Thread: hose

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    We are talking about moving to a 2" attack lines from our 1 3/4. Question is, since I just can't seem to remember. 1 3/4 hose is rated up to 200 gallons, what is 2" and 2 1/2" rated for? How much water are they rated for

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    We use 2 inch hose with low pressure 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles, with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip.

    we under pump the nozzle to get about 160 at 55 psi, then we can bump to 200 at 75, or spin off the combo tip and flow 300 at just over 40 psi at the tip.

    We have never tried to flow more than that because that because we felt that our flows were more than enough for a handline.

    FyredUp

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    Don't waste your money, Stick to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2. The extra water flow that your going to gain, which is minimal is not worth the money or the extra work it takes to maneuver it compared to the 1 3/4!

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefiftyfive
    Don't waste your money, Stick to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2. The extra water flow that your going to gain, which is minimal is not worth the money or the extra work it takes to maneuver it compared to the 1 3/4!
    Wrong. 2" with a 1" smoothbore. If the boys on the line can't handle that, put them on the bandaid bus.

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    is my department the only one that uses a 1-1/2 attack line??? haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer
    Wrong. 2" with a 1" smoothbore. If the boys on the line can't handle that, put them on the bandaid bus.
    No he's not. He's actually got a good point. Most fires are handled with the 1.75" line flowing upwards of 180 gpm....again, thats more than enough water for 99% of the jobs we all go to. For the other 1%....pull the 2.5 or use the deck pipe.

    There are depts out there that have gone to the 2" line w/ 1" Sb tip. Thats great...it does work. One of my old depts had the same set up for 4 years, but dumped it and went back to 1.75 and 2.5". And really, more money for more work and not much more water. We found a solution, there are hose makers out there that use materials that allow the 1.75" to flow over 200 gpm with minimal FL and reaction. Look into that before going bigger.

    The 2"/1" Sb concept is great and can benefit, but look at you manpower and other resources before spending the money. Also, take a look at you response area, what are your stretches like?, how long are they?, PDs or MDs? etc etc.

    The best advice I could give would be: Have the salesman bring you about 200' of the 2" line and using the nozzles you typically would use, try it out, see how the men like it.

    Another factor is your depts "style" or firefighting. And to be quite honest, IMO, the more aggressive you are, the more you will be able to do with less. 1.75" will put out a tremendous amount of fire with a aggressive, smart, and capable nozzle team.
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    So how does 2 guys on a 2" line differ from 2 guys on a 1-3/4"? I still stand by the fact that manpower wise, its no different. I agree, its more water either way than 99% of the fires need, but we agreed it fit better for our ops (longer than 200' lines especially). More versatility, no real change in operation.

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    ok, this is some cool info you guys have given me. This is the first time to this forum and I love hydraulics and doing problems, so I will be here alot more to read and learn.
    Anyway, the truck is new. So there is no hose, we have to order it so 1 3/4 and 2" would still have to be purchased. Don't ask why becausewe are *** backwards in our tactics, but it is going on our new ladder truck for a quick knock down if first in. It has a 500 gallon tank in it too.
    But what I'm trying to fnd out is what is the 2" rated for maxium gpm? Am I right when I say 1 3/4 is rated for up to 200 gallons with a 1" tip on a smooth bore. 1" tip will give you 200 gallons at proper psi, 7/8 will give you 160 gpm at proper psi and effective stream. What is 2" hose rated for?

    Fryed up, you guys have it. What is maxium rating for it?


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    We use 2 inch hose with low pressure 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles, with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip.

    we under pump the nozzle to get about 160 at 55 psi, then we can bump to 200 at 75, or spin off the combo tip and flow 300 at just over 40 psi at the tip.

    We have never tried to flow more than that because that because we felt that our flows were more than enough for a handline.

    FyredUp

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    Hose is not specifically "rated" for a given flow. Commonly accepted maximum efficient flow for a given size hoseline is based on the friction loss at that flow rate. Comparison of 1-3/4", 2", and 2-1/2" hose is as follows:

    1-3/4" Hose
    125 gpm - 24 psi/100'
    150 gpm - 35 psi/100'
    175 gpm - 48 psi/100'
    200 gpm - 62 psi/100'
    250 gpm - 97 psi/100'
    300 gpm - 140 psi/100'

    2" Hose
    125 gpm - 13psi/100'
    150 gpm - 18psi/100'
    175 gpm - 25psi/100'
    200 gpm - 32psi/100'
    250 gpm - 50psi/100'
    300 gpm - 72psi/100'

    2-1/2" Hose
    125 gpm - 3 psi/100'
    150 gpm - 5 psi/100'
    175 gpm - 6 psi/100'
    200 gpm - 8 psi/100'
    250 gpm - 12.5 psi/100'
    300 gpm - 18 psi/100'

    Friction loss was calculated using the Q formula (rather than a fireground estimation method).

    As illustrated above, the frictionloss in 1-3/4" hose at its "rated flow" of 200 gpm is considerably different than the "rated flow" of 2-1/2" at 300 gpm. The limitation in the case of 2-1/2 is more the nozzle reaction for agressive handline use than the friction loss. If you are comparing 1-3/4" and 2" directly, at the friction loss reqired for 200 gpm in 1-3/4" hose (62 psi/100') you will deliver 278 gpm through the same length 2" hoseline (an increase of 39%).

    Quite some time ago I conducted time trials with 1-1/2", 1-3/4", 2", and 2-1/2" hose. The time difference for deployment of any of the three smaller sizes of hose a distance of 200' through the interior of a residential structure to a location on floor 2 with a crew of two was not significant. However, as has been observed in this thread, the firefighters found that it was a bit more work with the 2" hose (no significant difference in work was found with the 1-3/4" line and 1-1/2" line). To achieve the same time with 2-1/2" hose, the crew size need to be at leased doubled to a crew of four. Given the fact that a 200' long 2-1/2" line with either a 1-1/4" solid stream tip or substantial combination nozzle (300 gpm) only flows 8% more than a 2" handline, the 2" line has a distinct advantage in this situation (200' line length, residential configuration).

    Based on this research, I believe that the 2" line has substantial advantages with lightly staffed companies. However, as the required length of hoseline extends substantially beyond 200', the comparison with 2-1/2" hose becomes less favorable.

    If used as the "small handline" on apparatus, 2" provides a greater range of flow capability with a bit more work. It can to some extent replace large handlines if the length of line is not that long, but fades as line length is extended. Each of these sizes of hose is a good tool when used appropriately. Selection should be based on the flow rates required, staffing levels, and tactical application.

    Hope that this helps.

    Cheers,
    Ed Hartin, MS, EFO, MIFireE

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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer
    So how does 2 guys on a 2" line differ from 2 guys on a 1-3/4"? I still stand by the fact that manpower wise, its no different. I agree, its more water either way than 99% of the fires need, but we agreed it fit better for our ops (longer than 200' lines especially). More versatility, no real change in operation.
    The two guys are going to move the 1.75" faster and easier than 2 with the 2". How we operate lines (my old vollies/and current career) is different than most. We don't pencil, we don't open up then shut down, then advance. Once the line is open, it stays open, we work the line in a RAPID clockwise pattern and sweep the floor, and all the while aggressivly advancing in using a crouch (which I prefer), so to take the extra beating for a little more water that I don't need, to me seems like a waste. Especially if I have to do it 2 or 3 times in a 24 hour period. Unless the 2" is in some way lighter and more maneuverable. Like I said, if it works for you great, keep it up. I gave my experiance and reasons. A vollie house that I was in had it for 4 years, and reverted back to the 1.75" line. 2" was just not neccesary...we knew there was a second line coming...and if need be a few more. Noone is ever going to convince me otherwise. KISS...little fire, little water, Big fire, big water.

    Good Luck to ya'
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    excellant, excellant info. My thing is that is going to be questioned is. Everyone is saying that the little bit more water is not worth all the extra work.
    Now below you have 1-3/4 flowing 200 gpm at 62psi (which nozzle were you using? 1" smooth?) and the 2" is flowing 200gpm at 32 psi. Everyone is going to look at that and just see the psi difference and think wow less work , lower pressures. why is it considered more work. I don't use this hose so I have no honest opinion. And once you get over 200gpm , you are going to have to use stack tips at bigger sizes to get effective steams at that GPM, right?
    These are going to be used on 200' preconnect for quick attacks with a 500 gallon tank if needed. looks like it is going to be man with 2, yes I said 2. Boy, NFPA1710 would have a field day with this as being used as a quick interior attack. But maybe three, I don't think are going to do that right away but we are working on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by hartin
    Hose is not specifically "rated" for a given flow. Commonly accepted maximum efficient flow for a given size hoseline is based on the

    1-3/4" Hose
    125 gpm - 24 psi/100'
    150 gpm - 35 psi/100'
    175 gpm - 48 psi/100'
    200 gpm - 62 psi/100'
    250 gpm - 97 psi/100'
    300 gpm - 140 psi/100'

    2" Hose
    125 gpm - 13psi/100'
    150 gpm - 18psi/100'
    175 gpm - 25psi/100'
    200 gpm - 32psi/100'
    250 gpm - 50psi/100'
    300 gpm - 72psi/100'

    2-1/2" Hose
    125 gpm - 3 psi/100'
    150 gpm - 5 psi/100'
    175 gpm - 6 psi/100'
    200 gpm - 8 psi/100'
    250 gpm - 12.5 psi/100'
    300 gpm - 18 psi/100'

    Friction loss was calculated using the Q formula (rather than a fireground estimation method).

    As illustrated above, the frictionloss in 1-3/4" hose at its "rated flow" of 200 gpm is considerably different than the "rated flow" of 2-1/2" at 300 gpm. The limitation in the case of 2-1/2 is more the nozzle reaction for agressive handline use than the friction loss. If you are comparing 1-3/4" and 2" directly, at the friction loss reqired for 200 gpm in 1-3/4" hose (62 psi/100') you will deliver 278 gpm through the same length 2" hoseline (an increase of 39%).

    Quite some time ago I conducted time trials with 1-1/2", 1-3/4", 2", and 2-1/2" hose. The time difference for deployment of any of the three smaller sizes of hose a distance of 200' through the interior of a residential structure to a location on floor 2 with a crew of two was not significant. However, as has been observed in this thread, the firefighters found that it was a bit more work with the 2" hose (no significant difference in work was found with the 1-3/4" line and 1-1/2" line). To achieve the same time with 2-1/2" hose, the crew size need to be at leased doubled to a crew of four. Given the fact that a 200' long 2-1/2" line with either a 1-1/4" solid stream tip or substantial combination nozzle (300 gpm) only flows 8% more than a 2" handline, the 2" line has a distinct advantage in this situation (200' line length, residential configuration).

    Based on this research, I believe that the 2" line has substantial advantages with lightly staffed companies. However, as the required length of hoseline extends substantially beyond 200', the comparison with 2-1/2" hose becomes less favorable.

    If used as the "small handline" on apparatus, 2" provides a greater range of flow capability with a bit more work. It can to some extent replace large handlines if the length of line is not that long, but fades as line length is extended. Each of these sizes of hose is a good tool when used appropriately. Selection should be based on the flow rates required, staffing levels, and tactical application.

    Hope that this helps.

    Cheers,

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    Advancing the weight of the hose is the problem. My dept uses 1.75 and 2.5. Using the 15/16 and 1 1/8 inch tips flowing each at around 40 to 50 psi....More water coming out of a 2.5" line is extreamly noticable even at 40-50 psi....then dragging it while operating...again is noticable. Don't get me wrong...its not impossible, but if anyone thinks thet are going to work less with 2" at 32 psi, they're nuts. Seeing numbers is one thing....actually operating is another. And no stack tips are not needed for over 200 gpm. Its a common flow range. We flow our 2.5s with a single 1 1/8" tip at 40-50psi giving us 225 to 250gpm. And we use the same amount of men needed to operate the 2.5" as we use for the 1.75"....3...or 4 if you are a 5 man engine.

    Sounds like you have a plan...but trust me...get sample lengths and try it first. See how the men like it and if it will really benefit you. Never take the manufactures word for anything....you have to see if it works for you.
    IACOJ Member

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    Got ya, thought we were talking about just 1 3/4 attack lines up to 1" smooth bores. But i understand single tip sizes.
    Very good info on the weight/advancing it etc. I just want to have all my info collected before I help on deciding which hose to go with.
    I'm with you 100% on getting the sample hoses.

    Talk about Sales men, the dept got suckered with some smooth bore 1" nozzles that rate flow is 200gpm. Of course the sales guy was sticking a PTO on the end of the nozzle and cranking the pressure to get more gpm. End result was he was showing that you can get more then 200gpm out of their nozzle. I argued and argued that it wasn't an effective stream and breaking up before it got to it desired destination. The 1" nozzle is rated for a reason, but big numbers and little nozzle is all they saw. So we bought 8 of them

    [QUOTE=VinnieB]Advancing the weight of the hose is the problem. And no stack tips are not needed for over 200 gpm. Its a common flow range. We flow our 2.5s with a single 1 1/8" tip at 40-50psi giving us 225 to 250gpm. And we use the same amount of men needed to operate the 2.5" as we use for the 1.75"....3...or 4 if you are a 5 man engine.

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    mook13...

    Okay let me answer a few questions here about how MY volly FD uses 2 inch hose.

    The only handline sizes we have are 1 inch forestry hose for brush fires and 2 inch hose for ALL handline ops.

    Okay now some of you are saying why do they do that? Well, through testing, and actual use over at least a decade we have found that this is the best set-up for our, during the day time, very shorthanded FD. Not to disrespect anyone on here with a differing opinion, but we move this line all over the place with 2 FF's on the line. Having 3 people is a luxury for us. The biggest benefit to us is you never pull the wrong line. We can flow from 160 gpm (or less) up to 300 gpm with one size of line. From what I have seen here the 300 gpm flow is higher than most are flowing out of their 2 1/2 inch lines.

    I am not saying this is the answer for everyone. Hell if I had a 5 man engine company and several more of them coming I might advocate for change here to 1 3/4 inch and 2 1/2 inch lines. But we don't and what we do works for us.

    The nozzle we use is an Elkhart low pressure break apart nozzle that flows 200 gpm at 75 psi. This is attached to a 1 1/4 inch slug tip that we flow at 300 gpm, just over 40 psi at the tip.

    As for the friction loss table used....WOW!! That is so obsolete for modern hose as to be almost criminal. The only true way to know what hose is flowing is to use a pitot gauge on smoothbores or a flow meter for combos or smooth bores. Anything else is simply a guess, including what the manufacturers tell you their hose will flow.

    We have just recently put a brand new engine in service and we flow metered our crosslays with a calibrated flow meter. We have 2-200 foot 2 inch front bumper crosslays that flow as follows:
    160 gpm at 75 psi engine pressure
    200 gpm at 125 psi engine pressure
    300 gpm at 160 psi engine pressure
    We also have 2-300 foot 2 inch crosslyas above the pump that flow as follows:
    160 gpm at 95 psi engine pressure
    200 gpm at 145 psi engine pressure
    300 gpm at 190 psi engine pressure

    If we need to go farther than that for a hose lay we have 100 feet of 2 inch connected to a deadlay bed of 3 inch with a gated wye.

    If we need more than 300 gpm we carry an Elkhart Ram portable deluge with either a 1 3/8 inch tip or a 500 gpm at 75 psi combo nozzle on it that we can attach to a second dealay bed of 3 inch.

    Again, I am not telling anyone to do what we do. I am saying this though, it works for us and our guys actually picked 2 inch over 1 3/4 when ever we had a working structure fire. This convinced the chief that since the FF's themselves wanted the 2 inch it was the way to go.

    My suggestion is simple. Get some 2 inch hose from a vendor and try it out with the nozzle you would actually be using. Don't let me convince you it is the way to go or others convince you it is not the way to go. Try it and decide for yourself.

    Good luck because no matter what you decide someone here will tell you you are an idiot.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-28-2006 at 05:10 PM.

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    duplicate post.....
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-28-2006 at 05:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    The two guys are going to move the 1.75" faster and easier than 2 with the 2". How we operate lines (my old vollies/and current career) is different than most. We don't pencil, we don't open up then shut down, then advance. Once the line is open, it stays open, we work the line in a RAPID clockwise pattern and sweep the floor, and all the while aggressivly advancing in using a crouch (which I prefer), so to take the extra beating for a little more water that I don't need, to me seems like a waste. Especially if I have to do it 2 or 3 times in a 24 hour period. Unless the 2" is in some way lighter and more maneuverable. Like I said, if it works for you great, keep it up. I gave my experiance and reasons. A vollie house that I was in had it for 4 years, and reverted back to the 1.75" line. 2" was just not neccesary...we knew there was a second line coming...and if need be a few more. Noone is ever going to convince me otherwise. KISS...little fire, little water, Big fire, big water.

    Good Luck to ya'
    Excellent reasoning and description! We usually make the fire area, darken it substantially (or extinguish if possible), shut down and move on. It just seemed easier for us to fight that way. Agreed, if it works for either of us, Im fine with it.

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    This is really cool, i wish I found this forum earlier. I've been in the FD for 15yrs now and there is tons of info here.

    Simple question: what is the 2" and 1-3/4 maxium rated for? Is it pressure or is there gpm? take all the hydraulics, friction loss out, is there a maxium rating of GPM in each of these hoses you don't want to exceed. For some reason they are stuck on that question, we just just standard hose on our trucks

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    Mook, before anyone can tell you what they are "rated" for, you'd have to tell us which brand and model. Take a look at Snap-Tite website, www.snap-tite.com Just on their own site, you will see many varying friction losses and flows based on the individual hose.

    There is no simple 1 3/4" flows X gpms and 2 1/2" flows X gpms. Unfortunately.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    mook13...

    I am puzzled by your question of maximum flow. Why is that an issue? I have clearly shown that WE can flow 300 gpm out of the 2 inch with our 300 foot preconnect and still be under 200 psi EP. What this tell me is we could flow more water OR that same 300 gpm at least another 100 feet if we wanted to have a 400 foot preconnect.

    I guess I would ask those people with the max flow question what nozzle they want to use and what flow they expect. No matter how you slice it the 2 inch will ALWAYS flow more than the 1 3/4 inch line OR flow the same amount a heck of a lot farther than the 1 3/4 inch hose.

    Again, borrow hose from a vendor, if they are seriously interested in your business they will gladly lend it to you, put the nozzle on you intend to use and flow the lines. Obviously if you are only going to put a nozzle capable of flowing only 125 to 200 gpm on the line 1 3/4 will work just fine for 200 foot preconnects and depending on the hose maybe even a 300 foot preconnect.

    A little know fact about most of the high flow 1 3/4 inch lines is that they are in fact actually closer to 2 inch than 1 3/4 inch. Some measuring 1 7/8 or greater ID. So who is fooling who with that?

    Good luck,

    FyredUp

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    We did similar testing between our 1 3/4" and 2" hose as most of the rest of you. We typically have a 3 person crew. In light of that, we went with the least amount of work to put the most amount of water on the fire.

    We have an 1 3/4" with a 15/16 tip on it that we can get about 175 GPM @ 130 psi. (This is usually the first line we pull off the truck for "routine" fires)This line has a great reach, penetration and knockdown ability. It will put out most fires. We also have a 2" hose with an 1 1/8" tip on our engine. We are pushing 250 to 260 GPM with almost the same amount of back pressure as the 1 3/4". The only difference was the weight of the water in the hose. It was very useable for a two person attack team. We use this line when there is a large volume of fire showing on arrival. The theory behind this line is a quick hit with 2 people on the line flowing 250 GPM plus saves a lot of extra work later. (Again using the "as little work" possible theory of sometimes a little hard work to begin with saves a lot of moderate work later, because this line is more work than an 1 3/4")

    Like someone mentioned before, if you need any higher flows than that, you should be looking at some form of portable monitor or a lot more manpower on your truck in order to move up to 2 1/2" handlines. If you typically have a 5 or 6 person engine company with required fire flows in the 250 to 300 GPM range, then by all means, go to the 2 1/2" hose, it will give you more options fighting fire. But if you are like us, there is too much of a weight and useability difference between 2" & 2 1/2" to justify having anything bigger than the 2" hose.

    Hartin had it right, in all the tests that we did, there was enough of a difference to justify the 2" hose vs. 1 3/4", but it really comes down to your department's mindset, manpower, and how you train to use it. You can make just about any size hose work for you! Just know how to use it to get the desired effect.

    I hope this makes sense to you,
    Mark

  21. #21
    firefighter7160
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    Talking What?

    Do a preplan of your area. If you need a more water go with a big line. But the best thing to do is to get about 150ft of that 2inch line. Play with it. Take it in a building and around the walls. Take it up a flight of stairs. Or hell do a live burn. Alwas test it yourself befor you spend the money. If it works good for you go with it. My dept. has large fire load areas in are city, but we make due with 1 3/4 lines. If you need more water pull a 2 1/2. We keep perconnect 2 1/2 inch lines on all Companies. But we know how good are training is and that we can take care of some big fires with a 1 3/4 inch line. Its really not about the hose, its more about the guy at the nozzle.


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    Our volunteer dept. put 2" on one of our crosslays on our first out engine to see if it was something we wanted to switch to, after about 18 months we love it and are making plans to purchase more hose to switch atleast one crosslays on each engine and have a few hundred on the rack for spare, but just because it works good for us doesn't mean it will be right for you. You may want to try one crosslay for a while to see if you like it, then you waste all that money if you don't.

  23. #23
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    Thumbs down So

    If you got a dumb@ss at the end of the line, that cant find the seat of the fire. Because the only fire he has seen is whats on the BBQ grill, You might aswell bring a 2 1/2 in the house. Show that fire some real GPM's and do as much water damage as you can. Your going to have a lot of open lots in your city..... Ya thats what we want to do, more damage...

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    I have not tried 2" line, so I cannot discuss its advantages or disadvantages, but I am a huge advocate for getting the most out of your handline, no matter what size. We can flow 250gpm @ 50psi NP and 220psi EP with an 1.75" 200ft line. When I hear most people talk about going to 2" line they explain they are going to get over 200gpm. Flow that with your 1.75"! Like FyredUp says, they are using 300gpm. That would probably place our EP too high and we wouldnt be able to get that out of a 1.75". We would need to pull the 2.5" then, but take advantage of what you have.

    The discussion started by asking what was the maximum flow. The maximum flow should be what your personnel can handle in the conditions they use the line. If the guys are using the line crouched most of the time, find out what they can flow and still manage the nozzle: 185, 200, 250 gpm? No matter what size line or how you attack the fire, flow the most gpm you can.

    This crap about water damage is a training issue. When you darken the fire down (the more gpms flowing, the quicker the knockdown) shut off the line and reevaluate! I would rather flow 250gpm for 10 seconds (40 gallons)than flow 150gpm for 45 seconds (90 gallons). On top of that, I'd rather my guys have the larger flow available if something goes wrong than not have it. I dont give a shart about water damage if it starts hitting the fan.

    The other issue brought up was whether the 2" will make it easier for the nozzleman to handle. This is an issue of nozzle reaction. Nozzle reaction is determined by flow and psi, not by hose size. A 250gpm @ 50psi nozzle on a 2" line will react the same as the same nozzle on a 1.75" line.
    Last edited by Spencer534; 09-30-2006 at 08:36 AM.

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    FDNY was the first ones to come up with 1 3/4..then they were using 2 1/2 for everything and others were using either 1 1/2 or 2 1/2..they found 1 3/4 to have a good flow while still being very manageable..they dont have manpower issues so im assuming they just as easily could've used 2'' which im sure when they went with 1 3/4 they would've looked at teh idea of 2''...in my opinion if your running 2 1/2 and 1 3/4 you've got a good base to work from..2'' and 2 1/2'' are becoming too close to eachother

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