Not Wanting to do an Inspection Trip

[chiefengineer11]

You know - my neck of the woods might be on the way home or there depending on how you chose to get to Waterous' plant. If you get out this way, let me know and maybe I could spring for dinner for you and a certain other local guy you met out in Iowa not too long ago.

High on my list, for sure. Can't pass through there without stopping in Markham to visit people I used to work with. As long as I'm making a big circle, I might feel compelled to include Breda, Ia. on my itinerary. That's if I can pull the whole thing off in the first place.

[rfd599]

ChiefEngineer:

Let NPFD know when you get to the area and I would enjoy visting with you again. It was nice meeting you out in Breda during your pre-construction conference. Good luck and let us know when you are in the area.

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

[chiefengineer11]

You've got a deal. Thanks!

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Catch22]

I'll reiterate that you should definitely go do the pre-paint. I just got back from Lyons. There were several issues we found, mainly due to the fact the factory never got one of the change orders to correct things that were left off months ago. Had we not gone, we'd have got the truck missing a bunch of things. Plus there were duplicates on change orders (same thing added twice) which was going to cost us more. As we got to questioning things missing, we discovered all this. Nothing to do with Central or our saleman, but the dealer's office apparently.

[mitchkrat]

I'll reiterate that you should definitely go do the pre-paint. I just got back from Lyons. There were several issues we found, mainly due to the fact the factory never got one of the change orders to correct things that were left off months ago. Had we not gone, we'd have got the truck missing a bunch of things. Plus there were duplicates on change orders (same thing added twice) which was going to cost us more. As we got to questioning things missing, we discovered all this. Nothing to do with Central or our saleman, but the dealer's office apparently.

Hey - you didn't see them building a 2500 gallon pumper-tanker on a KW chasis? We have one on order and had a scheduled delivery date of Nov 15 (they got the chasis in end of August). We can't get anyone from the plant in Lyon's to return and email or phone call.

[Catch22]

Hey - you didn't see them building a 2500 gallon pumper-tanker on a KW chasis? We have one on order and had a scheduled delivery date of Nov 15 (they got the chasis in end of August). We can't get anyone from the plant in Lyon's to return and email or phone call.

I saw one, but it was ours. It seems like there was one or two others in the plant, plus a big ***** 3,000 gallon pumper/tanker on a KW (geez that thing was big). There were also a couple tandem body panels I saw that might have been yours.

Good luck trying to catch someone, I'm still waiting to hear on the issues we found while we were up there. They aren't going to be happy if it's not right when they drive it 8 hours down here.

If you like, I can send you a picture of what one looks like.

[Rescue101]

Oh,that's just cruel,hehe T.C.

[Catch22]

Oh,that's just cruel,hehe T.C.

I couldn't help myself.

[ponebutton1]

Should you do the inspection trips? Just ask Chisholm FD about their new rear mount pumper built by Custom Fire Apparatus of Osceola WI.

Apparatus was ordered yellow to match existing fleet; delivery was made red.

Check the pictures: http://www.customfire.com/d_pumper.php?id=447f88618a73e

This is a difficult lesson to learn all around; I hope Chisholm FD received a healthy discount off bill from Custom Fire Apparatus.

[BlitzfireSolo]

Apparatus was ordered yellow to match existing fleet; delivery was made red.

That was not an error - that was a correction on the manufacturer's part - they realized what color fire apparatus is supposed to be. It would have been too ugly if they allowed it to be built yellow.


By the time our new engine is delivered, we'll have a total of six trips to the manufacturer, or five at the very least - pre-bid, pre-con, pre-paint & plumbing early mid, post-paint & body mount late mid, final, and final-final (the final-final would be to inspect issues that had to be corrected at the final - we won't need to do that if everything checks out perfectly at the final).

[jfTL41]

Factory inspections (I did not say trip, because trips are fun and you are going to work) are very important, you are going to live with results for a very long time, longer than many marriages. If you catch something pre-paint the correction will be easier and have a better end result than at delivery or on final. This is especially true in this case as you are not dealing with a sole source provider. Anything that happens after you take delivery you will be dealing lots of fingerpointing. Each will use the other as the out so as not to pay for the warranty work or corrections.

[npfd801]

This is especially true in this case as you are not dealing with a sole source provider. Anything that happens after you take delivery you will be dealing lots of fingerpointing. Each will use the other as the out so as not to pay for the warranty work or corrections.

This is baloney. Every rig in our fleet has a chassis built by one party and a body by another, and not once has there been finger pointing. Every issue that has come up has been addressed by the appropriate folks in a timely fashion, for the most part. Typically our problem is more with following through to get repairs done on our part rather than an unwilling builder.

A strong builder, whether they get their chassis from someone else or not - will make the rig right if something is wrong.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

This is baloney. Every rig in our fleet has a chassis built by one party and a body by another, and not once has there been finger pointing. Every issue that has come up has been addressed by the appropriate folks in a timely fashion, for the most part. Typically our problem is more with following through to get repairs done on our part rather than an unwilling builder.

A strong builder, whether they get their chassis from someone else or not - will make the rig right if something is wrong.

If you ever have a chance to attend a seminar by Mike Wilbur, who is a contributor to this site (The Apparatus Architect column on the home page), you will definitely have a change of heart on the matter. I went to a seminar he gave for the Senior Fire Officer program for the Massachusetts Fire Academy earlier this year. Mike had factual accounts of trucks that were mechanical nightmares and every component manufacturer blaming someone else... and the pics to back them up!

[Chauffeur6]

You have to forgive npfd801's defensiveness on the issue of "sole source manufacturers" as he works in sales for a particular non-sole source manufacturer.

[VanIsleEVT]

So basically your saying that every fire apparatus out there built on a Commercial or say a Spartan chassis was a mistake and you can expect to do some finger pointing when you have a problem. I don't think so.

[npfd801]

Regardless of who I work for, it doesn't matter. Most of the rigs I ride on weren't built by the company I sell for. We've had zero problems with any of them where Alexis, General, or Monroe started finger pointing and saying, "Ain't my fault!"

Let's talk about all this sole source garbage. So when the third party generator fails on your beloved Pierce, Ferrara or E-One is your sole source going to take care of that any better than any reputable builder? Or when the Cummins blows up in your E-One is E-One going to handle that? The simple fact is that the sole-source argument is another way for people who build their own chassis to push out their chests and beat on it in an effort to claim they're superior. Funny thing is most of these sole-source folks are more than happy to build on someone else's chassis if required. No, it may not be a Spartan or HME, but there are lots on IH, Freightliner, Ford. If sole-source was indeed THAT vital to the rig you bring home being a functional non-lemon, then I'm sure Oshkosh could muster all their financial might and build their own super cheap commerical style truck chassis or smaller unit.

It is so vital in fact, that E-One, Ferrara and KME will build on a Spartan if you want them to, and probably an HME if you demanded it (Ferrara will for sure).

There's a big part of me that likes the fact that so many Spartans are built that you have the safety of production numbers. The multiplex system isn't their own, fine - but it is easily the most widely used in the industry. I like scale of production, knowing that if a problem pattern persists (and with so many out there, if should develop sooner) - Spartan will fix it ands not sweep in under the rug because not only do they answer to their end users, but they answer to the body builders who use their product.

So if Rosenbauer buys 51% of Spartan down the road, are they sole source then? Does it really matter? Sole source didn't help the department in the Chicago suburbs whose aerial was sidelined for almost a year due to sole source multiplex issues. That helped a lot there...

I'm not going to change anyone's mind here, but I'll argue against sole source being the superior way to go all day.

[Chauffeur6]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. There are PLENTY of "hybrid" trucks in my neck of the woods that are outstanding apparatus. Notably Spartan chassis with Saulsbury bodies, although there are a few Spartan/General and Spartan/Marion, not to mention all the Macks running around with OEM bodies on them.

[RFDACM02]

So when your aerial crushes the cab and the problem is a shorted wire from the chassis, who pays the bill or approves the repair? The Builder says its the chassis builder's wire, the chassis builder says the body builder damaged the wire, who in turn says no it happened when the aerial was mounted. Day to day things the builder may take care of but large dollar losses, maybe only a few manufacturers will make the repairs and get their money later. Of course other than a few minor issues in this nature I have no true experience with this on a large scale. But, as Capt. Gonzo stated, I've taken a few of Lt. Wilbur's programs, and believe he knows more about the fire apparatus business than most. I also am interested in the "new" sole repair statemetns being offered to offset the sole source bidding. And since Mike Wilbur is here at my station today, I'll ask his thoughts on the same.

[npfd801]

I'm sure for every incident of some sort of non sole-source builder shafting a customer, I could find you an incident of a sole source builder constructing a POS that failed the purchaser in some form, and wasn't taken care of by the builder in a manner satisfactory to the customer. There will always be this finger pointing in the industry, I just don't do it. Sure, I'll give you an incident somewhere else as an example, but won't name the department or brand. I will never sell my customers this way.

I find it ironic that Mike Wilbur voices his preference of sole source suppliers, yet we see this barrage of press coming from New York about how horrible the service and repair of New York City's sole source rigs has been going.

Now personally, I don't have any beef with Seagrave or Mike Wilbur. I'm sure I've enjoyed Mr. Wilbur's presenation at FDIC in the past, but don't quote me on it. The stories from New York are just yet another spin on how, one way or another, you can show that every manufacturer can look bad, if you want them too. I am not slighting Seagrave's product - they make darn fine rigs, just proving a point. Someone involved in the FDNY (unions, from what I can tell) has an agenda to make Seagrave, or whoever is responsible for buying them, look bad.

Which leads to this question - if you buy a Seagrave chassis and body with one of their Towermax aerials, is that sole source? They don't build the aerial...

Folks who are on one side of the fence with sole source will most likely stay there until wronged (which may never happen). Those on the other side feel it isn't an issue. I think some of us could debate (not argue) the issue for days and not agree.

[Catch22]

Not that I have that much to throw in the fray about sole-source builders, but can you trully call them "sole-source." I don't know of anyone that builds every component in-house. The engine and pump have to come from somewhere (I don't think ALF or Seagrave still make their own, but could be wrong).

Could it be another one of those things it depends on who your dealer is on who is going to accept responsibility and get the fix done?