1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtTim556
    My first question is, what is the NP supposed to be on your nozzle? My second is, are you trying to get 125gpm from the nozzle? For the 400ft line I figure you have 200lbs FL flowing 125gpm's. So you have 20lbs NP? With the added 200ft, 4 sections of 50ft 1 1/2, that would be 600ft. flowing 125gpm and FL at 300lbs.
    That's not what my chart shows...my trust Waterous pocket chart shows 35 psi/100' loss for 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. So, a 400' load would have 140 psi FL in the line, and if they're running 75 psi fixed gallonage nozzles (we have a couple of these on our hi-rise packs and trash lines), they'd need a baseline discharge pressure of 215 psi. That would work. Another 200' extension would add 70 psi in FL in the line, and bring the required discharge pressure to 285 psi (rounded off). So, SBrooks' scenario is well within the realm of the feasible, and if DCFD wants to run really long loads like this, I have to believe they'd have thought of using low pressure fog nozzles, as I've suggested here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsnyder
    That's not what my chart shows...my trust Waterous pocket chart shows 35 psi/100' loss for 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. So, a 400' load would have 140 psi FL in the line, and if they're running 75 psi fixed gallonage nozzles (we have a couple of these on our hi-rise packs and trash lines), they'd need a baseline discharge pressure of 215 psi. That would work. Another 200' extension would add 70 psi in FL in the line, and bring the required discharge pressure to 285 psi (rounded off). So, SBrooks' scenario is well within the realm of the feasible, and if DCFD wants to run really long loads like this, I have to believe they'd have thought of using low pressure fog nozzles, as I've suggested here.
    Checked in another pocket guide I have and it says 38psi FL per 100ft at 125gpm's. Much closer to the 35 you state from Waterous. Now I wonder why the big difference in the two guides. I know it may not be an exact science but damn that much difference. I am not familiar with the the nozzle he was talking about so was not sure about the pressure needed at the nozzle. Anyway both ways cleared a lot up for me. I think I need a new pocket guide now. I wasn't disagreeing or anything just trying to figure that out with what I had. One of the great things about these forums is you can pick the brain of other firefighters and get the answer to your questions. I have been in this business for 26 years and am still learning and relearning. Thanks brothers for the help.

  3. #28
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    Physics, like Math and all the other subjects you learned in the real world, is apparently different in the District of Columbia. Our Pump Manual states 30 psi / 100' of 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. It therefore must be true.

    Nozzles are Akron Assault 125 gpm / 100 psi break apart nozzles.

    350' 1 1/2" = 205 psi EP
    400' 1 1/2" = 220 psi EP
    500' 1 1/2" = 250 psi EP
    600' 1 1/2" = 280 psi EP
    plus a handful for elevation

    pumps are 1250 gpm 2 stage Waterous.

    When we tried 1 3/4" back in 2000, we used 150 gpm / 75 psi break aparts with a 15/16" slug. I believe we still have the 15/16" cutoffs, but back to the 125/100 nozzles.

    I don't know what the flow / pressure is actually, but I do know that you get a workable stream out of the butt, it's not particularly powerful, but it will reach across a room.

    IF (<--notice its a big if) 30 psi / 100' @ 125 gpm is accurate, we get roughly 170 gpm/45 psi on our 200's, and 155 gpm / 35 psi on our 400's when we take the fog tip off.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Physics, like Math and all the other subjects you learned in the real world, is apparently different in the District of Columbia. Our Pump Manual states 30 psi / 100' of 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. It therefore must be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by LtTim556
    Checked in another pocket guide I have and it says 38psi FL per 100ft at 125gpm's. Much closer to the 35 you state from Waterous. Now I wonder why the big difference in the two guides. I know it may not be an exact science but damn that much difference.
    Almost any two you pick up will be different...friction loss in hose will be affected by a variety of factors, including the exact composition and construction of the inner lining, temperature, coupling size and type, etc. So, any given pair of charts can be different for a variety of reasons. I've got Waterous pocket charts and a Hale slide rule, both of which I use from time to time, and they don't exactly match. What I like about using pump manufacturers' charts is that they usualy try to midline the loss estimates so that they are close for a variety of types of hose.

    You also have to be careful in using the charts that come with new hose. First off, they are specific to that manufacturer's hose, which may not have exactly the same characteristics as another manufacturer's hose. Also, they often refer to the loss in the hose itself only, irrespective of things like couplings. It can make a difference...for example, the friction loss coefficient for 2" hose is about 6.5, and that's fine if you have it coupled 2" (as we do). Couple that same 2" hose with 1 1/2" (as most companies do), and it takes your friction loss coefficient up to about 8.0. Not huge, but it will make a difference on a quick reference chart.

    Similarly, you generally get slightly lower friction loss coefficients from thermoplastic lined hose than rubber-lined hose, and rubber-lined hose made in recent years often has lower coefficients than older rubber-lined hose.

    Anyway, most of these charts will be close to each other, but all of the calculations used to make them are theoretical. You won't really know what your particular setup gives you unless you flow test it yourself (which is something else I bet DCFD has done at some point).
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 10-19-2006 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecfr1978
    Your crosslay lengths should depend on how close you can get to the houses and how big the houses are. Intsead of making your cross lays longer during the winter months, why not use a 300-400' 3" line with a water thief (1-2 1/2"outlet & 2-1 1/2" outlets). Then make some short sections of 1 3/4" (5-6' long "pigtails") hose to get the couplings out of the hose bed, it makes it easier to uncouple the hose, then attach the preconnects to the water thief. This is the setup we use for some of our apartment complexes, it may be take a little longer, but with practice it goes smoothly.
    I dont really like the water thief or gated wye idea, only because now if you get a burst length of 3", or whatever size the hose is, before the wye, you just put the line on the fire floor and the line on the floor above OOS. Id rather see different lines coming off the rig. But if it works for you, stick with what you know....
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    The main reason we use the water thief is to help reduce the friction loss and engine pressure. Plus if you go through a narrow breeze way or other small opening you only have to worry about one line instead of two or more.

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    All of our trucks have
    (2) 200' 1 3/4
    (1) 200' 2 1/2 crosslays
    600' 2 1/2 in the hosebed
    and our main out engine at St 1 has a 1" booster

  8. #33
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    Being from a part of the world that gets cold, we have trucks with a top mount pump control in an enclosed heated cab, on a commercial chassis. There is a provision within the cab to seat three firefighters. Under the seat is where the speedlays (crosslays) are, although there is a provision for crosslays above the side pump panels (if specified on truck order).

    We use a traditional flat lay for the first layer, and then extend the lay to form two loops (for each speedlay) on each side of the truck. Then we continue with the traditional flat lay, and finally keep the nozzle somewhere in the middle of the hose load.

    This allows the firefighters to grab a loop from either side of the truck, and pull the entire load off on one or both speedlays. We find that this type of loading allows us to have twin 200ft (1 ) attack lines on either side of the truck, or pull one line off each side as required.

    Stay Safe

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    Default Hose questions and what we run

    Our new engines carry.

    2- 200' 1 3/4 with 175 gpm fogs at 120 psi- speedlay
    1- 200' 2 1/2 with 1 3/8 tip (390gpm @ 90psi) - speedlay-
    1- 400' 2 1/2 leader with a 1 1/4" leader tip- rear bed
    1- 600' 3" to 100' skid of 1 3/4"- rear bed
    1000' 5"

    1- 100' 1 3/4" standpipe pack
    1- 100' trashline front bumper

    The speedlays were on a flowmeter to check the numbers

    Also, do any of you run PONN supreme or conquest. I have an opportunity to change over from ANGUS Ultima and Ultima Lite. If you do run the PONN please give the pros and cons.

  10. #35
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    My VFD Department has:
    1 Trashline in the front bumper of 100ft of 1 3/4"
    2 Crosslays each cross lay is 200ft of 1 3/4"
    and
    1 Rear preconnect 200ft of 2 1-2"
    All nozzles are Automatic Fog nozzles.

  11. #36
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    200' of 1 3/4" hose with an 8' section of 1 3/4 connected to the truck for easy disconnecting from the crosslay.

    150' of 2 1/2" hose

  12. #37
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    Our engine 3 top mount 1000gpm Waterous/1000 gal, 40 gal. foam with 2 color coded 200' 1 3/4 cross-lays with Cafs smoothbore nozzles, on the back of cab ,
    1 250' 2 1/2 with a fog combo nozzle behind rear of pump station
    2 300' 2 1/2 pre-connects from rear hose-bed 1 CAFS ,1 combo nozzle
    1,250 4" ldh in hose-bed for lay in.
    all pre-connects have 1st length color coded to pump panel
    additional 250' of 1 3/4 rolled in compartment for those long lays around back of structures.

    engine 1 exact same hose load
    1000 gpm hale 1000 gal tank top mount with out CAFS

    Both on tilt cab commercial cab-overs for outstanding maneuverability. This works well for us as most structures are set back from drives and roadways

  13. #38
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    Our Engine has:

    (3) 200' 1 3/4" crosslays with Akron Saberjets
    (1) 100' 1 3/4" bumper line with Akron Turbojet
    (1) 300' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.
    (1) 200' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.

    The Engine also carries 700' of 1 3/4", 700' 0f 2 1/2" for additional lines / reach. All of the pre-connected lines have pump gauges, controls, nozzles and hose all color coded for ease of identification.

    We use the Ponn Supreme hose also, works pretty good. The one thing we noticed is that when it is new and gets wet it becomes slippery with a soap-like lather.

    The other two Engines are different and I don't recall their lines, nor the ones on the Quint.
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    Our two engines:

    Engine 11 ('89 Spartan/FMC, 1500gpm/1000 gallons)
    4- 1 3/4"x200' with TFT Thunderfogs preset at 125 gpm
    2- 2 1/2"x200', one with a fog one with stacked tips.
    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

    The way this truck's set up, we have three speedlays in front of the pump and two crosslays behind the panel (top mount, one crosslay is one of the 2 1/2") and the other 2 1/2" off the rear in the hosebed. All of the lays except the top speedlay, which is not covered, is triple-layer loaded. The top speedlay is flat loaded so we can use it in shorter sections if needed. Simply pull what we need and connect it to the open connection on the trashline's wye.

    Engine 12 ('07 KW/Rosenbauer, 1750gpm/2500 gallons)
    3- 1 3/4"x200' triple layer loads above pump
    2- 2 1/2"x200 triple layer loads in hosebed
    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

    Both truck also carry a 1 1/2"x150' "hotel pack" on them. What we use them for is long hoselays when needed. We'll pull off one of the 2 1/2" preconnects and wye it into the hotel pack. If we need a second line, we'll pull the pack off the other truck or use one of the preconnects and drag it to the wye.

    One of the biggest reasons we use 200' on the preconnects is for ISO. The other reason is we'd rather have too much hose than not enough. We've had too many fires when we ran 150' preconnects that we had to add a section to get where we needed. The extra 50' has made a major difference.

  15. #40
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    First out rigs (including the quint):

    1 100' 1 3/4 bumper line (fog)
    1 150' 1 3/4" crosslay (fog)
    1 200' 1 3/4" crosslay, water/foam (fog)
    1 150' 2 1/2" crosslay (solid-bore)
    1 200' 3" crosslay with gated wye (for courtyard lay).

    The reserve rigs dont have the bumper line, and the 2 1/2" and courtyard lay go off the rear.

    The rest of the load is 200' 3" reverse loaded for standpipes, 1000' 5" LDH for supply and a standpipe pack made up of 2 100' sections of 2".
    Last edited by Dave1983; 02-17-2007 at 05:48 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Default Crosslays

    Bumper line: 100' 1 1/2" for car, dumpster and trash fires (yellow hose)
    Preconnect 1 is a 150' 1 3/4" with a combination nozzle (red hose)
    Preconnect 2 is a 200' 2" with a vindicator nozzle (blue hose)
    Preconnect 3 is a 200' 2" with a combination nozzle (blue hose)
    Rear is a 250' 2 1/2" with stack tips (brown hose)

    Give your crews the tools to do the job, the training to properly operate them and then let them make the decision on what to pull.

    We are also forunate to be able to carry both a 5 and 6" supply hose for larger incidents.

  17. #42
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    Default How I heard the lenghts were developed.

    Just a comment on how the cross lay line was told to me. The cross lay concept was developed for your normal 2 1/2 story bedroom community. This concept applies to about 80% of America.
    The front of the fire building belongs to the Truck. We Enginemen concede the front since we get to actually put out the fire and their ladders are limited in length. Since the ladder has the front of the fire building the engine parks one house adjacent to the fire building in either direction.
    One 50'length of hose is used to go from the spot where the engine is parked, down the street to in front of the dwelling. The second 50' length of hose goes from the street to the front of the dwelling. The third and fourth lengths are the interior operational lengths, one hundred feet of hose is usually enough to cover all areas of a standard dwelling.
    As the line is stretched the distances are usually shorter than the preset lengths. That extra approx. 20 to 30 feet of extra hose, when properly stretched gives you additional interior operations length.
    The cross lay design works 80% of the time in normal America. If the fire conditions or building design requires more hose then what the cross lay can give the stretch should come off the back. Allot of engine utilize the reverse lay. The reverse lay is 150' of 1 3/4 hose reducer adaptered from a 2 1/2 hose lay of 500' to 750' depending on your response area needs and distances between hydrants. The Reverse Lay allows the engine to drop in front of the fire building and proceed to the hydrant.
    The design of the cross lay has exact lengths for a reason. making the lay 250' or 300' defeats the ability of a minimum manpower hose line stretch. I guess a 300' cross Lay could be an option if all your homes were set back over 100' with large front lawns. But that's not norm. If your district isn't made of McMansions or 6 story "H" types, I think the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it." applies here.

  18. #43
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    We looked at our community and our buildings and set-backs to determine preconnect lengths. We do not run a truck company and our standard operating guidelines have the first engine position in the most advantageous position for a quick attack on the fire using pre-connects if possible from tank water while a water supply is being established.

    We found that 200 feet would handle about 90% of our calls, but that we had places where that would not be enough so we added 300 foot preconnects too. We also added a 500 foot 3 inch apartment line in the hosebed with a wye and 100 feet of attack hose attached.

    We do not use 1 1/2, 1 3/4, or 2 1/2 inch hose for fire attack. All of our attack lines are 2 inch with 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We underpump the nozzle initially to get 160 gpm at 55 psi at the nozzle, we can of course go to 200 gpm at 75 psi, or dump the combo tip and go to the 1 1/4 slug where we flow 300 gpm at around 40 psi at the tip. This system has worked for us for well over a decade. One size attack line means you never grab the wrong line.
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  19. #44
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    In regards to the 300' cross-lay length, what is the purpose of having such a long length of small diameter hose? I agree that that is too long for a traditional "attack line" or whatever terminology you are accustomed to. My dept services a large rural area with very sporadic hydrant placement, it is not unusual that we lay our entire bed of 4", which is what we use for supply on an "everyday" structure assignment. Now our clientele are far from being able to own "Mansions", but a moderate percent of the time, access is limited, and 200' cross-lays aren't going to do the job. That being said, we also have 200' of 2 1/2 as a "Glendale" load, with a wye on the end, this combined with a 100' high-rise pack we collectively call the "shopping mall", this evolution is the FF bread and butter, aside from just pulling the cross-lay in my dept. I could very well be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the friction loss in the 300' attack line, would be substantially greater than that of the "shopping mall" evolution if deployed, causing the engineer to pump at higher RPM's thus putting greater stress on the engine and pump. although there is a slight bit more difficulty in maneuvering 2 1/2, when the wye is positioned at the door, or just inside the door, a 2 man interior crew can easily search an entire structure with the same ease of a single attack line of 200'. I guess what I'm getting at is there is obviously 100 ways to skin this cat, whatever works for some departments may not work for mine, and the other way around. But it is the duty of us as professionals, to know what we need, what will work, and to use the tools that are provided. I agree, don't reinvent the wheel, just make it work for your situation.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCMFD View Post
    In regards to the 300' cross-lay length, what is the purpose of having such a long length of small diameter hose? I agree that that is too long for a traditional "attack line" or whatever terminology you are accustomed to.

    Golly, I guess I'll tell our guys what we have been doing for over a decade doesn't work anymore because you say so. The truth is we can flow 300 gpm out of our 2 inch line, that is technically a medium sized attack line, at a pump pressure of 195 psi. The reason for a 300 foot 2 inch preconnect is that like any other pre-connect it is quick to put in operation and we looked at OUR community and it is what we need for some of our occupancies.

    The funniest part is we flow more through our 2 inch at the maximum flow than most FDs flow through their 2 1/2 and the 2 inch is far easier to move with limited staffing than a 2 1/2.


    My dept services a large rural area with very sporadic hydrant placement, it is not unusual that we lay our entire bed of 4", which is what we use for supply on an "everyday" structure assignment. Now our clientele are far from being able to own "Mansions", but a moderate percent of the time, access is limited, and 200' cross-lays aren't going to do the job. That being said, we also have 200' of 2 1/2 as a "Glendale" load, with a wye on the end, this combined with a 100' high-rise pack we collectively call the "shopping mall", this evolution is the FF bread and butter, aside from just pulling the cross-lay in my dept.

    Your "glenadale load" would be almost worthless here. If we can't reach it with a 300 foot preconnect, we are going to our "apartment lay" which is 500 feet of 3 inch (more water at less friction loss than 2 1/2) with a gated wye with 100 feet of 2 inch attached. We carry another 100 foot bundle on the rig to either extend the first 100 feet or to add another 100 foot line. This system works for us because we have buildings that we need every inch of that 500 feet to get to the backside of them, some we need part of that 500 feet to get deep into the building with an attack line.


    I could very well be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the friction loss in the 300' attack line, would be substantially greater than that of the "shopping mall" evolution if deployed, causing the engineer to pump at higher RPM's thus putting greater stress on the engine and pump.

    The pump pressure for our 300 foot pre-connect flowing 300 gpm is 195 psi. That is well within the capabilities of a well maintained, properly designed, modern pumper. If it's a problem I suggest some training, better maintenance or perhaps a new rig.

    although there is a slight bit more difficulty in maneuvering 2 1/2, when the wye is positioned at the door, orwell within the capabilities of a modern pumper. If 19e just inside the door, a 2 man interior crew can easily search an entire structure with the same ease of a single attack line of 200'. I guess what I'm getting at is there is obviously 100 ways to skin this cat, whatever works for some departments may not work for mine, and the other way around. But it is the duty of us as professionals, to know what we need, what will work, and to use the tools that are provided. I agree, don't reinvent the wheel, just make it work for your situation.

    We do know what we need. We looked at our community and we specced our new engine for 2 inch preconnects. We set friction loss standards at specific flows for our engine that the manufacturer had to meet. Because of our larger buildings and set backs we specified both 200 and 300 foot pre-connects.
    The thing that makes us believe this is working well is there is no one asking to go back to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 hoselines. Is it for everyone? No, it probably isn't but the truth is that isn't our concern, our concern is what works for us.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-09-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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    It seems as if you took offense to my post, I apologize for that I wasn't intentionally questioning your operations or the way your and yours. I was simply responding, in or did I question whether or not your guys know what they need for your community. So again sorry if you were offended, Take it easy sir, were all on the same team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCMFD View Post
    It seems as if you took offense to my post, I apologize for that I wasn't intentionally questioning your operations or the way your and yours. I was simply responding, in or did I question whether or not your guys know what they need for your community. So again sorry if you were offended, Take it easy sir, were all on the same team.
    Actually go back and read your original post. You did indeed question what we do. Yes, I did take offense at your tone. We did nozzle testing, hose testing, specifically specced flows and acceptable internal piping friction losses on our engine, and we practice with this set-up so that it works smoothly and efficiently for us. We didn't just buy pretty hose and cool looking nozzles without research and testing.

    By the way, there are other firefighters on here that talk about their FDs running 400 foot 1 1/2 inch pre-connects. There is a great big world out there and like you said there are 100 ways to skin a cat and not all of them may be familiar to you.
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    As I said before, I am truly sorry for being offensive, I was simply making statement, I was not in any form intentionally questioning your department. I must have miss-read your original post, I didn't realize that was in use with your department, take it for what its worth, I meant no ill will when responding.

    And patronizing is not needed, I am well aware that there is a great big world out there and things are done that I have no knowledge of, I read these forums to learn, not criticize, who am I to question another department, not my intention what so ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCMFD View Post
    As I said before, I am truly sorry for being offensive, I was simply making statement, I was not in any form intentionally questioning your department. I must have miss-read your original post, I didn't realize that was in use with your department, take it for what its worth, I meant no ill will when responding.

    And patronizing is not needed, I am well aware that there is a great big world out there and things are done that I have no knowledge of, I read these forums to learn, not criticize, who am I to question another department, not my intention what so ever.
    Then let's move on.
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  25. #50
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    The hose on our truck
    We run 100' of 1 3/4" off the bumper with a roll of 50' dead behind it
    Two 200' of 1 3/4" cross lays (above the pump panel)
    300' of 1 3/4" coming off the back in the hose bed.
    600' of 2 1/2" dead lay in hose bed

    The 300' pre-connect is a really new thing for us about a a year and a half we have been running it. We never had the option for it before due to the older trucks layout.

    We had many apartments that are 3 story and depending on where the curb was a 200' cross lay would not make it to a 3rd story apartment. So guys either had to add lengths of hose to make the stretch or use something like 2 1/2" or 3" to a high rise bundle. Its also nice just to have as an option when in doubt of the length of a stretch just pull it. Its much better to pack up an extra 100' after an attack then trying to add it before.

    Our 300' is not for some shopping center or mall. We do have a mall and many large shopping centers. For that we carry 600' dead lay of 3 inch with a gated wye on the end to connect smaller attack lines.
    Last edited by Snarff; 12-11-2013 at 09:54 AM.

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