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  1. #1
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    Angry Problems with our Admin., how to remove them, HELP

    We have a Admin. who is in his 70's, bull headed, wants to run everything, won't let Fire and Ambulance Chief run their own dept. Wants to decide where to store truck equipment, what to add to our trucks and run the radio from the station during fires, control who goes and what to drive. If you go against him you pay for it in the long run. It's time to replace

    Question: How do we or can we get him removed from office. Keep in mind, he's paid, he has 2 buddies on the Board, one is the President of the Board, so he has the board loaded, some what. PLEASE HELP


  2. #2
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    You can wait until you get a visit from the Department of Labor and they find alot of problems with your recordkeeping, maintenance logs, no anti-frag system for filling bottles and all the other stuff that they will find. Then he won't want to run things anymore because it will be his *** in the sling. Oh, he'll try to blame the chief, but you won't let that happen, will you?

    OR

    You get rid of all three by having them elected rather than appointed.

    CR
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  3. #3
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    Simple solution, get the media to be there and have everyone at a meeting turn in their badges and pagers.

    Show how and where he is screwing up. Make apoint of him running the show saying what goes and the like, this not only breeds bad blood its unsafe!

    I feel for you brother we have the same problem with a officer here.Plays favorites and has made the comment of I am going to make everyone leave cause they are mad ( notn those words but exact words would be banned as this is a family forum)


    Good luck

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfdtruckie12
    Simple solution, get the media to be there and have everyone at a meeting turn in their badges and pagers.

    Show how and where he is screwing up. Make apoint of him running the show saying what goes and the like, this not only breeds bad blood its unsafe!

    I feel for you brother we have the same problem with a officer here.Plays favorites and has made the comment of I am going to make everyone leave cause they are mad ( notn those words but exact words would be banned as this is a family forum)

    Good luck
    bfdtruckie:
    I appreciate your passion, but throwing the badges and pagers on the table could have a serious backlash from the community. It will appear that the firefighters are deserting them and they will take it quite personally.
    Also: the trustees would more than likely accept the resignations and that will send the fire department even further in the other direction.
    No; the fire department needs to band together, but instead of threatening to quit, they should instead maybe ask for the trustees resignations.
    Just so you know, I was on our department for 22 years; 14 as chief. I had problems with our trustees. We passed a referendum to have them elected. It passed and we elected trustees who we supported.
    Today, I am president of our board of trustees. I can tell you that elected trustees seem to be held to a higher standard than appointed trustees for some strange reason. I know that when voters in your district elect their trustees, there is buy in, ownership and a feeling that they are stakeholders in how the fire district is ran.
    When trustees are appointed, too many things can go wrong. Cronyism is the most serious of the "wrongs". It takes an act of God to remove an appointed trustee. Literally.
    When trustees are elected, they can be voted in and they can be voted out.
    And THAT is how they are held accountable. Appointed trustees can continue on, tearing out the heart and soul of the department and unless they commit a serious crime, they can stay in as a trustee until they choose to step down. It's a terrible process for selecting trustees.
    It is my hope that every fire district in the state of Illinois goes to elected trustees.
    In many districts, it's not the firefighters holding back progress; it's the trustees.
    And that is the sad part.
    Keep the badges and pagers and get rid of the trustees.
    CR
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 10-08-2006 at 09:02 PM. Reason: gwammar
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  5. #5
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    Wink Wisdom of the aged. Oops, ages, that is!

    Dear Chief Reason,
    You are, indeed, what your handle implies. Just thought I'd like to toss your way an 'atta boy', and let you know that your sage advice has continuously brought calm clarity to many a heated topic on here over the past years. I've been silently following your posts for a long time but never directly entered into the fray on your topics, or offered an opinion on any advice from you, until now. It's always a pleasure to see your inputs, here.
    -Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptnMatt
    Dear Chief Reason,
    You are, indeed, what your handle implies. Just thought I'd like to toss your way an 'atta boy', and let you know that your sage advice has continuously brought calm clarity to many a heated topic on here over the past years. I've been silently following your posts for a long time but never directly entered into the fray on your topics, or offered an opinion on any advice from you, until now. It's always a pleasure to see your inputs, here.
    -Matt
    Wow, thats going to swell his head. Back on subject, I need somthing clarified, is this a city adm. or a trustee. Kinda reads like it could be either.

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    Good points Chief, I was looking for the "shock" value for this guy. When the world is against you you know instead of punting go straight up the gut!

    I would love to see our trustees be voted on by the community (but RI county is all appointed it seems) and like you say if elected the community seems to say " this is our choice we support htese people" Plus it makes it easier to remove a fixture member that has lost touch or even worse is like the one described by the above.


    I for one would sign any petition to make the trustees a voted on position for my area fire department. Just so the message would be sent that hey you better do your job and do it right.


    Yes the community may backlash at that and the resignations may be taken seriously, so how about a vote amongst the memebers of no confidence? WOuld that be a better way? It would at least show there is a problem to the community at large and not cause the backlash of a mass resignation ( somehow I think better after no sleep and oral surgery go figure)and or any bad blood between the community and the back step firefighters. At least if you present the facts in that way ( and I mean all the facts) to the public and say look we are going to continue to serve you no matter what , but this situation is making it not only difficult but dangerous for us and you the public.

    All in all bounce the ideas off your people to see what they think ( plus here as well ) but I do hope you get your situation resolved. Is not good to live in a house divided let alone work in the conditions we work in. Stay safe.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfdtruckie12
    Good points Chief, I was looking for the "shock" value for this guy. When the world is against you you know instead of punting go straight up the gut!

    I would love to see our trustees be voted on by the community (but RI county is all appointed it seems) and like you say if elected the community seems to say " this is our choice we support htese people" Plus it makes it easier to remove a fixture member that has lost touch or even worse is like the one described by the above.


    I for one would sign any petition to make the trustees a voted on position for my area fire department. Just so the message would be sent that hey you better do your job and do it right.


    Yes the community may backlash at that and the resignations may be taken seriously, so how about a vote amongst the memebers of no confidence? WOuld that be a better way? It would at least show there is a problem to the community at large and not cause the backlash of a mass resignation ( somehow I think better after no sleep and oral surgery go figure)and or any bad blood between the community and the back step firefighters. At least if you present the facts in that way ( and I mean all the facts) to the public and say look we are going to continue to serve you no matter what , but this situation is making it not only difficult but dangerous for us and you the public.

    All in all bounce the ideas off your people to see what they think ( plus here as well ) but I do hope you get your situation resolved. Is not good to live in a house divided let alone work in the conditions we work in. Stay safe.
    Now, you're talkin'.
    It's crazy, but in most communities, people don't realize the constant struggle that a fire department has to go through to provide service. They never hear about all of the squabbles between departments and boards, because the firefighters don't like to talk about it (too depressing) and the trustees tell everyone that things are great and there will be no increase in taxes. Public thinks that things are good because they see a fire department that comes to their aid EVERY TIME!
    And it's the face that we want the public to see.
    If you can show them THAT; that is, how good your service is NOW, ask them "how good do you think it would be if we weren't fighting our trustees to provide you with service?" That will open the door for your department that might bring positive change to you; one way or the other. If it's not irrevocibly broken, then it will be your trustee's "come to Jesus".
    But if you're convinced it isn't going to get better with the way that it is, then it's time to circulate the petitions to have the question on the next ballot.
    CR
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    Default wow !!!!!is it wonderlake?

    wow i thought you were all talking about the wonderlake ill fire dept for a min.you dont have any problems like them.they have a chief who is so 2 faced its not even funny.hes your best friend when you have something he wants but othere wise he cant remember your name.the best part is all members have a differant set of rules depending on how you are related or who you are.and it is very blatant.like his own son who is a pain in the but to everyone but nothing is done about it.took him 2 times to pass emt -b and he is now working on his 3 time to pass medic.gotta wonder whos paying for all this. and its all a little secret to all the members. can you tell?what chances are other members missing do to this?also in the dept sogs it states you must be a medic within 1 year of being promoted,how longs it been John,2-3 years?still an officer?wonder if you werent the chiefs little boy if you would still hold the title.im sure. or if a lawsuit from all the members who didnt put in for it as emts and got passed up for it would help.but it all goes back to the general public,if they only knew how things were done there.or the other thing of members who get hurt in their daily jobs and are on workmans comp and cant respond.but thats only for the blue shirts to i guess because the chief who works full time for addison and the deputy who works full time for bartlett both show up and still run calls do training and work pop shifts,but im sure its all imagined.right it is.

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    Jack, Calm down we don't want you stroking out. The thing that most people including the public don't realize is that as a firefighter your first amendment rights are not what you think they are. If you talk about safety issues (and I know Wonder Lake has some issue's) but it can get you in a ton of trouble especially if you're on a fulltime department. Something like what jack just did can be considered insubordination and even slander if there is not actual proof. The thing and Jack I feel your pain is that northern IL. is still either a bunch of farmers who have been with the department for 50 years and just don't understand the modern demand of the fire and EMS services or the old time chiefs don't keep them informed and back to my earlier statement I would think it would be considered insubordination if you bypassed the chief and went directly to the board. So the big issue is (as stated earlier) is to try and get legislation for all FPDís to be governed by elected boards.

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    So the big issue is (as stated earlier) is to try and get legislation for all FPDís to be governed by elected boards.
    Yes; pass a referendum to have them elected.
    CR
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    Default just chillin!!

    im not stroking out ,yet!!im about ready to throw the towel in on it.nothing works here at all.no one cares or listens unless it helps them out.i could go on forever about the way things are done and handled here.but i dont think anyone really wants to hear more.do they?just ask nicely.when you step back and take a look at the dept in awhole it all starts at the top with our [elected trustees] all the way down to a captain.its kinda a weird how theres supposedlly not a problem here but just about every officer has stepped down or quit.the 2 that didnt are somehow captains now.we lost alot of great guys in the last few years.miss them alot.as for my first amendment rights,i didnt really worry about that when you have a chief that screams at you and i quote"you dont know who your fing with"thats professional indeed if i might say.wow and this is the guy we all call chief!!but anyway we shall all see what becomes of this giant heap of...........

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by userjack
    im not stroking out ,yet!!im about ready to throw the towel in on it.nothing works here at all.no one cares or listens unless it helps them out.i could go on forever about the way things are done and handled here.but i dont think anyone really wants to hear more.do they?just ask nicely.when you step back and take a look at the dept in awhole it all starts at the top with our [elected trustees] all the way down to a captain.its kinda a weird how theres supposedlly not a problem here but just about every officer has stepped down or quit.the 2 that didnt are somehow captains now.we lost alot of great guys in the last few years.miss them alot.as for my first amendment rights,i didnt really worry about that when you have a chief that screams at you and i quote"you dont know who your fing with"thats professional indeed if i might say.wow and this is the guy we all call chief!!but anyway we shall all see what becomes of this giant heap of...........
    With all due respect, you aren't giving us a whole lot. You don't lose your first amendment rights as long as you don't reveal personal information about others. You can identify the problems of your department without naming your department. That is done through PMs and emails. But I have some remarks for you.
    I have a hard time believing ANY situation can elicit a response like "there is NOTHING we can do". I won't accept that. If someone knows what the problem is, then they can do something about it. If they have the motivation and the will to change something, they can. It might be small in the beginning, but a "beginning" is a start.
    Not everybody is into something simply for themselves. "No one cares"? That takes in a lot of people. I can't connect with a comment like that. I know that there are plenty of people who care. Either you haven't found them or they haven't found you yet. But, they are out there. Do you care? If you do, then your statement is not true. If you don't care, then you are not everyone.
    You "could go on forever" about how things are done and handled, but you didn't even start to tell us. When you are faced with problems, general comments followed by general observations, in general, won't even scratch the surface of a solution.
    And you're right; leadership starts at the top. Trustees, like myself, cannot set goals, whether they are fiscal goals or training goals or can even set the tone or identity of the department, unless WE, the trustees, provides our fire department with the tools. ALL OF THE TOOLS. Classes, equipment, a vision are all tools necessary to succeed. And throw in mental/moral support when there is miscommunication that spawns misunderstanding. If the department is healthy, then the little squabbles will pretty heal themselves. But if there is much discourse, then the little squabbles will feel like major, negative events.
    You state that you have had good officers leave the department, but you were sketchy about why. Many good officers on departments that don't share their vision will leave out of frustration. Sometimes, they feel that they aren't supported by the leaders and other times, they feel like they are spinning their wheels with members who don't want to train or won't take it seriously, so it could be for any number of reasons or a combination of them.
    If your description of your chief is accurate, then, he doesn't know who he is messing with, because you don't treat people like that; especially people that you want something from like effort, respect and continuous improvement.
    I have known many who wore a white helmet who came by it through a process of elimination, default, popularity contest, nepotism and appointment.
    And if they have the best interests of their men and their community at heart, they won't accept the position if they aren't prepared to lead by effort and lead by example. If you believe that you will make all of the right decisions, then you aren't the one for the job. You have to be willing to accept the fact that you are still learning, but have been given an extraordinary opportunity to teach what you have learned and to learn from the ones that you teach. At the end of the day, if your department is making progress, then it's going to be a very rewarding relationship all the way around.
    I don't mean to lecture. I wish I could flip a switch and make it better for you, because I worry about firefighters who think that they have no choices.
    Don't believe for a minute that we must accept the things that we cannot change. EVERYTHING is fair game. Status quo sucks. Make a decision; make a difference.
    You should be happy that you at least care enough to share your thoughts and you triggered a response in someone else, because that's not easy alot of the time.
    Take care of yourself.
    CR
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    thanks there chief reason.its nice to hear another side of it.we need trustees like you!!!!maybe i am saying it wrong after all.we have had the same trustees for at least the last 5-6 years.time to go?whats one to do when someone has a problem and goes up the chain of command and finally to the trustees and gets a stupid look as they tell you so.this brings up another very good story about 2 firman that had a problem on a fire scene.fireman a was told to get a fan from the engine he turns and tels fireman b to go get it.fireman b says he can hes the engineer on the engine.fireman a starts telling him all kinds of choice words and walks away to get a fan.as he is walking past the fireman b enigneer he starts again telling him this is a fing fan are you a moron or what.fireman has now walked away 2 times already.about 20 mins later here comes fireman a to strat with fireman b again.fireman b gets off the panel ,walks all the way around the back of the engine where a crew is rebedding the 2.5.one being an officer.fireman a follows starts yelling and screaming again at fireman b fireman b looks up at the officer on the hosebed and says you better put a stop to this.he just luaghs and says chalk it up to expierence.fireman b turns to walk away as fireman a gets right in his face and starts yelling agin.fireman b now has had enough of it so he pushes him and walks away back to the pump panel.we have a meeting to talk about the call afterwards and firamn a starts agin in there.nothing said.a lt says i want to see them both in my office now.they all walk in and now somehow someway theres another lt there.for god knows why.fireman b sits on top of san empty desk as the lt say what is your problem.as soon as he opens his mouth fireman a starts again.it soon turns into fireman a threatening fireman b about being arrested and sued.fireman b now says alot of good words to him and the firman a charges at fireman b and starts to fight.both of the officers break it up.fieman a runs out of the office and starts screaming that fireman b is out of control and someone better do something soon.sure are alot of threats from firemana to b ,wonder what would have happened if fireman b was as ignorant as a?anyway about a few days go by fireman b drives by the fire house and the chief,the captains and fireman a car are all there.never once was fireman b asked his side.the best part is about a day later fireman b gets arrested for assault on freman a!!!!!then fireman b is suspened from the dept.for what?was fireman a?hell no.its been about 2-3 years and he has still not.nothing zero.back to the story,in the mean time we get new gear ,everyone but fireman b we also got new radios,everyone but fireman b..also we have our awards banquet,fireman b is not allowed to go.fireman a is.talked to the trustees about it.was told fireman b is suspened for charges of a felony against fireman b.it is not a felony when both are fireman.talked to chief and turns into screaming match. chief threatens to have have fireman b arrested for being in HIS FIREHOUSE !!!!! how do you tell a tax payer he cant be in a tax supported building let alone tell a memeber of his own dept he cant be there?you have to remember fireman b was suspened for alomost 10 months while this went to court do to the fact he was not going to run and hide for standing up for himself.he never did get anything in writing from anyone.about anything.one day his gear is gone,then he is told to turn his pager in.the best part is it was all thrown out of court anyway.fireman b goes the the chief to tell him and ask for his gear and pager back but is told no again.chief goes on to tell him that now there is paper work for fireman b to sign before he is alowed to back.no way in hell you wont give nothing in writing but he is supposed to sign stuff for you!!yeah that will happen. wonder when the other one will have reprimand?so chief reason whats your take on that one?how or what should have been done ?the best part is fireman b is almost 3 times the size of fireman a!!!but he just kept walking away until he had enough.talk about a lawsuit if it would have gotten alot farther out of control.chief reason you asked for more of the stories so here is one to start you off with.more to come.thanks everyone.

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    userjack, Please let me suggest something. We'll be able to better understand your arguments and case if we can read it better. If you'd do us the favor of putting a capitol letter at the beginning of a sentence. An occasional break into a new paragraph would be greatly appreciated too.

    I got so confused by the fireman a and fireman b thing. I wasn't sure who was who anymore.

    With the not being allowed in a building thing. It really doesn't matter if you're a tax payer and it's a tax supported building. If you are suspended then you are not allowed on property and you can be arrested for trespassing. I know we do that to members that we kick out of the department (atleast my old department down in WV). I also know this from experience when I was given the boot years ago in VA. It sucks, but it's the law. Just because you are a tax payer doesn't give you any right to enter any tax supported building.
    Fir Na Tine
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    Default sorry

    yes after i sent it and reread it it is alittle hard.Anyway as for not being allowed in the building do to being suspeneded. Doesnt or shouldnt it all be in writing?How can anything be inforced when the cops get there?What leg does the chief have to stand on?Not arguing just asking.

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    My unprofessional knowledge of the law is that it does not have to be explicit that you are trespassing to be trespassing. i.e. you do not have to be told that you are trespassing to be charged with it if you are in someones house you have no business being in. So in this case the act of being suspended would/should/might be enough implication that you are not allowed on premisis. As far as what leg the chief has to stand on when the cops get there; once again my unprofessional knowledge of the law is that it's kind of a master-of-domain thingy. Kind of like if it's your house and you kick your kid out and they come back you can have them charged with trespassing because it's YOUR house. As the chief of a department I'd be willing to bet that most cops and anyone else in the legal industry (lawyers and judges) would agree that it's HIS house.

    Back to the orginial thread. Clarkx3, if you'd be so kind as to pass along some more specific information to us. Like is this person a trustee of a volunteer department, or a board member on the fire commission, or anything else that you might have as a governing body. Also how is this person(s) put into power? Election (and if so, by who? the members of the department or the citizens of the area?), Appointment (once again, by who?), or something I've never considered.
    Fir Na Tine
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    Quote Originally Posted by userjack
    thanks there chief reason.its nice to hear another side of it.we need trustees like you!!!!maybe i am saying it wrong after all.we have had the same trustees for at least the last 5-6 years.time to go?whats one to do when someone has a problem and goes up the chain of command and finally to the trustees and gets a stupid look as they tell you so.this brings up another very good story about 2 firman that had a problem on a fire scene.fireman a was told to get a fan from the engine he turns and tels fireman b to go get it.fireman b says he can hes the engineer on the engine.fireman a starts telling him all kinds of choice words and walks away to get a fan.as he is walking past the fireman b enigneer he starts again telling him this is a fing fan are you a moron or what.fireman has now walked away 2 times already.about 20 mins later here comes fireman a to strat with fireman b again.fireman b gets off the panel ,walks all the way around the back of the engine where a crew is rebedding the 2.5.one being an officer.fireman a follows starts yelling and screaming again at fireman b fireman b looks up at the officer on the hosebed and says you better put a stop to this.he just luaghs and says chalk it up to expierence.fireman b turns to walk away as fireman a gets right in his face and starts yelling agin.fireman b now has had enough of it so he pushes him and walks away back to the pump panel.we have a meeting to talk about the call afterwards and firamn a starts agin in there.nothing said.a lt says i want to see them both in my office now.they all walk in and now somehow someway theres another lt there.for god knows why.fireman b sits on top of san empty desk as the lt say what is your problem.as soon as he opens his mouth fireman a starts again.it soon turns into fireman a threatening fireman b about being arrested and sued.fireman b now says alot of good words to him and the firman a charges at fireman b and starts to fight.both of the officers break it up.fieman a runs out of the office and starts screaming that fireman b is out of control and someone better do something soon.sure are alot of threats from firemana to b ,wonder what would have happened if fireman b was as ignorant as a?anyway about a few days go by fireman b drives by the fire house and the chief,the captains and fireman a car are all there.never once was fireman b asked his side.the best part is about a day later fireman b gets arrested for assault on freman a!!!!!then fireman b is suspened from the dept.for what?was fireman a?hell no.its been about 2-3 years and he has still not.nothing zero.back to the story,in the mean time we get new gear ,everyone but fireman b we also got new radios,everyone but fireman b..also we have our awards banquet,fireman b is not allowed to go.fireman a is.talked to the trustees about it.was told fireman b is suspened for charges of a felony against fireman b.it is not a felony when both are fireman.talked to chief and turns into screaming match. chief threatens to have have fireman b arrested for being in HIS FIREHOUSE !!!!! how do you tell a tax payer he cant be in a tax supported building let alone tell a memeber of his own dept he cant be there?you have to remember fireman b was suspened for alomost 10 months while this went to court do to the fact he was not going to run and hide for standing up for himself.he never did get anything in writing from anyone.about anything.one day his gear is gone,then he is told to turn his pager in.the best part is it was all thrown out of court anyway.fireman b goes the the chief to tell him and ask for his gear and pager back but is told no again.chief goes on to tell him that now there is paper work for fireman b to sign before he is alowed to back.no way in hell you wont give nothing in writing but he is supposed to sign stuff for you!!yeah that will happen. wonder when the other one will have reprimand?so chief reason whats your take on that one?how or what should have been done ?the best part is fireman b is almost 3 times the size of fireman a!!!but he just kept walking away until he had enough.talk about a lawsuit if it would have gotten alot farther out of control.chief reason you asked for more of the stories so here is one to start you off with.more to come.thanks everyone.
    All's I can say about the fireman a/fireman b fiasco is that the incident commander failed miserably if this was going on and didn't stop it.
    Same deal back at the station. You interview them SEPARATELY and not together. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
    If someone is suspended and as part of that suspension is not allowed on fire department property, then you can be arrested for trespassing.
    Wow.
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  19. #19
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    Feb 2003
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    This is getting better all the time. I stated it before, and now NJ wants it to, paid or volunteer? City adm or trustees? Sounds like a break down of the whole command system. Where's the member support for A or B?

  20. #20
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    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    6

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    Thanks for all the answers here.It is really nice to hear from other points like I said before.As for the break down of the command at the fire scene and back at the station ,the best part is that at both were ,the chief, a captain and 3-4 lt.As for memeber support most if not all of the blue shirts were behind fireman b.Along with 2 whites.nothing was done tho.When it was brought up to the chief he started screaming again that he is the chief and he says what goes, end of the story.Thats a leader if i may say so myself.Dont listen just sit back and dictate.Just imagine the recourse if it would have realy gone all the way to trail.Considering firemans b lawyer wanted it to. And have the whole dept ordered into court.considering .according to a lawyer again that the members would have been on dept time and they would have been paid by the dept for thier time in court.Then this would have all been out in the public eye for sure. the best part of it is that firmean a has a history of doing this stuff here and at his full time dept.As for being arrested in the firehouse without anything being in writing.according to a lawyer that would have been the worst thing that could of happened for the dept, and chief anyway.It would have been awesome for fireman b .If it would have been un founded the chief would once again be asking for a lawsuit.Its just to bad to for a normal person to fight it it is money out of thier own pocket but for the chief to do it its the taxpayers money.Im just tired of all the time hearing its someone elses fault.From what Im hearing ,seeing ,and writing it all points right back at the top. Do you all also know that yet to this day it has been 2-3 years and not one trusttee or the chief has asked what happened from fireman b.Thats nice isnt it? How many people on here from around town know about our chief sueing the dept a few years ago?He was going to be fired for not doing his job so he sued.It was in all the papers.He was assitant chief back then.But it was before my time on .Very interesting isnt it?Or how many jobs as a medic he himself has been fired from.And this is our leader?Or as a captain ignored the chief we had.Wouldnt even ask to do things like take the engine to someones wedding in Mchenry, just did it.But now were suppose to listen to him.The one who had no respect for authority.

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