1. #1
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    Default K-500 Air Force Refueler

    We use a K-500 refueler for a 5 k tanker.

    Today while responding to a call, the driver had
    smoke coming from the battery box. Upon stopping,
    they found the wires to the light bar melted, and
    I suspect the light bar is bad. 30 amp fuse did not
    blow.

    More importantly, after removing those wires, and
    charging those batteries, when we try to start the unit
    we get nothing. No relay click, no lights of any kind,
    nothing.

    Jumping the start solenoid gets good cranking.

    The 50 amp breakers on the lower left of the dash
    appear good.

    Any ideas? The jump start port on the right wheel well
    has 12 vdc.

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    I hope your department factored in the difference in weight between a full load of jet fuel and a load of water. There is a good possiblility the rig exceeds the permissible GVW. Read the FEMA tanker safety report.

    Safe Operation of Tankers

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    It does exceed GVWR. Not that it matters if I cannot get it down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301
    It does exceed GVWR. Not that it matters if I cannot get it down the road.
    If it does exceed the GVWR then wtf are you guys using it for in the first place, nevermind the fact that it has electrical issues right now!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    What the $(*# does this have to do with the problem of the truck not starting!!!!

    Just help the poor man with his problem and debate the merits of converted fuel trucks in another thread. (No I don't think it's a good idea either but I am a realist.)

    Anyway what you need to do is trace the electrical flow from the battery to the power switch. My guess is that the fire melted/destroyed something that goes to a main power distribution box where the ignition switch gets its power.

    Birken

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    If jump the selonoid gets it to crank, then the problem is in the starting circuit. Find the fuse that supplies the ignition switch. If it isn't blown, the something else is wrong in that system.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff
    If it does exceed the GVWR then wtf are you guys using it for in the first place, nevermind the fact that it has electrical issues right now!

    Tell me something Slick... What part of the world are you in?

    Down here in the rural world, we protect around a 200 square mile area,
    around 4 times that autoaid for structures. Out of that 200 square miles,
    we have.... 0 hydrants. None. Nada. Zip. Not a lot of water to draft from either.

    Our closest hydrant is 17 miles from our main station. We do have an old
    tank at our station that holds 3,500 gallons of water.

    I have a budget to run the ENTIRE department, fuel, insurance, training, maintenance - of $6,500.00 a year.

    Yet, we just announced we dropped our ISO rating to an 8b. The first
    rural department in our region to do so. Not the western states 8, but
    the real 8b.

    Now, if you don't like me using that big tanker, when are you going to deliver the small tankers to me. I need at least two. Put your money where your big ol mouth is.

    We got this 5k tanker from conservation, through the federal excess
    property program. Strict rules on where it is used, how it is used. It
    does NOT run emergency traffic. Specific drivers. We are very cautious
    about its use. If it can get us water a mile or so away from the scene,
    we can shuttle. Many places it can get right up to the scene, or at least
    close enough to do a hose lay. We do a lot of driver training on that
    specific piece of equipment.

    Oh, I know. Go tax based. Get the big bucks. Then you can afford the smaller tankers. We recently decided that is our future. When it is passed, we will see a whopping 20k a year in revenue. Wow. Call Pierce!

    Let me know an estimated delivery on my new tankers. I need them quick,
    I still do not have this electrical figured out.

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    To the REAL brothers in the fire service who have tried to offer help with this - THANKS.

    I have tried to trace the wiring to the switch area, but it gets lost in the
    numerous wiring looms, but am continueing on that process. I can't find
    a fuse blown, but that does not mean there is one hidden somewhere.

    The other confusing thing is the cab lights do not go through the
    ignition switch, and they do not work either.

    THANKS again.

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    Do you have any maint/ wiring diagrams.

    I have a 5ton and foun a complete website with everything i need.

    Also try a site called http://www.mil-veh.org
    and join there mailing list.
    You can post a question and get a lot of good info.

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    Thanks. Greetings from southern MO btw.

    Headed to the list now

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301
    Tell me something Slick... What part of the world are you in?

    Down here in the rural world, we protect around a 200 square mile area,
    around 4 times that autoaid for structures. Out of that 200 square miles,
    we have.... 0 hydrants. None. Nada. Zip. Not a lot of water to draft from either.

    Our closest hydrant is 17 miles from our main station. We do have an old
    tank at our station that holds 3,500 gallons of water.

    I have a budget to run the ENTIRE department, fuel, insurance, training, maintenance - of $6,500.00 a year.

    Yet, we just announced we dropped our ISO rating to an 8b. The first
    rural department in our region to do so. Not the western states 8, but
    the real 8b.

    Now, if you don't like me using that big tanker, when are you going to deliver the small tankers to me. I need at least two. Put your money where your big ol mouth is.

    We got this 5k tanker from conservation, through the federal excess
    property program. Strict rules on where it is used, how it is used. It
    does NOT run emergency traffic. Specific drivers. We are very cautious
    about its use. If it can get us water a mile or so away from the scene,
    we can shuttle. Many places it can get right up to the scene, or at least
    close enough to do a hose lay. We do a lot of driver training on that
    specific piece of equipment.

    Oh, I know. Go tax based. Get the big bucks. Then you can afford the smaller tankers. We recently decided that is our future. When it is passed, we will see a whopping 20k a year in revenue. Wow. Call Pierce!

    Let me know an estimated delivery on my new tankers. I need them quick,
    I still do not have this electrical figured out.
    Tell all this to the attorneys when your tanker plows into a car at an intersection and kills someone, or rolls over and kills one of your members, and the widow sues for damages..........Just out of curiosity does your insurance provider know you are exceeding the GVWR? I bet they dont- because they probably wouldnt insure the vehicle! Or does your municipality provide your insurance? Do THEY know it exceeds the GVWR?

    To answer your question, we have hydrants. We are on the outskirts of a major metropolitan region. But you go 30 miles to the north, west, east of us.....Tankers are the way of life. Converted fuel tankers USED to be the way of life, up until the mid 80's when 2 major accidents (involving 2 different converted fuel tankers)with loss of life put the stops to fuel trucks. Lawsuits were filed (rightfully so!!) Insurance providers and municipalities wouldnt insure them anymore. Everyone that had them had to get rid of them!!

    Didnt mean to get your panties in a bind.....But in todays lawsuit-happy litigious world, you have to think outside the box- You came on here and knowingly admitted you were utilizing a vehicle with a specific GVWR for purposes that it was not built for, purposes that now exceed the GVWR. Have you considered, for one minute, the MASSIVE liability that you have opened yourself up to? Not only have you opened YOURSELF to liability, you have opened it for:
    -Your Department
    -Any of your drivers who operate the vehicle (and if I were one of your drivers, I would refuse to operate it just for this reason!)
    -Any of your members who act as the company OIC anytime it leaves the station
    -(possibly) the municipality that you protect
    There are probably more, but you get the idea! Now, I apologize for coming on here and skewering you like this, but I just couldnt believe you openly admitted in a public forum that you know it is overweight.

    Rant off. Good luck with your electrical problems. Look at the bright side- it could very well be the least of your problems. Be safe!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    If you have any other info or name for this truck, I would be happy to try and find some info for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff
    members, and the widow sues for damages..........Just out of curiosity does your insurance provider know you are exceeding the GVWR? I bet they dont- because they probably wouldnt insure the vehicle! !

    They know. They know the truck, have seen it, etc.
    [/QUOTE]
    but I just couldnt believe you openly admitted in a public forum that you know it is overweight. ![/QUOTE]

    It's called being truthful. If I am called to court today to testify, I would
    tell them I knew that it was overweight. They would not need to look
    on firehouse.com to see if I had known it. I am not going to lie about
    it, espically in a court.

    Integrity. What a concept.

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    This is just another post that clearly exemplifies the difference between the haves and the have nots in the US fire service. It is all well and good to tell a guy on here not to do something when you have enough funding to buy all proper NFPA approved equipment. But until you walk a mile in a POOR RURAL FD's shoes do not for one second believe that his situation is yours.

    LVFD301 came here asking a simple question about an electrical problem on his tanker. He didn't ask to be preached to, he asked for help.

    Of course it would be great if they could afford a $300K custom built pumper tanker that met every NFPA standard. But they can't and instead of doing nothing they are trying to do the best they can.

    My one suggestion would be this for LVFD301 when it comes to the weight issue. Put some ballast in the tank to drop the tank cappacity down to the maximum allowable GVW. A former FD I was on had to do this with a tanker to meet DOT.

    As for those military tankers they are no speed demons they are designed for on base flightline refueling, not highway speed driving.

    FyredUp

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    Default 5,000 gal. refueler

    Out of curiosity, is this the type of truck you are reffering too?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat
    Out of curiosity, is this the type of truck you are reffering too?

    That would be the one. Ours is a little newer I think, a 1984. (The newest
    vehicle in our fleet in fact)

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    That guy is on a mission to preach to rural FD on how screwed up using homemade/converted/large/etc tankers. Reality does not intrude on his world. See several other tanker/apparatus posts.

    Those Dodge refuelers were a civilian spec truck. As I recall the one I looked at some time back had a LARGE metal black enameled plate with wiring diagram on the inside of one of a compartment doors. In any case the chassis wire "should" be essentially the same as any other civilian DODGE of the era. I'm "pretty" sure the Mack B series had the contract for the R9 5000gal refueler by around 1982/I think you will find the last Dodges were around 1978.

    See
    http://dodge-semis.com/PG/78_XCNT800/

    Any damage noted to the batteries (posts or cables)? I've had similar problems with cause being poor contact posts to clamps (melt battery posts).
    Last edited by neiowa; 09-26-2006 at 04:25 PM.

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    Default memory loss

    I was in the AF and worked on refuelers. The R-2, R-5 and R-9. The last refuelers I worked on were in Germany and were R-9 built by Kovatch, which is KME. I wish my memory were good enough to remember the cab and power plants. The last ones I can remember were Cummins engines and I think 554 cid. If it is military and has been worked on by GI's then you may find that anything and everything could have been bypassed on the wiring side to make it work by finding other than what is supposed to be marked for a particualr circuit. Let us know what you find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    I'm "pretty" sure the Mack B series had the contract for the R9 5000gal refueler by around 1982/I think you will find the last Dodges were around 1978.

    See
    http://dodge-semis.com/PG/78_XCNT800/

    Any damage noted to the batteries (posts or cables)? I've had similar problems with cause being poor contact posts to clamps (melt battery posts).
    I have the Mack. I cannot find any damage to the posts or
    cables, and it does turn over when you jump the relay.

    Right now it is a matter of time - having a spare 30 minutes to go
    crawling under the truck and chasing wires.


    Insofar as FWDBUFF, I am sure he is working hard right now to get me a couple of more tankers that are more suitable for his taste. Can't wait for
    him to deliver!

    Thanks!

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    We found it. A melted ground wire that runs from the frame to the
    starter.

    Twisted it together, it starts and runs. We are as we speak replacing
    it.

    Thanks all for the advice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301
    Insofar as FWDBUFF, I am sure he is working hard right now to get me a couple of more tankers that are more suitable for his taste. Can't wait for him to deliver! Thanks!
    Well, I was going to leave it alone......But since you threw that one out, I'll say this..........I never questioned your integrity or honesty. I just cant believe you actually use a vehicle that you knowingly break the law in! I commend you for your honesty/integrity. So will the Plaintiff's attorneys- it will make their case against you, your department, your municipality, the driver/operator at the time, and your insurance company MUCH easier; should you ever become the subject of a lawsuit stemming from an MVA with your tanker.

    And for neiowa- Reality does not intrude on my world? How about two major MVA's in Eastern Pa. in the early to mid 1980's, involving converted fuel tankers; one involving the death of a motorist, and one involving serious injury of a FD Member who rolled the rig he was driving? BOTH COMPANIES WERE SUED, AND MILLIONS WERE PAID OUT!!! HOW ABOUT THAT REALITY????? How about the reality that the insurance companies told all FD's in Eastern Pa. that they would no longer insure converted tankers? How about the reality that several departments were left out in the cold, with no insurace for their tankers, virtually overnight? HOW ABOUT THAT REALITY????? Sounds to me like YOU are the one who needs a reality check!

    Oh, and for your information, I am not the starter of those other posts. (I am familiar with them, but not the starter!)

    Now, as for your money woes....I can certainly appreciate them.....My own organization has problems of its own. But we certainly dont condone the use of a vehicle which could knowingly endanger the lives of our own members or innocent civilians!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Ya know, its funny. For all that in pa, yet a major insuror of converted fuel tankers into fire service water tankers is right there in PA.

    Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

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    Default Money Woes

    Bingo! My small home town volunteer fire department discovered Bingo.

    Every Saturday night. There wasn't much of anything else to do in a small rural town.

    With in 6 years they had a new four bay station and a truck or vehicle in each bay! Rags to riches story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat
    Bingo! My small home town volunteer fire department discovered Bingo.

    Every Saturday night. There wasn't much of anything else to do in a small rural town.

    With in 6 years they had a new four bay station and a truck or vehicle in each bay! Rags to riches story.

    Grin... and in my state we would discover Prison!

    I sure wish we could do that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat
    Out of curiosity, is this the type of truck you are reffering too?
    That truck looks familiar. You wouldn't happen to be in Texas would you????
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

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