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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Default This Is A Delicate Subject

    And its not one that I would really be willing to tackle under any circumstance. However it does bring a question about what a station of devout Muslim followers do during prayer time when the tones drop - we all know fire and other emergencies don't wait for anyone/anything. Of course the other problem is about the taping of the conversation. In Canada anyway it is illigal to voice record a conversation without all parties concerned being aware of the recording, this goes for sitting in lecture halls and conferences too.

    Firefighter Accuses Supervisors Of Discrimination
    Firefighters Secretly Tapes Meeting

    POSTED: 6:51 am EDT September 21, 2006
    UPDATED: 6:53 am EDT September 21, 2006

    WASHINGTON -- A veteran D.C. firefighter told News4 that he was told to choose between his job and his religion and he said he has the proof on tape.

    D.C. firefighter Tarick Ali is a devout Muslim who works out of Brentwood firehouse on Rhode Island Avenue in Northeast. He said in June, after praying while on duty, a supervisor complained about his response time. Ali filed a complaint and when it was heard by the department, Ali said he secretly recorded the meeting. and the statement was repeated four times.

    "I said you need to make the choice," a voice on the tape said. "What's more important to you, your religion or the job, the fire department?"

    "And I was shocked, I mean I didn't know where it came from or why it came or how it came out," Ali told News4 reporter Miguel Almaguer. "If you have a lieutenant that feels that you can say this and it's justified for him to say this, then it has a lot to do with management itself."

    The fire department said it's surprised Ali went to the media because in July he signed paperwork stating that the issue had been resolved. Still, an investigation could be launched.

    "If this is a situation that deserves further investigation, certainly we'll take a look at this new information and we'll proceed if it's necessary," said department spokesman Alan Etter.

    The fire department said if those tapes are authenticated, those statements are completely inexcusable. Meanwhile Ali said he will file a formal complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

    Copyright 2006 by nbc4.com. All rights reserved.
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  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Default

    Interesting question...although wasn't it also in D.C. where the Muslim firefighters got a variance that allowed them to wear full beards, even with SCBA? I would think that if such an obvious compromise of safety standards was accepted (or maybe it was overruled, I don't recall) then they'll probably get this one too.
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
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    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  3. #3
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    Default Somehow...

    This is one of those subjects that you can't say is black or white. Although if the FF did sign a document saying the whole thing was settled, and he knew he had this recording and was going to use it, it does show some bad faith (no pun intended) on his part.

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    My personal take on this is, I don't care what religion you are, they all put helping others at a pretty high point in their teachings. If it means interupting prayers to do so I don't think that whomever you're praying to will mind. The Amish go so far as to allow their people to use things they normally wouldn't allowthem to use. So I think there is more to this than is being told (go figure).

    Larry

    (edited for spelling)

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Default

    And thats the bad taste I have too, regarding the recording. Potentially it shows a lack of trust between both parties, and that suggests some other underlying issues that have not been presented - I think, of course that is just personal opinion based on the current article.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  6. #6
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    Default

    First, I'm not a Muslim. So, the information I have comes only from some long discussions with our military counterparts in the Afghan Army and the interpreters that were assigned to my team back when I was still in the Army and deployed to Afghanistan. But, I asked this very same question during Ramadon and the following Eid ceremony since our patrols and the violence really wasn't allowing them to fullfill all of their obligations. They told me that there were provisions for national defense or other such emergencies where work in the defense of others was an acceptable reason to postpone prayers or break the fast. When possible, of course they complied with the requirements of their faith. However, when that was not possible due to immediate safety or national defense concerns, they assured me that that was all right.
    Like I said, I don't have any real knowledge of their literature to back this up. But, I would assume that if that were true in a military capacity defending your country, it would probably be true in an emergency response capacity as well. Just my thoughts

  7. #7
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    As usual with the media, we don't have the full story. How much was the response time delayed? Was he simply rolling up his prayer mat and delayed 30 seconds, or was he delayed several minutes. I can see being delayed longer if you're on the toilet. Is that now an issue?

    In general, there appears to be bad faith going both directions, and if the truth was known, there are probably other issues involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmleblanc
    Interesting question...although wasn't it also in D.C. where the Muslim firefighters got a variance that allowed them to wear full beards, even with SCBA? I would think that if such an obvious compromise of safety standards was accepted (or maybe it was overruled, I don't recall) then they'll probably get this one too.

    That is complete BS. I dont care what you believe or where you're from. There are rules, regulations and laws in this country that everyone is expected to follow. There shouldnt be exceptions made for anyone. If someone doesnt want to follow them or are offended by them, too bad. Find another place to work/live.

    When in Rome, do like the Romans do.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firestanggt
    That is complete BS. I dont care what you believe or where you're from. There are rules, regulations and laws in this country that everyone is expected to follow. There shouldnt be exceptions made for anyone. If someone doesnt want to follow them or are offended by them, too bad. Find another place to work/live.

    When in Rome, do like the Romans do.
    So according to you then, what happens when as Eng34FF commented, you're "caught with your pants around your ankles" when the tones drop, and the "paperwork is not quite finished"? Where do you stand on that question? Do you just grab your pants, do the run and then deal with the "other problem" later?
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7
    So according to you then, what happens when as Eng34FF commented, you're "caught with your pants around your ankles" when the tones drop, and the "paperwork is not quite finished"? Where do you stand on that question? Do you just grab your pants, do the run and then deal with the "other problem" later?

    that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.
    But to answer your question, it would obvoiusly depend on the nature of the call.

    if its a call for a structure fire with possible entrapment, then the wipe can wait.
    If its a call for a 48 yr old woman who has been feeling ill for a few days and would like transport to the hospital, then she can wait.

  11. #11
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Regarding the recording...if you feel you're genuinely getting screwed over or discriminated against by your boss and you aren't getting anywhere with his superiors, then I can more or less understand taping the meeting to prove your case. What I do take issue with is playing the tape for anyone other than his superiors. You had better be getting screwed over by everyone from your Lt to the Mayor before you go public with the tapes. Clearly I don't know jack about this case, but if that's true that this guy previously said it was resolved, then why the need to run to the press after so many months? That doesn't sit well with me.

    Regarding the religion issue...very touchy subject. I will say this though, having worked side by side with ultra religious Orthodox and Hasidic Jews for many years, I know for a fact they put NOTHING in front of saving lives. They respond on the Shabbos, they interrupt prayers and high holy holidays and they do it believing they are serving God by doing so. It would very much surprise me if any other religion forbade the same.

    Again though, this guy may've just been taking a measly 15 seconds to roll up his prayer rug and someone is busting his balls about it. Wouldn't be unheard of in today's day and age for someone to have a hardon for Muslims in this country.

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    Default

    Theres probably more to the story then what is being disclosed. Make a choice. Pray and don't go to the call(and face the consequences) or Stop your current praying and get on the dam firetruck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firestanggt
    that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.
    But to answer your question, it would obvoiusly depend on the nature of the call.

    if its a call for a structure fire with possible entrapment, then the wipe can wait.
    If its a call for a 48 yr old woman who has been feeling ill for a few days and would like transport to the hospital, then she can wait.
    So if the ill lady is in cardiac arrest when you arrive it would not bother you?

    How often are the natures of the call 100% accurate?

    How often are those "structure fires" called in really structure fires?
    Last edited by lexfd5; 09-21-2006 at 11:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5
    So if the ill lady is in cardiac arrest when you arrive it would not bother you?

    How often are the natures of the call 100% accurate?

    How often are those "structure fires" called in really structure fires?

    So you respond the same way to a reported structure fire as you do to a 10-55 w/o PI?

    Every call is different and you have to play it accordingly. I'm not going to go balls to the wall for a minor 10-55.

    As for accuracy of calls. They are definately not 100% but usually close. Theyre enough to get a general idea of the urgentcy of the call.

  15. #15
    Forum Member BFDNJFF's Avatar
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    It seems there is more to the story then we are hearing. Like stated is this maybe a anti-Muslim situation going on in this station ? Did this guy realy delay this truck for prayer or was it like 10 seconds coming from a back private room where prays.
    I work where there are a lot of Muslims and tonight when I go in I will ask
    some of them a few questions in the lines of prayer and what should be done in these circumstances.
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  16. #16
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Tones hit - get on the apparatus.

    Miss a call - Charges will be brought forth


    Don't think it will hold up -- Try missing a call!


    It is the job of a firefighter to respond to all calls upon which the member is assigned to a company and that company is called to respond to.


    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    Talking dunno

    I dunno, but would this be like if Bill Clinton decided to hold up a world decision making process until Monica got through servicing him and then saved the dress with the "gravy stains" to take to court? Wasn't it the senior Bush who said we are living in a kinder and gentler world? Please don't offend me because i will take pictures and record everything and sue you. Good grief; if there are rules of the job clearly spelled out, and there should be, then deal with it and get over it. And the killing goes on in the world arena. PC drives me nuts. Okay, I'm over it now.

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    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    So you respond the same way to a reported structure fire as you do to a 10-55 w/o PI?
    Each call is treated the same. If it warrants L&S then respond in a responsible manner. For those goofballs that think you should drive balls to the wall and not use due regard because of the seriousness of the call... then you are in the wrong line of work.

    We as firefighters have an obligation to protect our citizens as well as those on the truck by driving with responsibility.

    Every call gets the same response.

    Tones hit... hit the truck and go. Do not wait. If you miss a call... god forbid.

    I do not agree with the court ruling in DC about the beards. But it has to be dealt with.

    The Muslim issue is interesting. I would think that it would not be a problem for a person (Muslim) on the job that did not want to make it a problem.
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  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    The Muslim issue is interesting. I would think that it would not be a problem for a person (Muslim) on the job that did not want to make it a problem.


    And that, Ladies and Gentlemen is the key to the problem in general - or at least thats how I see it. I am pretty open when it comes to religious observation and practices, but this and other "issues" are only problems if one or both parties choose to make it a problem. As has been noted, there would appear to be hidden activities that are not known to the media or have not been openly reported. I am very interested to hear what else is going on, if only to get a cleaner, clearer picture of the whole event.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    In Canada anyway it is illigal to voice record a conversation without all parties concerned being aware of the recording, this goes for sitting in lecture halls and conferences too.
    Malahat, in the US it varies from state to state. In some states, both parties must be aware that a conversation is being recorded but others only require that one party know about the recording.

    In Alabama, one participant can legally record a converation without the other participant's knowledge. Comes in handy when you know that other person's gonna lie to you....

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