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  1. #21
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    I say place a uniformed, certified police officer in the schools - Want to really pi** in the tax-payers corn-flakes ?......Make this an overtime detail for the police officers in which school taxes have to be raised to support this. Once the parents start to see that this an outrageous amount of tax money maybe it'll make 'em start acting like parents, disipline their kids, and keep them from being thugs to begin with.

    Another good part of having uniformed officers is a case like happened in Lancaster, Pa last week......This tragedy probably wasn't preventable considering the location but with stationed officers in our schools violence among the little bullies, and outsider violence can and will be reduced. - Some Middle and High Schools are like small towns which can even be said for a small percentage of elementry schools in our nation. They should be protected as though they were.

    I feel safer and would consider home schooling my kids.


  2. #22
    Forum Member BruenRescue2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    Just because you hate President Bush, or Republicans, or whatever your particular issue with life is, keep an open mind. Maybe if you stayed informed, or watched some news, or read more about this particular legislators motive, you wouldnít be calling him retarded. In fact, the most retarded thing I have heard recently, is you belittling mentally challenged people; be careful who you insult, or what names you use, you never know who will be insulted. I would also encourage you to look at where this legislator is from.
    His only goal is to stir debate to prompt an increase in school security, as well as safety. So far he has done more for that than anyone else has. Maybe something will get done, remember, no one wanted pilots armed, either.

    To imply that teachers arenít able to handle the additional responsibility, or arenít capable is an insult to teachers. I also know several teachers who have served in the military, and as a result are quite familiar with weapons, and more capable with them than some police officers.
    Now that I think of it, the only retarded idea, is your post.


    First off, I didn't call anybody a retard. I attacked the idea, not the person so if you're insulted by that then you need to grow a thicker skin. Second, I never said teachers were incapable of handling this responsibility, my point is that most teachers won't want the responsibility. Teachers bitch when they have to monitor the halls in between classes, you think they're going to be ok with having to go through all the extra training and work that comes with being armed? Teachers get paid to teach, not to get in a gun battle with a psycho kid on a rampage. This bill is just another example of a shallow superficial attempt at trying to solve a problem. The issue here isn't that people can't defend themselves when a kid goes on a rampage, the real issue is that the kid should never even get into that situation in the first place. There are deep psychological and social problems that cause these incidents, and the focus should be on addressing those problems instead of saying "to hell with it, it's ok that these kids go on rampages because we have 100 armed teachers in school that will cut him in half with self-defense weapons if he acts out." The focus should be on identifying the kids with problems, and stopping the situation before it ever happens. When you've got a kid shooting up a school, it's too late, you've lost either way. Your armed brigade of teachers isn't going to stop the severe emotional trauma that the students will have to carry for the rest of their lives. Same goes for the teacher or teachers that had to pull the trigger on one of their students. This bill misses the point completely, and thats why it's ridiculous.
    New York State EMT-B

  3. #23
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    Default what if...

    ...the students or town knew teachers were packing. then if someone snapped, the first thing theyd do is go after the teachers. maybe before negotiations. theyd be targeted to quickly. if they get guns, theyd need vests and helmets too.

  4. #24
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Who pays for range time to keep them proficient?

    Who pays for the ammunition.

    Oh the Headlines, the despair.

    Jonny pulls imitation .22 pistol. Teacher kills 10 with .45 magnum. Misses Jonny completely.

    Yup, thats about all folks.

    Most people in the military would be better off throwing the damn pistol at the bad guy than trying to shoot them in a stress situation.

    And you are asking teachers to be intelligent (No offense to StayBack500Feet, wherever he is).
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    Doesnt seem to be the kids shooting up the schools as of late.
    No,it's adults with problems that their therapist didn't see.
    I must break the mold:I've got problems,I've got firearms and other weapons.But when I want to solve them,I don't even think of reaching for the key to the gun rack.
    Imagine that.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    This was discussed on NPR yesterday. One good point brought up is that even if you have an LEO in the school, if they're in a stationary position, maning a metal detector for example, all the badguy has to do is get the jump on them and they have open access to the rest of the facility. Having an LEO "patrolling" makes it a little harder, but it would still be pretty easy to get the jump on 'em.

    I don't like the idea of arming Teachers either. They're not cops, they don't have the physical training (range time) required to shoot accurately, and they probably won't have the mental state of mind to pull the trigger when they need to. Teaching is hard enough without throwing more responsibility on them that they weren't trained to handle.

    On the other hand, arming the Teachers may make it easier to Teach... "I know what you're thinking,'was it answer A, or answer B'? You've got to ask yourself one question, Do you feel lucky? Well, Do ya'.. Punk?"

    Unless schools turn into prisons, total security is impossible. As was said above, a determined individual with nothing to loose will always find a way in. I think one factor in why the number of incidents is increasing is the increased media coverage/swarm that occurs. People/kids now know they can get attention by doing it and they've seen the media circus that results. Most of the time that is their desired goal, whether they realize it or not.

  7. #27
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    What about the teachers who object to having anything to do with firearms? Do they then lose the jobs that they have had for the past 20 years?
    Off the top of my head I cant think of a school shooting in Australia. Our last major shooting spree was 10 years ago after which we made it very hard for people to own guns; further we banned many types of deadlier guns.
    I know you yanks dont like hearing it but it works for the rest of the world...
    Only problem is that you guys have too many guns so its too late to do anything about it. Why do you continue to sell handguns to people? At least make that illegal so that if you have gun weilding maniacs they cant conceal their weapon until its too late; give people a chance to notice the gun and call the cops.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  8. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber KevinFFVFD's Avatar
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    i agree that some measures should be taken to heighten awareness and security in schools. but i dont think it would be a good idea to allow a teacher to arm themselves. where i live, most of the schools have police officers ( or resource officers ) assigned to the school. they are armed and have full arrest powers. some other schools hire private security guards. my school was a small catholic school, and we only had one police officer assigned for about 3 weeks to our school after the shooting at Columbine occured. i just hate that these days that it is getting so bad in the schools to were teachers must arm themselves. thats a really good leason to teach kids these days, that you cant even go to school without being around violence and guns. what next??? the national guard

  9. #29
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    Here's an idea that my commie pinko liberal teacher sister posited:have the parents raise their children to know right from wrong.That's THEIR job.Hers is to teach them readin','ritin' and 'rithmetic.
    I've been driving an ice cream truck this summer and some of the kids are always brought by their parents to the curb and reminded to say"Please" and "Thank you" when getting ice cream and other kids,some as young as 5 or 6 are flashing what I "think" are gang signs.I've been living in Kentucky for 8 years and have only recently returned to my home town so I don't know for sure.
    This is happening in the same neighborhoods as the folks teaching their kids how to speak to adults so it's not like I am having to go to different areas of town to see this.
    Even though I had no respect for the principal and vice principal at school because they never asked for my side before deciding "He's been in fights before,he must be the instigator here",I knew not to think of taking a swing at them or going to my Dad's gun closet to get revenge.
    When there are fights in schools that start despite the presence of teachers,it shows that kids aren't learning to respect their elders.
    They need to before someone decides,like John Wayne,to teach them respect for their betters.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattyV
    What about the teachers who object to having anything to do with firearms? Do they then lose the jobs that they have had for the past 20 years?
    Off the top of my head I cant think of a school shooting in Australia. Our last major shooting spree was 10 years ago after which we made it very hard for people to own guns; further we banned many types of deadlier guns.
    I know you yanks dont like hearing it but it works for the rest of the world...
    Only problem is that you guys have too many guns so its too late to do anything about it. Why do you continue to sell handguns to people? At least make that illegal so that if you have gun weilding maniacs they cant conceal their weapon until its too late; give people a chance to notice the gun and call the cops.
    Isn't the rate of violent crime at a record high in the Uk, Canada, and in Australia? And isn't there still alot of gun crime?

    Look at Israel and Switzerland, countires in which every citizen is trained and allowed to care guns. Their (other than terrorist incidents) violent crime rates aren't very high. Why it's not a question of "IF" someone is packing it's a question of "WHAT"


    IF YOU CRIMINALIZE GUNS ONLY THE CRIMINALS WILL HAVE GUNS.
    FOR HE WHO SERVES HIS FELLOWS IS OF ALL HIS FELLOWS GREATEST

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  11. #31
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redneckemt
    Isn't the rate of violent crime at a record high in the Uk, Canada, and in Australia? And isn't there still alot of gun crime?

    Look at Israel and Switzerland, countires in which every citizen is trained and allowed to care guns. Their (other than terrorist incidents) violent crime rates aren't very high. Why it's not a question of "IF" someone is packing it's a question of "WHAT"


    IF YOU CRIMINALIZE GUNS ONLY THE CRIMINALS WILL HAVE GUNS.

    Oh quit clouding the issue with facts. The level of violent and street crime in London and other cities has ballooned apparently. And a large number of these scumbags are using firearms to commit crimes. Add to that, many constables are now carrying weapons, or at least special teams are.

    An unarmed populace only makes it easier for criminals. Unlike the "idealistic" notion of the failure that is Socialism, the government cannot, will not, and does not protect the individual citizen. And the SCOTUS has even ruled as such in the very recent past.

    The Canadian government blames the United States for the influx of weapons. Well then crack down on your borders and shipping, don't bitch. Just as the BATFE needs to crack down on straw purchases and questionable business practices of the less than 1% of firearms dealers that violate the laws.

    For those that support the outright banning of firearms, tell me where else those that are innocent and have not committed a crime are barred from the ownership of an item that is legally manufactured?


    We have the RIGHT to own firearms in our nation. It is expressly written into our constitution. Many states have taken the steps to further that right by allowing one the express right to self defense.


    I will not give up my personal rights easily. I am not a sheep, and I will not rely upon the government to protect me. They cannot, do not, and will not.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  12. #32
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    IF YOU CRIMINALIZE GUNS ONLY THE CRIMINALS WILL HAVE GUNS.
    For a short period, but then they cant get replacement parts, they cant get new guns, the cant replace the guns they had to throw to the bottom of the harbour after the last robbery they have to keep them for later use. By keeping the guns on them they have increased their chances of being charged and convicted.
    Im not saying that our system works perfectly, but it sure as hell works better than yours.
    Last edited by PattyV; 10-11-2006 at 09:37 PM.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  13. #33
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    The amount of firearms used in crimes is actually on a decrease in Australia.
    I had a look at the Australian Bureau of Statistics and found some good reading. Australian Bureau of Statistics
    Cant really copy and paste it cause its that annoying .pdf format. Just go to pages 16 and 17.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  14. #34
    Forum Member BruenRescue2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    Oh quit clouding the issue with facts. The level of violent and street crime in London and other cities has ballooned apparently. And a large number of these scumbags are using firearms to commit crimes. Add to that, many constables are now carrying weapons, or at least special teams are.

    .


    "Violent street crime" doesn't mean that a firearm was used. It could be anything used as a weapon. Even if certain places have experienced increases in violent crimes involving firearms, the rate is still much lower then what you see in the US. While gun crime has risen in England and Wales since 1996 (the year the ban was introduced) the official figures reveal that this is largely owing to big increases in the number of incidents involving airguns, imitation guns and other weapons such as paintball guns for which there are few controls. Total gun crime, and handgun crime in particular, has fallen significantly in Scotland since the mid-1990s. In England and Wales handgun crime has fallen for the last two years, as has the total number of crimes, if those involving airguns and imitation guns are excluded.
    New York State EMT-B

  15. #35
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruenRescue2003
    "Violent street crime" doesn't mean that a firearm was used. It could be anything used as a weapon. Even if certain places have experienced increases in violent crimes involving firearms, the rate is still much lower then what you see in the US. While gun crime has risen in England and Wales since 1996 (the year the ban was introduced) the official figures reveal that this is largely owing to big increases in the number of incidents involving airguns, imitation guns and other weapons such as paintball guns for which there are few controls. Total gun crime, and handgun crime in particular, has fallen significantly in Scotland since the mid-1990s. In England and Wales handgun crime has fallen for the last two years, as has the total number of crimes, if those involving airguns and imitation guns are excluded.

    I never said that the crimes involved firearms. I said violent crime - rape, robbery, murder. And frankly, I don't care what in the hell I am murdered with, I am still just as dead. So with the increase in violent crime, the denial of LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to personal ownership of a firearm, the number of vilent crimes committed with other implements has increased. It has increased to the point that Parliament has considered a ban on (get this) large kitchen knives by private citizens.

    In the City of Boston (Massachusetts) after the ability of (again) LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to become licensed to own a firearm was severely restricted by state and local law in the late 1990s, there was the same proportional increase in violent crimes, murders, and batteries with knives, bats, pipes, etc. Should we ban them too?

    And it is convenient that to get the results in crime that you want, you have to exclude "....those (crimes) involving airguns and imitation guns......"

    So Boston, Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles, and Washington D.C. all have a rediculously high murder rate by firearms. Yet they are next to impossible to get legally. Thereby the point has been made, when you outlaw firearms then only criminals will have them.

    Further to Patty V's point, exactly how long are you willing to wait for those parts to break? I own 3 firearms, have had my oldest for 9 years. No breaks. So how long are you willing to wait? Until your grandchildren are dead?

    You would have to march across the globe and confiscate every single individually owned firearm from every single person (something many in the United Nations would love to do given this Summer's festivities at a meeting held by the UN.) You willing to pay for that? You willing to be held accountable when those actions fail? More importantly, are you PERSONALLY willing to do collect those firearms?

    Even in Canada, where personal ownership has been heavily restricted there are still incidents. Last year, 2 or 3 Mounties were killed in an ambush BY A CRIMINAL, and last month in Toronto there was a multiple shooting at a university. Laws do nothing to stop criminals......that is why they are criminals.

    Yet the anti-gun crowd wants to tell me, a person with no criminal record and who has served his nation and took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America", that I cannot own a firearm. I cannot own a firearm, not because of any particular action that I did, but because of what a rediculously minor number of people did - most of whom were doing so in the commision of a crime AND who had long-standing criminal records of their own.


    And if one recalls history, those nations with totalitarian leaders began by initiating firearms ownership lists, then restriction, then confiscation. Followed by oppression of its citizens. And you want me to trust the government?

    By your very notion to have the federal government tell me that I can no longer own a firearm, after following the laws and rules from the local, county, state, and federal legislative and law enforcement entities. You want me to surrender my right (again - an expressly written Constitutional guaranteed amendment/right) to a government that does not trust me?

    So let me ask you this......If you want me to give up my individual right (because you do not agree with it), exactly which individual and Consitutionally guaranteed right(s) are you willing to give up?

    Perhaps your RIGHT to free speech? Your RIGHT to "peaceably assemble?" Your RIGHT to criticize your government? Your RIGHT to unreasonable search & seizure? Your RIGHT to a speedy trial? Your RIGHT to fair treatment as a prisoner?

    Exactly what are you willing to give up while I give up (forcibly) my rights?

    How dare you have the unmitigated gall to tell another person to give up their individual rights, liberties, and freedoms! That, ladies and gentlemen is Socialism, Communism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism.

    How wonderful we have become as we have gained "enlightenment."

    Liberalism truly is a mental disease.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  16. #36
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    If rape was legal in your precious constitution would you disapprove that they changed that because they are taking away your rights. Just because it was a good idea 200 years ago or whenever it was written does not make it right for today's society.
    I dont think that every single person should have their weapons taken off them; I myself am applying for the Australian Defence Force because i wish to protect my countrymen. I am just saying there is a time and place for guns.
    Just a quick question: You have just taken $200 dollars out of the local ATM at night, there is no one else around except for some guy whom has just introduced you to his nice little 9mm. What good is a gun to you then when he will shoot you down before you can even get your hand to it?

    The issue here is not so much the criminals having guns. If they really want a gun they will get a gun. The issue is letting your average joe blow have a gun. How many times have you said to yourself 'Man i wish i could just kill that b@stard'? The problem comes when you give an emotionally charged person a firearm. Someone with a slight mental disorder might be having a bad day and just lose it for a bit. Now if all they could get their hands on was a knife then the chances of a citizens arrest or the victim overpowering/escaping them is greatly increased.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  17. #37
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    I have just been going through that page from the Australian Bureau of Statistics and I can not for the life of me figure out how anyone can claim that violent crime is at an all time high for Australia
    Below is the total number of crimes reported for the year 2001 and 2005. I wont show the in between years because the pattern shows a pretty much linear decrease.
    Murder:
    2001 = 311
    2005 = 270

    Attempted Murder:
    2001 = 460
    2005 = 273

    Kidnapping/Abduction:
    2001 = 767
    2005 = 731

    Robbery:
    2001 = 26,591
    2005 = 16,787

    This is for all types of weapons and the crimes using a firearm have been decreasing even sharper.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  18. #38
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    Guns won't make the number of violent crimes go down. If you take away guns, people will kill each other with other methods. It happened for centuries before guns even existed.

    As far has being worried about someone emotionally disturbed or mentally ill having a gun, the facts are the same. If someone wants to do harm or kill someone, its going to happen whether they have a gun or nut. A kill is a kill is a kill. Doesn't really matter how it happened. Again, you take away one thing and people will find something else to do it with.

    To quote Archie Bunker, "Would it make you feel any better little goil if they was pushed out of a window?"

    You have just taken $200 dollars out of the local ATM at night, there is no one else around except for some guy whom has just introduced you to his nice little 9mm. What good is a gun to you then when he will shoot you down before you can even get your hand to it?
    That is were proper training and mental preparedness come into play. Anyway your just introducing "what ifs". We could sit here all day and come up with what if scenarios. Is the system perfect, no. Nothing is perfect in this world. To think otherwise is dillusional. But our system works good for us, regardless of what your opinion might be.
    Tom Warshaw
    Station 13 (Bethel)
    Sumter Fire Department

    "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

    September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

    In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


    All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

  19. #39
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    School staff with guns = more guns in the schools = more kids getting ahold of teachers guns during show and tell...

    I have a better idea. Metal detectors and stricter visitation policies.

  20. #40
    Fir Na Tine LuckyThirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwaa
    School staff with guns = more guns in the schools = more kids getting ahold of teachers guns during show and tell...
    That's a good point. Who's to say a couple of students couldn't overpower a teacher and grab their gun away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwaa
    Metal detectors and stricter visitation policies.
    Metal detectors are a good idea. While they won't stop it completely in all cases (people find ways around everything), they definitely stem the tide of weapons (of all types) from entering schools. It helped big time with the Central High School in Bayville, NJ. They used to have alot of problems with weapons in school (not so much with guns, but with knives). Metal detectors cut down incidents with knives to almost non-existent.

    The only thing that metal detectors will not do is stem incidents that happen outside the building. No system is perfect, of course, but detectors are an effective tool for at least keeping them out of the building.
    Tom Warshaw
    Station 13 (Bethel)
    Sumter Fire Department

    "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

    September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

    In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


    All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

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