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  1. #21
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    We have 150ft of 1 3/4 inch on each of our crosslays and 200ft of 1 3/4 off our back.

    We don't have many houses that are set back from the curb and we found out that extra 50ft is usually in a spagetti pile somewhere so we normal pull the 150ft.

    If we come to a larger house or attic fire we pull the 200 ft off the back, but our 150ft will make the attic at 95% of the homes in our coverage area.


  2. #22
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    2) 1-3/4" 150' crosslays 1 off each side color coded to pump panel. 150' of extra 1-3/4" line next to crosslays for extension if needed.
    Last edited by k1500chevy97; 09-30-2006 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Yes. Get this: if it's short, we'll lengthen it with 4 more sections of 1 1/2". EP is 220 on the 400', 280 if extended all the way. 125 gpm constant volume fog nozzles. Works for us. Go ask some of the ex-DCFD guys in your borough, there's got to be at least a half-dozen. We generally have 3-4 lines going in within 4-8 minutes of dispatch, and they go in fast, not like gentlemen.

    As one of our retired deputy chiefs described the required flow equation: a little water, and a lot of BALLS. He wasn't so good at math.

    FWIW, we tried the 1 3/4" with 15/16" tip thing for about a year, 6 years ago. Didn't take.
    My first question is, what is the NP supposed to be on your nozzle? My second is, are you trying to get 125gpm from the nozzle? For the 400ft line I figure you have 200lbs FL flowing 125gpm's. So you have 20lbs NP? With the added 200ft, 4 sections of 50ft 1 1/2, that would be 600ft. flowing 125gpm and FL at 300lbs. Since according to the cheat sheet I have, for 1 1/2 flowing 125 the FL is 50lbs per 100ft. If your EP is 280 for the 600ft line then you are not overcoming the 300lbs FL to get the desired 125gpm's. Unless you don't want 125gpm's. Seems to me if you go by the addage of, little water, and a lot of balls, your asking for trouble in case things go sour. I am not even going to start asking about the manning and 3-4 lines within 4 to 8 minutes. Still trying to figure out the first part. If it works then fine, but I am just trying to figure out how.

  4. #24
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    30 psi per 100'. Probably not exactlly 125, but more than 100'. I doubt they've been flow tested.

    33 4 man engine companies, 16 5 man truck companies, 3 5 man rescue companies in 64 square miles.

    Box alarm = 5 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Battalion Fire Chief, 1 Rescue Squad
    1st Engine lays in to the front, pulls a line through the front door.
    2nd Engine lays in to the rear, pulls a line to the basement/rear entrance, checks basement, and goes up.
    3rd Engine pumps first line, backs up first line
    4th Engine pumps second supply, backs up second line.
    5th Engine secures 3rd W.S. and stands by as the 'safety company' part of the RIG
    1st Truck positions at front, ladders & ventilates, assists on fire floor.
    2nd Truck positions at rear, ladders & ventilates, assists above fire floor.
    Rescue (two teams) searches fire floor and floor above.

    This is the basic SOG, there are specific ones for row houses, etc.

  5. #25
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    Ok, so your after just 100gpm's then. That makes sense to me now, amazing how a few gpm's makes that much differnece. I still would rather pull a 3 inch with a gated wye and add the attack lines to it. That's what we do in my carreer department and combination deparment I am a volunteer with. But to each his own. From where I am from we consider it a blessing to have 4 on the pumper any day. You danged big city slickers always seem to have enough to stand around and whizz on the fire to put it out. And thanks for the added info that was cool to see what you have on a response.

    Speaking of that where I am a carreer firefighter, we have two engines, manned by 3 or 4, one rescue with at least 1, depending on kelly days and such and a minimum staffing of 9 including the Asst. Chief. With the Combination Dept. I am with we have a 3 man crew on first truck on weekdays during the day, these are the paid guys, evening and weekends can have a 4 man crew on the first due engine in the city. Up to six for the second due and up to 5 on the thrid due. For rural, the first truck, 6 man cab, we go with a minimum of the three during work hours and up to 6 other times. Up to 5 on the second truck, a tanker/pumper, and up to 3 on the second and third tankers. We do average about 11 guys on a call even if they end up standing by at the station when not needed on the scene.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtTim556
    My first question is, what is the NP supposed to be on your nozzle? My second is, are you trying to get 125gpm from the nozzle? For the 400ft line I figure you have 200lbs FL flowing 125gpm's. So you have 20lbs NP? With the added 200ft, 4 sections of 50ft 1 1/2, that would be 600ft. flowing 125gpm and FL at 300lbs.
    That's not what my chart shows...my trust Waterous pocket chart shows 35 psi/100' loss for 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. So, a 400' load would have 140 psi FL in the line, and if they're running 75 psi fixed gallonage nozzles (we have a couple of these on our hi-rise packs and trash lines), they'd need a baseline discharge pressure of 215 psi. That would work. Another 200' extension would add 70 psi in FL in the line, and bring the required discharge pressure to 285 psi (rounded off). So, SBrooks' scenario is well within the realm of the feasible, and if DCFD wants to run really long loads like this, I have to believe they'd have thought of using low pressure fog nozzles, as I've suggested here.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsnyder
    That's not what my chart shows...my trust Waterous pocket chart shows 35 psi/100' loss for 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. So, a 400' load would have 140 psi FL in the line, and if they're running 75 psi fixed gallonage nozzles (we have a couple of these on our hi-rise packs and trash lines), they'd need a baseline discharge pressure of 215 psi. That would work. Another 200' extension would add 70 psi in FL in the line, and bring the required discharge pressure to 285 psi (rounded off). So, SBrooks' scenario is well within the realm of the feasible, and if DCFD wants to run really long loads like this, I have to believe they'd have thought of using low pressure fog nozzles, as I've suggested here.
    Checked in another pocket guide I have and it says 38psi FL per 100ft at 125gpm's. Much closer to the 35 you state from Waterous. Now I wonder why the big difference in the two guides. I know it may not be an exact science but damn that much difference. I am not familiar with the the nozzle he was talking about so was not sure about the pressure needed at the nozzle. Anyway both ways cleared a lot up for me. I think I need a new pocket guide now. I wasn't disagreeing or anything just trying to figure that out with what I had. One of the great things about these forums is you can pick the brain of other firefighters and get the answer to your questions. I have been in this business for 26 years and am still learning and relearning. Thanks brothers for the help.

  8. #28
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    Physics, like Math and all the other subjects you learned in the real world, is apparently different in the District of Columbia. Our Pump Manual states 30 psi / 100' of 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. It therefore must be true.

    Nozzles are Akron Assault 125 gpm / 100 psi break apart nozzles.

    350' 1 1/2" = 205 psi EP
    400' 1 1/2" = 220 psi EP
    500' 1 1/2" = 250 psi EP
    600' 1 1/2" = 280 psi EP
    plus a handful for elevation

    pumps are 1250 gpm 2 stage Waterous.

    When we tried 1 3/4" back in 2000, we used 150 gpm / 75 psi break aparts with a 15/16" slug. I believe we still have the 15/16" cutoffs, but back to the 125/100 nozzles.

    I don't know what the flow / pressure is actually, but I do know that you get a workable stream out of the butt, it's not particularly powerful, but it will reach across a room.

    IF (<--notice its a big if) 30 psi / 100' @ 125 gpm is accurate, we get roughly 170 gpm/45 psi on our 200's, and 155 gpm / 35 psi on our 400's when we take the fog tip off.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Physics, like Math and all the other subjects you learned in the real world, is apparently different in the District of Columbia. Our Pump Manual states 30 psi / 100' of 1 1/2" hose at 125 gpm. It therefore must be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by LtTim556
    Checked in another pocket guide I have and it says 38psi FL per 100ft at 125gpm's. Much closer to the 35 you state from Waterous. Now I wonder why the big difference in the two guides. I know it may not be an exact science but damn that much difference.
    Almost any two you pick up will be different...friction loss in hose will be affected by a variety of factors, including the exact composition and construction of the inner lining, temperature, coupling size and type, etc. So, any given pair of charts can be different for a variety of reasons. I've got Waterous pocket charts and a Hale slide rule, both of which I use from time to time, and they don't exactly match. What I like about using pump manufacturers' charts is that they usualy try to midline the loss estimates so that they are close for a variety of types of hose.

    You also have to be careful in using the charts that come with new hose. First off, they are specific to that manufacturer's hose, which may not have exactly the same characteristics as another manufacturer's hose. Also, they often refer to the loss in the hose itself only, irrespective of things like couplings. It can make a difference...for example, the friction loss coefficient for 2" hose is about 6.5, and that's fine if you have it coupled 2" (as we do). Couple that same 2" hose with 1 1/2" (as most companies do), and it takes your friction loss coefficient up to about 8.0. Not huge, but it will make a difference on a quick reference chart.

    Similarly, you generally get slightly lower friction loss coefficients from thermoplastic lined hose than rubber-lined hose, and rubber-lined hose made in recent years often has lower coefficients than older rubber-lined hose.

    Anyway, most of these charts will be close to each other, but all of the calculations used to make them are theoretical. You won't really know what your particular setup gives you unless you flow test it yourself (which is something else I bet DCFD has done at some point).
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 10-19-2006 at 11:22 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecfr1978
    Your crosslay lengths should depend on how close you can get to the houses and how big the houses are. Intsead of making your cross lays longer during the winter months, why not use a 300-400' 3" line with a water thief (1-2 1/2"outlet & 2-1 1/2" outlets). Then make some short sections of 1 3/4" (5-6' long "pigtails") hose to get the couplings out of the hose bed, it makes it easier to uncouple the hose, then attach the preconnects to the water thief. This is the setup we use for some of our apartment complexes, it may be take a little longer, but with practice it goes smoothly.
    I dont really like the water thief or gated wye idea, only because now if you get a burst length of 3", or whatever size the hose is, before the wye, you just put the line on the fire floor and the line on the floor above OOS. Id rather see different lines coming off the rig. But if it works for you, stick with what you know....
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  11. #31
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    The main reason we use the water thief is to help reduce the friction loss and engine pressure. Plus if you go through a narrow breeze way or other small opening you only have to worry about one line instead of two or more.

  12. #32
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    All of our trucks have
    (2) 200' 1 3/4
    (1) 200' 2 1/2 crosslays
    600' 2 1/2 in the hosebed
    and our main out engine at St 1 has a 1" booster

  13. #33
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    Being from a part of the world that gets cold, we have trucks with a top mount pump control in an enclosed heated cab, on a commercial chassis. There is a provision within the cab to seat three firefighters. Under the seat is where the speedlays (crosslays) are, although there is a provision for crosslays above the side pump panels (if specified on truck order).

    We use a traditional flat lay for the first layer, and then extend the lay to form two loops (for each speedlay) on each side of the truck. Then we continue with the traditional flat lay, and finally keep the nozzle somewhere in the middle of the hose load.

    This allows the firefighters to grab a loop from either side of the truck, and pull the entire load off on one or both speedlays. We find that this type of loading allows us to have twin 200ft (1 ¾”) attack lines on either side of the truck, or pull one line off each side as required.

    Stay Safe

  14. #34
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    Default Hose questions and what we run

    Our new engines carry.

    2- 200' 1 3/4 with 175 gpm fogs at 120 psi- speedlay
    1- 200' 2 1/2 with 1 3/8 tip (390gpm @ 90psi) - speedlay-
    1- 400' 2 1/2 leader with a 1 1/4" leader tip- rear bed
    1- 600' 3" to 100' skid of 1 3/4"- rear bed
    1000' 5"

    1- 100' 1 3/4" standpipe pack
    1- 100' trashline front bumper

    The speedlays were on a flowmeter to check the numbers

    Also, do any of you run PONN supreme or conquest. I have an opportunity to change over from ANGUS Ultima and Ultima Lite. If you do run the PONN please give the pros and cons.

  15. #35
    Forum Member rschultzjr's Avatar
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    My VFD Department has:
    1 Trashline in the front bumper of 100ft of 1 3/4"
    2 Crosslays each cross lay is 200ft of 1 3/4"
    and
    1 Rear preconnect 200ft of 2 1-2"
    All nozzles are Automatic Fog nozzles.

  16. #36
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    200' of 1 3/4" hose with an 8' section of 1 3/4 connected to the truck for easy disconnecting from the crosslay.

    150' of 2 1/2" hose

  17. #37
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    Our engine 3 top mount 1000gpm Waterous/1000 gal, 40 gal. foam with 2 color coded 200' 1 3/4 cross-lays with Cafs smoothbore nozzles, on the back of cab ,
    1 250' 2 1/2 with a fog combo nozzle behind rear of pump station
    2 300' 2 1/2 pre-connects from rear hose-bed 1 CAFS ,1 combo nozzle
    1,250 4" ldh in hose-bed for lay in.
    all pre-connects have 1st length color coded to pump panel
    additional 250' of 1 3/4 rolled in compartment for those long lays around back of structures.

    engine 1 exact same hose load
    1000 gpm hale 1000 gal tank top mount with out CAFS

    Both on tilt cab commercial cab-overs for outstanding maneuverability. This works well for us as most structures are set back from drives and roadways

  18. #38
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    Our Engine has:

    (3) 200' 1 3/4" crosslays with Akron Saberjets
    (1) 100' 1 3/4" bumper line with Akron Turbojet
    (1) 300' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.
    (1) 200' 2 1/2" off the back with 15/16" smoothbore.

    The Engine also carries 700' of 1 3/4", 700' 0f 2 1/2" for additional lines / reach. All of the pre-connected lines have pump gauges, controls, nozzles and hose all color coded for ease of identification.

    We use the Ponn Supreme hose also, works pretty good. The one thing we noticed is that when it is new and gets wet it becomes slippery with a soap-like lather.

    The other two Engines are different and I don't recall their lines, nor the ones on the Quint.
    "Roundhead642"
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    Last Alarm 6/22/97 Brewster FD
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  19. #39
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    Our two engines:

    Engine 11 ('89 Spartan/FMC, 1500gpm/1000 gallons)
    4- 1 3/4"x200' with TFT Thunderfogs preset at 125 gpm
    2- 2 1/2"x200', one with a fog one with stacked tips.
    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

    The way this truck's set up, we have three speedlays in front of the pump and two crosslays behind the panel (top mount, one crosslay is one of the 2 1/2") and the other 2 1/2" off the rear in the hosebed. All of the lays except the top speedlay, which is not covered, is triple-layer loaded. The top speedlay is flat loaded so we can use it in shorter sections if needed. Simply pull what we need and connect it to the open connection on the trashline's wye.

    Engine 12 ('07 KW/Rosenbauer, 1750gpm/2500 gallons)
    3- 1 3/4"x200' triple layer loads above pump
    2- 2 1/2"x200 triple layer loads in hosebed
    1- 1 1/2"x100' trash line, wyed off pass. side discharge with basket in running board.

    Both truck also carry a 1 1/2"x150' "hotel pack" on them. What we use them for is long hoselays when needed. We'll pull off one of the 2 1/2" preconnects and wye it into the hotel pack. If we need a second line, we'll pull the pack off the other truck or use one of the preconnects and drag it to the wye.

    One of the biggest reasons we use 200' on the preconnects is for ISO. The other reason is we'd rather have too much hose than not enough. We've had too many fires when we ran 150' preconnects that we had to add a section to get where we needed. The extra 50' has made a major difference.

  20. #40
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    First out rigs (including the quint):

    1 100' 1 3/4 bumper line (fog)
    1 150' 1 3/4" crosslay (fog)
    1 200' 1 3/4" crosslay, water/foam (fog)
    1 150' 2 1/2" crosslay (solid-bore)
    1 200' 3" crosslay with gated wye (for courtyard lay).

    The reserve rigs dont have the bumper line, and the 2 1/2" and courtyard lay go off the rear.

    The rest of the load is 200' 3" reverse loaded for standpipes, 1000' 5" LDH for supply and a standpipe pack made up of 2 100' sections of 2".
    Last edited by Dave1983; 02-17-2007 at 04:48 PM.
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