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  1. #41
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    I can only speak about the areas which I am familiar with in NC. CMS (Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools) has School Resource Officers (CMPD SROs) at ALL (roughly 20) High Schools and also at atleast 26 (if not ALL ~32) Middle Schools. In addition to that, CMS has its own Police Force. CMS Police are all sworn officers with arresting powers (and yes... they carry weapons and WILL arrest you). The CMS Police have several different "Divisions" including Investigations, Patrol, Truancy, Dispatch, etc. etc. ON TOP OF THAT.... there are also CMS Security Officers who do not carry any weapons, etc., but basically are there to patrol the campus, round up kids skipping classes, escourt kids to "lock-out" or detention, etc. etc. They maintain radio contact with the SROs and are able to report any problems.

    Also, I have lived in a small town that ALSO provided SROs at the local Elementary - High Schools. There were also school system Security Officers who patroled the schools as well.

    The High School I attended in CMS has rough 2600 students and a little over 300 staff members. So for a school with roughly 3000 people, here's the security we had:
    - AT LEAST 2-3 (sometime 4+) CMPD School Resource Officers (2-3 permanently assigned)
    - AT LEAST 4-6 (sometime 6+) CMS Security Officers patroling the campus on foot and/or via the John Deere Gators
    - Occasionally 1+ CMS Police Officer, but mainly just for Events, etc.
    - Also, ALL High Schools (not sure about Middle/Elementary) have CCTV cameras just about EVERYWHERE. The SROs/Security constantly monitor those cameras.

    Keep in mind, this was for a regular day of school. For sporting events, other special events, or if something occured which would require "increased security" there would obviously be more Officers than what is listed above. Another thing, our school has 14 Buildings spread across 75 acres. It's not your typical "everything's contained in one/two buildings" school. Most High Schools in CMS generally had the same number of SROs/Security Officers, although some might only require 1-2 SROs and maybe 2-4 Security Officers.

    I will say this... **To my knowledge** either by the grace of God or because the security measures being taken act a deterrent, there has not been a "school shooting" in any CMS school, during school hours. Sure there have been cases where a kid has brought a gun to school, sure there have been problems after school (off campus, but still close), etc. but nothing which resulted in the death of a student in school. I can honestly say that even though there are tons of psycho people out there... trust me, there were a few in that 3000... I never felt "unsafe" at school. NO ONE should feel unsafe when they are attending school, you are there to LEARN, NOT fear your safety!

    Bottom line... If you don't have SROs in your schools, get them. If you don't have enough Officers, hire them. If you have to raise taxes to pay for the additional Officers, do it. If people start complaining because of the increase, ask them what price tag they think a life should cost. Ask them how much they think their child's life is worth. How much would they be willing to pay to know that there is at least ONE sworn Police Officer at their child's school every day? It's a matter of safety... sure, SROs are not the cure-all for this problem, but at least they can provide some initial protection and can also act a deterrent.

    Just my twenty-one cents worth...
    Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.


  2. #42
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    The LEO in the school makes the most sense, that and maybe drop the "gun free zone" many states have around schools, that way school officials that have a concealed carry permit can carry while at work. It also makes schools less sure things for school shooters.

    There are many places I've seen over the last few years with high potential for crime that have mini-police substations in them. Several shopping malls have done this as have a few schools. It is not a matter of increasing the school budget, simply providing office space for a few officers, they are not at the school 100% but the odds are pretty good at least 1 is there most of the time and there are always officers nearby by, plus they know the layout of the school better than most.

    As far as school officials carrying, I am against a blanket policy but all for loosening the restrictions. Most teachers I know (and I've known many since my mother is a teacher) would most likely shoot themselves if they would even accept a gun. As a group they have been the most un-gun and actually un-emergency oriented people I've met, they focus on teaching and the students, the idea of preparing for an emergency is a waste of their already shrinking time for educating. However there are exceptions.

    Several years ago a school principal (in Mississippi?) stopped a school shooting when he went to his car and got his handgun, the student surrendered when he faced a gun weilding principal, the student had shot several students at a high school and was headed towards the elementry school next door when he was stopped by the principal. For a short time (basically until the public outcry for the DA's head) the principal was being charged with having a gun on school grounds. Who knows how many of the school shootings over the years may have been stopped with fewer deaths if competent gun owning school officials had been allowed to carry on school grounds. Its not a matter of them clearing the school, that is a law enforcement job, but an armed teacher locked in the classroom with the students is a much bigger deterant than an unarmed one.

    Its definately something to consider, I find it interesting how quickly they seem to accept the idea compared to the airline pilots, a group I have much more confidence in when it comes to an emergency situation.

  3. #43
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattyV
    If rape was legal in your precious constitution would you disapprove that they changed that because they are taking away your rights
    "If" it is not so your point is moot. I am concerned about people who want to take away an individual's rights for the fear that something might happen.

    And you are spot-on right......The Constitution of the United States of America is a mighty precious thing. As it is for any citizen or resident of this country.

    Not only does it tell me what I can and cannot do, more importantly it tells the government what it cannot do.



    I agree that not everyone should own a weapon. But there are ways to screen people, and the laws need to be enforced. However, it is pretty sad that all of the thousands of local, county, state, and federal laws are all passed, but not enforced. If you are a firearms dealer (or any other type of regulated business) and you violate the law - blatantly now, not just an error in accounting or something "trivial" - then you are out of business because your license is revoked.

    And people will use whatever implement they want to kill, injure, threaten, or harass you. Criminals, or those intent on doing harm do not give a rats @$$ about the law.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  4. #44
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    But our system works good for us, regardless of what your opinion might be.
    Never have i had to be searched entering school except when i visited an American school in Malaysia.
    If your system works why do you have so many people going on killing sprees. Wake up to yourselves. Apart from a few very rare incidents; this doesnt happen in the rest of the developed world .

    Yes people might use whatever weapon they can get their hands on; guns are the most effective and give the victims the least chance to fight back. With a gun you dont have time to duck if the killer decides to shoot. He can kill you before you have realised that he pulled the trigger. With a knife the victim can at least fight back, if there is more than one victim the attacker can be overpowered.
    Last edited by PattyV; 10-12-2006 at 09:01 PM.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  5. #45
    Fir Na Tine LuckyThirteen's Avatar
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    Oh yes, we know just how much of a utopia the rest of the developed world is...
    Tom Warshaw
    Station 13 (Bethel)
    Sumter Fire Department

    "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

    September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

    In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


    All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

  6. #46
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    Relatively Tom, relatively.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  7. #47
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    Default ftmptb

    I would like to know how much those guys make. how much does it cost the school board? Kinda curious.
    J
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    I would like to know how much those guys make. how much does it cost the school board? Kinda curious.
    J
    Are you talking about the CMS Police Officers or the CMS Security Officers? The SROs are all CMPD Officers. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure about either of the CMS Officers. If you want to know one or the other let me know.. or if you just want to know about both. I'll have to do some scratching around.
    Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTMPTB15
    Are you talking about the CMS Police Officers or the CMS Security Officers? The SROs are all CMPD Officers. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure about either of the CMS Officers. If you want to know one or the other let me know.. or if you just want to know about both. I'll have to do some scratching around.
    Just the school officers. i was trying to see how much it costs becuase that sounds like a lot of money just for the officer. not that it's not worth it but it sounds like a lot to ask from a school district. the whole 5 security guards or 5 teachers. hmmmm which one would you pick. And you have to remember tha 2 weeks after a tragedy like the PA shooting people go back to the "it wouldn't happen here" thought process.
    J
    Last edited by mcfd45; 10-13-2006 at 03:00 AM. Reason: cause I am special
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

  10. #50
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    I'll see how much the CMS Officers cost... I can tell you this... the 2005-2006 Budget for CMS is $979 Million.

    Here are some links, I'll try and find out a total cost for the CMS Police Force.
    http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/departments...sp?jobID=12772
    http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/departments...sp?jobID=12764
    Those are the only two current job openings as a CMS LEO.
    Here is the CMS PD homepage:
    http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/departments...ment/index.asp

    I'll see what I can find about the CMS LE Department's overall cost.
    As you can see, they do more than simply patrol. They actually handle a lot of different things. It's the people with the "it won't happen to me" mentality that are usually the next people these cases impact. Is it just me... or do many of these shootings take place in smallish communities, rural areas, etc. I think IF someone were to attempt this at a CMS school, they'd be making a mistake. With the cameras that are monitored, the security monitoring incoming/outgoing traffic, security patroling the campus (including perimeter), etc. In NO way is CMS perfect, but I must say, they do a good job with security. If it's my life (or my child's life), I can't price the value of a life. period.
    Last edited by FTMPTB15; 10-13-2006 at 03:28 AM. Reason: add a few links
    Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattyV
    Yes people might use whatever weapon they can get their hands on; guns are the most effective and give the victims the least chance to fight back. With a gun you dont have time to duck if the killer decides to shoot. He can kill you before you have realised that he pulled the trigger. With a knife the victim can at least fight back, if there is more than one victim the attacker can be overpowered.
    We just had a home invasion here in Memphis where the resident fought with her attacker,got his gun away and shot him to death and sent his buddies running for their lives.
    I guess that gives credence to the hoplophobes saying that you'll only get your gun taken from you and used against you.
    When I lived in Paducah Ky,I knew enough of the players involved with the Heath Middle School shooting that I might qualify as a knowledgeable person.That would require a seperate thread in itself to discuss.
    Just because someone has easy access to firearms doesn't mean that they will automatically shoot someone.
    And just because someone has no access to firearms, doesn't mean that they can't find a way to get one legally or otherwise or devise a way to kill thousands without even firing a shot(Sept 11,2001 comes to mind).
    A firearm is an inanimate object and cannot control the mind of its user.I've been a gun owner 22 years and none of my firearms have directed my actions.If I want to go hunting,I go hunting.If I want to go punch holes in paper targets,I go to the local range.
    And should the need to defend myself with a firearm,well,I've done that before without firing a shot and been arrested for doing so because the DA wanted to be the first kid on his block to get a conviction of a Bill that wasn't even signed into an Act yet.
    There is no firearm made that decides what its user does nor does the capability to devine whether an action is legal or not exist in the machinery.
    The reason for excessive crime rates lies in a judicial system that doesn't punish criminal action,not the fact that Free people are able to exercise their Right to keep and bear arms if they so choose.

  12. #52
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    I see where you are coming from Doug, but there is a difference between the September 11th hijackers and your upset postman. A lot of the killings you guys have seem to be spur of the moment. I know a lot of them are deliberately planned and you cant stop these men from carrying them out by restricting guns. A lot of them however might never have happened if the perpetraitor did not have ready access to a gun. The thought wouldnt go from 'I wish I had a gun to show them' to 'Where is my gun? I'll show them!'

    We just had a home invasion here in Memphis where the resident fought with her attacker,got his gun away and shot him to death
    As long as they are not physically attacking you then I dont see why you need to put your life at risk by trying to overpower them. Its just valuables that can be replaced. If they were trying to attack or rape her then I fully understand and congradulate her.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  13. #53
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    I think one of the biggest factors in all of this is society. American society is completely different from any other society on Earth. Today's American society is completley different from what it was 10 years ago. In our society today we have absolved the individual of almost all responsibility for his or her actions. Everything that happens now adays is somebody else's fault. Their mommy or daddy, or lack of money, abuse, the media, comic books, or video games, the list can go on and on. Part of America's problem is that we are a young country compared to the rest of the world add that to starting out as a republic that prides itself on personal freedom and it equal we are what we are. We are the worlds teenager and as such we are still sorting things out. European countries like Great Britian (this includes Canada and Australia) are the old men on the block, as society's go, and are based on a Monarachy style government that has limited personal freedom throughout their entire history.

    US crime statistics cannot be compared to any other country in the world. There are just too many variables to make it an apples to apples comparison. One factor that many gun control advocates choose to ignore or forget about is the primary reason the Second Amendment was added to the US Constitution was best expressed in another famous document.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ó That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ó That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    The reality of the situation is that despite a few isolated incidents that while absouletly despicable and deplorable the US is a fairly civil nation. To those that think otherwise here are a few examples; the IRA, Uguanda (mass genocide), radical Islam (mass murder, sponsored terrorism), Somalia, the former Czech Republic, Germany 1939-1944, Japan 1935-1945, most South American countries, the former USSR, and others. That's just in the 20th century. Antiquity provides enough examples of atrocities and societial ills that make any of our problems seem like spilt milk.

  14. #54
    Forum Member PattyV's Avatar
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    European countries like Great Britian (this includes Canada and Australia)
    I agree with you on most of your points but this one is a little hard for me to swallow. Australia has only had 105 years to form its identity. America used to be a British colony as well. Granted we were given some guidance in the early years and I am assuming that is what you are talking about.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  15. #55
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3
    One factor that many gun control advocates choose to ignore or forget about is the primary reason the Second Amendment was added to the US Constitution was best expressed in another famous document.
    Quite true. And quite the reason why many governments do not like an armed populace. Hence my mentioning of Naziism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism earlier (something completely ignored by those calling for me to give up my rights and freedoms.)

    Liberty is only achieved when a government (elected or otherwise) fears its citizens.


    And Patty, so when someone breaks into my house, I should allow them to come into by bedroom, bound and gag me and my wife, and then let them take things from me?

    I will not - let me say that again - I WILL NOT surrender my rights, liberty, or freedom to another man. You break into my house, while I am home, I can only assume that you intend to do the occupants of my domicile harm. And I will not sit idly by and allow that to happen. I will not give a threat a chance to get the upper hand on me. I will not stop them and ask what their intents are. They MAY get a verbal warning, but they better not count on it. I will not sit idly by and become a victim when I have the means to prevent it.

    For this very reason, even the flaming liberal Commonwealth of Massachusetts considers breaking and entering during the daylight hours and breaking and entering in the night hours to be two different crimes with two different severities of punishment and charges. Simply because a domicile is EXPECTED to be occupied at night and therefore harm to the occupiers is expected to occur. I think that should be altered given modern society's different working schedule nowadays though.

    The do not fight back crowd blows my mind. "Become a victim" "Let them do what they want" HELL NO! Do not embolden them. Last year in Great Britain a farmer was imprisoned for shooting two intruders with his LEGALLY OWNED weapon when they broke INTO his house. He was even sued if I recall correctly.

    I will not subvert my own security to the government - any government at any level - that time and time again has shown its failures and inabilities to protect the individual citizen. It is up to the individual citizen to prepare for things themselves, and to defend/protect themselves and their property or lives.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  16. #56
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattyV
    I agree with you on most of your points but this one is a little hard for me to swallow. Australia has only had 105 years to form its identity. America used to be a British colony as well. Granted we were given some guidance in the early years and I am assuming that is what you are talking about.
    Ah, but the primary difference is that America violently broke from England and became, for lack of a better term, a dumping ground for the rest of the World. Australia on the hand was a primarly settled by the British with a smattering of other cultures. Australians brought with them British ideals and built upon them. That's why Australia and Great Britian's ideals have coencided (hope that's spelled right).

  17. #57
    Forum Member jlcooke3's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DaSharkie]Quite true. And quite the reason why many governments do not like an armed populace. Hence my mentioning of Naziism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism earlier (something completely ignored by those calling for me to give up my rights and freedoms.)

    Liberty is only achieved when a government (elected or otherwise) fears its citizens.QUOTE]
    Your absouletly correct, when a government stops fearing its citizens it begins to take away the rights of the individual for the "good of society". What it is really doing is taking away the rights of the individual for the good of the government.

  18. #58
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3
    Your absouletly correct, when a government stops fearing its citizens it begins to take away the rights of the individual for the "good of society". What it is really doing is taking away the rights of the individual for the good of the government.
    Quite true. I just wish people would realize this before they call for me to give up my rights.

    Won't happen, but I will fight it tooth and nail and call out the hypocracy every time I see it.

    And I am still waiting to hear what rights those telling em to give mine will surrender in return.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    And I am still waiting to hear what rights those telling em to give mine will surrender in return.
    None, for they have all ready have given up theirs for the "greater good" and are among the rightous few you shall show us heathens the true way to happiness and a perfect society.

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    Ah, but the primary difference is that America violently broke from England and became, for lack of a better term, a dumping ground for the rest of the World. Australia on the hand was a primarly settled by the British with a smattering of other cultures. Australians brought with them British ideals and built upon them.

    Culture in Aussi is what makes yogurt nice to eat.

    oooooohhhhh its the twighlight zone shimy and flashback to the past.

    Somewhere in English Parliament many moons ago....

    "Hey boss, we just found this really big land down south, its bloody huge."

    "Ok junior, what does this mean to us"

    "Wellllll Boss, we can ship our criminals down there for a 100 years and never fill the place."


    "Get on to it Junior, since America beat us, we are running out of options."





    (jokes, just jokes)
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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