1. #1
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    Default Crosslay Lengths

    hey guys - got a question for you all.
    there are lots of different opinions on how much 1 3/4 should be loaded into your crosslays. i use the word opinions because it would be difficult to nail down a right and wrong answer since it's all based on your area. that said, what are some of your opinions on approperate lengths of hose to load in a rural fire department's crosslays. winter vs summer?
    thanks,
    Justin

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    We run 200' of 1 3/4" for the crosslays and 200' of 2 1/2" with a TFT blitzfire for when things get serious.

    No difference between winter and summer.

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    I don't think I've ever heard of or seen a dept load different lengths based on summer vs winter. That's a new one for me.

    Anyway, I prefer at LEAST 200' for crosslays, but we use 2". At least 250' of 2.5" rear preconnects for the big stuff.

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    Default summer and winter

    we have 100' trash line ...........2 200' preconnects and a 2 1/2 .........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I take it that the differing loads are for the long stretches up the drives when the snow flies and if you can not take the drive with your engine. Understandable but why not keep the x-lays long all year and teach how to break the line and hook the discharge if the extra hose isn't needed?

    I work 2 departments both with differing set ups for x-lays

    dept a:
    mostly older village and rural: all are 250' x-lays combo break-apart nozzles s-loaded

    dept b:
    1/3 bungelos, 1/3 commercial and industrial, 1/3 new residential : one 300" speedlay w/ 15/16 smooth bores, two x-lays w. auto fogs, one 2.5" w. 1 1/4 sb all are flat loaded w/ ears at 50'


    Personal choice:
    Make all 1.75" x-lays 300 ft (min of 2 on each rig) and break down the line as the stretch dictates and use side discharges, you'll need ears at 50', 150' and 250'. (this is for mainly the backup man to clear the tray or if you need a stretch that can be flipped over to make it a quick minuteman you can ei. junkyards and long long stretches) (Also I am a sb fan, fog in compartment for use if needed on that once in carreer propane christmas tree fire like in probie school)
    make 2.5" 600 ft in the rear hosebed with 1 1/4" tip attached

    I personally would aslo specify that the x-lays and stacked only 2 wide to help in making the quick minuteman flip (at trick learned from the other good fire mag)

    Also be aggressive in teaching engine company ops and pumping!!! Know thy pump, know how to estimate the stretch. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THIS! I have personally had some really good results by aggressive training.

    Please read stuff by Andy Fredricks FDNY and see if it help. I'd love to talk about your situation and see if I can help.

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    thanks ffmedcbk1 for your reply.
    you are correct about the different stretches for summer vs winter.
    i would appreciate an oppertunity to pick your brain a bit more.
    you can contact me at justinmcguigan@yahoo.ca and i will then send along my personal e-mail address. thanks! jrm

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    On our engines we carrying a 200' 1.75" and a 250' 1.75" crosslay then out the back is 200' of 2.5 with stacktips and 300' of 2.5" with a water theif.

    We carry the long 1.75" crosslays because of the large size of residences in our city plus the set backs off the street, not for seasonal reasons.

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    DCFD uses
    100' bumper
    2 200' crosslays
    1 350-400' rear line
    1 200-250 2.5" line (smoothbore)

    all lines are 1 1/2" 125 gpm fog and can be extended by break apart nozzles & 100' standpipe packs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    DCFD uses
    100' bumper
    2 200' crosslays
    1 350-400' rear line
    1 200-250 2.5" line (smoothbore)

    all lines are 1 1/2" 125 gpm fog and can be extended by break apart nozzles & 100' standpipe packs.
    Just clearing this up:

    You have a 350-400' (7-8 length) 1 1/2" fog line?

    I am just curious
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    Our structural 1-3/4"s are 200 feet. Bumper lines are 100' (vehicle and dumpster fires). TFT's on the 1-3/4, so we limit it to 200'. We run a 300' 2" smoothie if needed. Also have a 200' 3" with water thief to supply either 2" hy-rise packs or 1 2-1/2" 100' line. It fits most any structure in our due.

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    All crosslays are now 200'. 1 3/4" and 2 1/2". On the back, we have a bed of 500' 2 1/2" deadlay that we pull for the hard to reach areas. We also carry 2 100' 1 3/4" lines in straps to go along with the hard to reach area. Front bumpers also have 75-100' 1 3/4" line.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Our crosslays are 200' of 1-3/4". We also have a 300' line made up of 200' of 2" and 100' of 1 3/4" on the back as well as 200' of 2-1/2" and 200' of 3" preconnected.

    On the occasion that we can't reach the house with a preconnect, we will stretch the 3" and then add a gate and a stand-pipe pack. We have plenty of 3" as supply line if the 200' is not enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    Just clearing this up:

    You have a 350-400' (7-8 length) 1 1/2" fog line?

    I am just curious
    Yes. Get this: if it's short, we'll lengthen it with 4 more sections of 1 1/2". EP is 220 on the 400', 280 if extended all the way. 125 gpm constant volume fog nozzles. Works for us. Go ask some of the ex-DCFD guys in your borough, there's got to be at least a half-dozen. We generally have 3-4 lines going in within 4-8 minutes of dispatch, and they go in fast, not like gentlemen.

    As one of our retired deputy chiefs described the required flow equation: a little water, and a lot of BALLS. He wasn't so good at math.

    FWIW, we tried the 1 3/4" with 15/16" tip thing for about a year, 6 years ago. Didn't take.
    Last edited by SBrooks; 09-26-2006 at 10:42 AM.

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    Our first due engine has 200 and 250' 1 3/4" lines with 15/16" saberjets. 200' 2 1/2" stacked tip (1 1/8, 1 1/4") and 150' 2 1/2" 500 GPM gun off the rear. There is also 100' of 1 1/2" line off the bumper with 150 GPM fixed flow fog.

    Our second due engine has a 300' 1 1/2" line as well with 125 GPM low pressure fog nozzle but no preconnected step gun.

    Our engine pressure is somewhere in the 220 range as well for the 300' line. We have this so we can run it through from a block over, or if the engine is on the hydrant and we need another attack line quick.

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    Default we use

    all of our hose is 2in ponn qonquest 800 with low pressure chief nozzles 50/150 front bumper is 100ft the mattydales are 200ft and a rear line of 350ft

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Yes. Get this: if it's short, we'll lengthen it with 4 more sections of 1 1/2". EP is 220 on the 400', 280 if extended all the way. 125 gpm constant volume fog nozzles. Works for us. Go ask some of the ex-DCFD guys in your borough, there's got to be at least a half-dozen. We generally have 3-4 lines going in within 4-8 minutes of dispatch, and they go in fast, not like gentlemen.

    As one of our retired deputy chiefs described the required flow equation: a little water, and a lot of BALLS. He wasn't so good at math.

    FWIW, we tried the 1 3/4" with 15/16" tip thing for about a year, 6 years ago. Didn't take.
    Yeah, I just had a beer with 2 of those DCFD guys last night. We always get into the Engine debates and most of it centers on Engine operations and the differences in operations (Gentlemen vs. GFY Engine Work)

    It isn't what I would do, but if it works for you guys, good for you! The building construction is different, the tactics are different and if you need to get a line in before the next guy (or the previous guy) then this probably works well.

    Stay safe & wear your chin-strap
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    I'd take an FDNY truck and a DCFD engine anyday. (not that our trucks are bad)
    Me, I'll stay on the Squad. (Rescue, for for those of you for whom the world stops at the George Washington Bridge)

    Say hi to the guys.

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    Your crosslay lengths should depend on how close you can get to the houses and how big the houses are. Intsead of making your cross lays longer during the winter months, why not use a 300-400' 3" line with a water thief (1-2 1/2"outlet & 2-1 1/2" outlets). Then make some short sections of 1 3/4" (5-6' long "pigtails") hose to get the couplings out of the hose bed, it makes it easier to uncouple the hose, then attach the preconnects to the water thief. This is the setup we use for some of our apartment complexes, it may be take a little longer, but with practice it goes smoothly.

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    Default Crosslay or Pre-Connect Hose Beds

    In Canada most FD's have the following configurations (Yes we get Summer too sometimes..)

    Trashline 100'-200' of 1-1/2" or 1-3/4"
    Crosslays 100'-200' of 1-1/2" or 1-3/4"
    200' of 2-1/2" for a Blitz Line
    Rear 200-300' of 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" with one each side or two each side
    Rear 400-600' of 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" for longer lays that can be broken
    and then attached to a rear of body face (below hosebed) port

    We are seeing some FD's going with a Booster Reel in either the Dunnage area above the pump or in the Tailboard Compartment with a lightweight 1" or 1-1/2" hose (Niedner REELTEX) that is lighter and easier to use and can flow more than the traditional rubber hose. Riverside County CA FD has 60 Smeal MF (Multi-Functional) Engines with this configuration and seems to work really well for both grass fires and car accidents etc.

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    Default

    2x 1 3/4" crosslays with auto-fogs at 200'
    1x 2 1/2" rear auto-fog at 200'
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    We have 150ft of 1 3/4 inch on each of our crosslays and 200ft of 1 3/4 off our back.

    We don't have many houses that are set back from the curb and we found out that extra 50ft is usually in a spagetti pile somewhere so we normal pull the 150ft.

    If we come to a larger house or attic fire we pull the 200 ft off the back, but our 150ft will make the attic at 95% of the homes in our coverage area.

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    2) 1-3/4" 150' crosslays 1 off each side color coded to pump panel. 150' of extra 1-3/4" line next to crosslays for extension if needed.
    Last edited by k1500chevy97; 09-30-2006 at 05:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Yes. Get this: if it's short, we'll lengthen it with 4 more sections of 1 1/2". EP is 220 on the 400', 280 if extended all the way. 125 gpm constant volume fog nozzles. Works for us. Go ask some of the ex-DCFD guys in your borough, there's got to be at least a half-dozen. We generally have 3-4 lines going in within 4-8 minutes of dispatch, and they go in fast, not like gentlemen.

    As one of our retired deputy chiefs described the required flow equation: a little water, and a lot of BALLS. He wasn't so good at math.

    FWIW, we tried the 1 3/4" with 15/16" tip thing for about a year, 6 years ago. Didn't take.
    My first question is, what is the NP supposed to be on your nozzle? My second is, are you trying to get 125gpm from the nozzle? For the 400ft line I figure you have 200lbs FL flowing 125gpm's. So you have 20lbs NP? With the added 200ft, 4 sections of 50ft 1 1/2, that would be 600ft. flowing 125gpm and FL at 300lbs. Since according to the cheat sheet I have, for 1 1/2 flowing 125 the FL is 50lbs per 100ft. If your EP is 280 for the 600ft line then you are not overcoming the 300lbs FL to get the desired 125gpm's. Unless you don't want 125gpm's. Seems to me if you go by the addage of, little water, and a lot of balls, your asking for trouble in case things go sour. I am not even going to start asking about the manning and 3-4 lines within 4 to 8 minutes. Still trying to figure out the first part. If it works then fine, but I am just trying to figure out how.

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    30 psi per 100'. Probably not exactlly 125, but more than 100'. I doubt they've been flow tested.

    33 4 man engine companies, 16 5 man truck companies, 3 5 man rescue companies in 64 square miles.

    Box alarm = 5 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Battalion Fire Chief, 1 Rescue Squad
    1st Engine lays in to the front, pulls a line through the front door.
    2nd Engine lays in to the rear, pulls a line to the basement/rear entrance, checks basement, and goes up.
    3rd Engine pumps first line, backs up first line
    4th Engine pumps second supply, backs up second line.
    5th Engine secures 3rd W.S. and stands by as the 'safety company' part of the RIG
    1st Truck positions at front, ladders & ventilates, assists on fire floor.
    2nd Truck positions at rear, ladders & ventilates, assists above fire floor.
    Rescue (two teams) searches fire floor and floor above.

    This is the basic SOG, there are specific ones for row houses, etc.

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    Ok, so your after just 100gpm's then. That makes sense to me now, amazing how a few gpm's makes that much differnece. I still would rather pull a 3 inch with a gated wye and add the attack lines to it. That's what we do in my carreer department and combination deparment I am a volunteer with. But to each his own. From where I am from we consider it a blessing to have 4 on the pumper any day. You danged big city slickers always seem to have enough to stand around and whizz on the fire to put it out. And thanks for the added info that was cool to see what you have on a response.

    Speaking of that where I am a carreer firefighter, we have two engines, manned by 3 or 4, one rescue with at least 1, depending on kelly days and such and a minimum staffing of 9 including the Asst. Chief. With the Combination Dept. I am with we have a 3 man crew on first truck on weekdays during the day, these are the paid guys, evening and weekends can have a 4 man crew on the first due engine in the city. Up to six for the second due and up to 5 on the thrid due. For rural, the first truck, 6 man cab, we go with a minimum of the three during work hours and up to 6 other times. Up to 5 on the second truck, a tanker/pumper, and up to 3 on the second and third tankers. We do average about 11 guys on a call even if they end up standing by at the station when not needed on the scene.

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