enough for a firefighter to get off the butt end of it when it's deployed off to the side, nevermind civilians who are panicking. I mean, looking at the photo below, the only way I see it happening are either you put a ground ladder up at the end of it or you design and deploy some sort of airplane-like emergency slide shoot. Neither solution obviously very practical or effective.

    PS - You'd be lucky to fit two skinny civilians in that bucket along with a firefighter.

    Last edited by Chauffer6; 09-19-2006 at 09:48 AM.

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    Chauffer,In conversation with Tony and Stephan on this very subject(as it was one of OUR primary concerns)the answer to your query is this.Standard ladder egress to the point on the ladder where it says Hill Hooks,then step out on to the platform(just above the lettering)then to the truck body then to the ground.I tried it,it's not bad.With a civilian? I'm not sure how well that would work but it doesn't work particularly well with a "standard" stick either.That's the "factory"explanation and I'm sticking to it.And NO,I'm not obsessed with that "free air"ride at the bottom of the stick.We asked if they could build a little "ring" at the bottom of the ladder so you would have a walkway regardless of ladder position.The response was "Why".In dealing with civilians with this particular device it is probably more efficient to use the bucket and "fly" them down.That group from the "Hill"is quite a crew.They're a lot of fun to work with and a great group of guys. T.C.

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    Default Still No Answers to questions

    When I first posted this topic , I asked three very specific questions. So far all I've seen are "opinions" both from those who like the truck and from those who don't. As we all know - eveybody has an opinion - I just want the Facts - please. So - for those current users and those who like their trucks , please look in your owners manuals and answer my questions - they are :

    1. Is apparatus 100% NFPA 1904 compliant ?
    2. What is the tip load, both dry and flowing water ?
    3. What is the flow through the standpipe with the 2 1/2" piping?

    Thanks !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Chauffer,In conversation with Tony and Stephan on this very subject(as it was one of OUR primary concerns)the answer to your query is this.Standard ladder egress to the point on the ladder where it says Hill Hooks,then step out on to the platform(just above the lettering)then to the truck body then to the ground.I tried it,it's not bad.With a civilian? I'm not sure how well that would work but it doesn't work particularly well with a "standard" stick either.That's the "factory"explanation and I'm sticking to it.And NO,I'm not obsessed with that "free air"ride at the bottom of the stick.We asked if they could build a little "ring" at the bottom of the ladder so you would have a walkway regardless of ladder position.The response was "Why".In dealing with civilians with this particular device it is probably more efficient to use the bucket and "fly" them down.That group from the "Hill"is quite a crew.They're a lot of fun to work with and a great group of guys. T.C.
    Yeah, that's the only way I see being able to get off the ladder too, but if it's at too steep an angle it would still be difficult to climb over the side of the ladder, not to mention find a clear path down off the truck. Maybe they SHOULD design some sort of inflatable escape shoot that stores and deploys from the back of the ladder, right where the Metz logo is.

    And yeah, the guys from the Hooks are quite the bunch, I've had the pleasure of knowing and working with many of them for a lot of years and countless fires. Our two depts are joined at the hip more or less.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 09-19-2006 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quazar
    When I first posted this topic , I asked three very specific questions. So far all I've seen are "opinions" both from those who like the truck and from those who don't. As we all know - eveybody has an opinion - I just want the Facts - please. So - for those current users and those who like their trucks , please look in your owners manuals and answer my questions - they are :

    1. Is apparatus 100% NFPA 1904 compliant ?
    2. What is the tip load, both dry and flowing water ?
    3. What is the flow through the standpipe with the 2 1/2" piping?

    Thanks !
    A little testy, are we? First of all, your three questions can and should be answered by either your local Metz dealer or the company themselves. Any claims they make as to the NFPA certification, tip load or flow has to be substantiated by independent testing and certification, so they're not exactly going to lie to you. Secondly, I gave you the website address of a company that has owned and operated one for 4 solid years. Would you like me to call them FOR you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quazar
    [FONT=Arial]
    4: Does anybody have any experience with these aerials? Good / Bad - neutral

    Looks like you asked for opinions to me. And it looks like they are being given also. And the points being brought up are good ones, something that should be considered. Now, back to the show

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    I got to "fly" one a few months ago. It looks like I am going to have another chance in the near future. I remember that the rear "landing" or lack of one was an issue with a few people here.

    It is an awesome truck. *edit* I should say that the ladder is awesome. I found it very user friendly, the set up time is a blink of the eye. The bucket space is lacking but it is not that bad. I hear they are adding 6". This thing is fast. It moves at incredible speeds. As neat as the truck is, it falls out of the "American" fire standards as a truck co. You simply can not fit the equipment needed on this rig. As was said before, for a small village or rural area with really tight streets or roads it great! For the money though you can get a lot more. Compartment space in today's' day and age is almost one of the biggest commodities. This truck just lacks it. You are basically going to get what you see, an aerial device. My question is: How many times to do really use the aerial in the 1st place? If you are going to buy it for what it is you are going to get one of the best operating aerial device around. If you need to store lots of equipment it's not for you.

    This is one of the neatest operating aerials I have ever seen. I would like to see the technology put in to a truck that could perform a more versatile role all around then just a small wagon with a Ferrari ladder on top. I would not mind having one, but I rather see a larger truck that could perform other roles.
    This space for rent

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    In most of europe, the 'Pumps' - what we call engines, carry pump, hose, water, long extension ladders, short extension ladders, forcible entry equipment, ventilation equipment, etc. Everything that we carry, but on the engines. The 'trucks' aren't generally only used as aerial devices. It works for them. They also use very standardized apparatus. A four pump fire would have 4 35'+ and 4 22' ladders, as well as any carried on the Turntable Ladder (i don't know if they do or not).

    I think it would work for us, at least better than total quint systems. Call it total multi-function engine with specialized ladder system.

    In one aspect, it allows you to move your existing staffing closer to the fire - that is it allows staffing to be spread more evenly among fire stations. In the US you might have 3-4 FF in one station, more than twice as many at a station housing a ladder truck. With a european style system, you'd have 4-5 FF per Engine, in every station, plus a couple extra to bring & operate the aerial.

    European style Pump (4-5 FF) + European style Ladder (2 FF) = A really well staffed 2 piece US Ladder Co.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    European style Pump (4-5 FF) + European style Ladder (2 FF) = A really well staffed 2 piece US Ladder Co.
    I think that's a very good way of looking at it.

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    Our's is below


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    Thumbs up metz aerials

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleWickman
    I got to "fly" one a few months ago. It looks like I am going to have another chance in the near future. I remember that the rear "landing" or lack of one was an issue with a few people here.

    It is an awesome truck. *edit* I should say that the ladder is awesome. I found it very user friendly, the set up time is a blink of the eye. The bucket space is lacking but it is not that bad. I hear they are adding 6". This thing is fast. It moves at incredible speeds. As neat as the truck is, it falls out of the "American" fire standards as a truck co. You simply can not fit the equipment needed on this rig. As was said before, for a small village or rural area with really tight streets or roads it great! For the money though you can get a lot more. Compartment space in today's' day and age is almost one of the biggest commodities. This truck just lacks it. You are basically going to get what you see, an aerial device. My question is: How many times to do really use the aerial in the 1st place? If you are going to buy it for what it is you are going to get one of the best operating aerial device around. If you need to store lots of equipment it's not for you.

    This is one of the neatest operating aerials I have ever seen. I would like to see the technology put in to a truck that could perform a more versatile role all around then just a small wagon with a Ferrari ladder on top. I would not mind having one, but I rather see a larger truck that could perform other roles.
    Kyle, the ride must have been too fast. A Metz Aerial will hold as much equipment as any other aerial that is only 34 feet long. Actually it will hold more. Don't confuse the number of doors with the amount of compartment space. Those high side doors are usually hiding an 8" to 10" compartment. the aerial ladder is the only vehicle in the fleet that must be really close to where it needs to work. The idea should not be to make these trucks bigger but smaller. We are the most dedicated people in the world (to a fault) we absolutely refuse to listen, ask the couple hundred thousand guys no longer building cars. We kept building those oversized, no handling, tail finned creatures even after the Europeans and Asians had yanked the rug out from under our feet. We must understand that we are years behind these guys, not because they are smarter than us but they have had more hands on experience. Remember that for about six years they were bombing the crap out of each other and then we jumped in and really kicked their butts. Can you imagine fighting major fires in major cities every night for six years, don't you think that maybe just once or twice they may have found a better way to do it. Most of their cities are several hundred years older than ours but are so well built that they survive still today and they must have apparatus to serve these sections of their cities also. If you take a look around you will notice the same thing happening here and we still have guys who will buy a 45' long aerial and then put 200 ' of ground ladders on it because they can't get anywhere with it. Most of the excess equipment most people want to carry would fit in a well organized van. One other point, the Metz is an aerial ladder not a platform. Here in North America we use footrests at the top of the ladder. The entire rest of the planet supplies a basket so please don't tell me how tight the basket is, can you imagine those guys working on the tip of an aerial! And for the Brother from Alloway Creek you can flow a thousand gallons a minute all day long with the Akron Stream Master with either 1 or 2 men in the basket using the electric controls or from the heated seat while enjoying a hot cup of coffee.

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    Oh,now you've let fisher cat out to play.That Ladder just isn't gonna work here.Neither is Angus hose or any of the rest of that across the pond stuff,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dano8696
    Our's is below

    what is the tank and pump size? that thing looks awesome.

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    Dano

    Can you tell me why you went with the tandem rear? Also what are you like or dislikes so far. Would you have none anything different?
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    Default I too...

    ...am curious as for the duals. For anyone that has a Metz--would the features of the aerial alone be good enough for your department if the wheelbase wasn't so short? I have seen much whining about how little storage options there are. There isn't I belive any reason why would you would have to use the minimum wheelbase. If you like the ladder, throw a few more feet on or another axle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skipatrol8
    what is the tank and pump size? that thing looks awesome.
    I don't see any intakes or discharges on it, so unless they have it all hidden in that huge compartment (which would be a waste of space), it looks like a dry truck to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by skipatrol8
    ...am curious as for the duals. For anyone that has a Metz--would the features of the aerial alone be good enough for your department if the wheelbase wasn't so short? I have seen much whining about how little storage options there are. There isn't I belive any reason why would you would have to use the minimum wheelbase. If you like the ladder, throw a few more feet on or another axle.
    Avon's truck doesn't look like it has much more storage space than Spring Valley's, and Spring Valley's is a single axle WITH a pump/tank. As a matter of fact, now that I really compare them, Avon's truck LOSSES compartment space because of the tandem axle! There are a ton of reasons I can see for spec'ing the truck with the single axle and minimum wheelbase, especially if you're not going to really gain any additional compartment space. Avon's truck looks overkill with a tandem axle, especially if it has no pump/tank on it.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 10-17-2006 at 06:30 PM.

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