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    It looks as if everyone here is smart enough to know when to cut and when to disconnect. The point I wanted to get across was if I am inside the car working on the patient, I want the battery disconnected as soon as possible. I do not want to see a minutes pass because the crew is screwing around with wrenches, trying to find the correct size so that they can disconnect the battery from the terminals. Get the damn cutters and have them cut within seconds. Some airbag systems take a while for them to deenergeize. I do not need the damn airbag going off in my face while I am applying a collar, KED, etc.

    As for price of new battery cables, for most vehicles, they are not expensive. For example, the cables for my '05 Impala are $12 a piece. Most cost between $10 and $20 a per cable.
    Last edited by SIGNAL99COM; 10-08-2006 at 12:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck
    When you remove the negative cable first you will get NO sparks while removing it. If you remove the positive cable first you WILL get sparks just from removing it as it is still in a closed circut. Also there is some mis-information in a few of the above threads....Regardless if the negative cable is removed or not, IF you touch any metal part with your wrench while removing the positive cable, you will get sparks. You are creating a dead short between the positive and ground.
    Not sure where you came up with this information but it is all incorrect and you clearly don't know how electricity works.

    You will get sparks from either cable when you pull the clamp off. The more things in the car that are turned on, the bigger the sparks will be. I've found that cutting it slowly tends to make little or no spark. Unclamping it always makes sparks if there is a load on it.

    If the battery negative/ground is disconnected, touching the tool from the positive terminal to the body or anything else will do absolutely NOTHING. You can lick the battery post and touch the metal body with a bleeding hand and nothing will happen. There is no circuit to complete and the body has no electrical connection to anything.

    What others have said about why we take the negative/ground first is absolutely correct. It won't make a difference to the airbag system which you diconnect first. Neither make it any more or less likely to fire.


    Quote Originally Posted by redneckemt
    What about Hybrids???
    A hybrid vehicle is exactly the same as a conventional vehicle as far as the 12 volt system and airbags. Disconnect just like you would any other vehicle.

    The differences are in how you de-energize the high voltage system. Some high voltage systems disconnct when the 12 volt system is disconnected. Some require you to find a disconnect switch in the trunk. Some have a delay. The high voltage wires will be big bright orange, red, or blue wires. The wise fireman would make an effort to not touch them. In fact, the ERG for most hybrid vehicles state that rescuers should remove all jewlery before entering the vehicle to avoid dangling things from touching the wires. Most of the HV systems have a safety that will disconnect it automaticly if it senses a fault. However, keep in mind that the electric motor is a significant load, probably more than your hand so it may not see a person as a fault.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    Not sure where you came up with this information but it is all incorrect and you clearly don't know how electricity works.

    You will get sparks from either cable when you pull the clamp off. The more things in the car that are turned on, the bigger the sparks will be. I've found that cutting it slowly tends to make little or no spark. Unclamping it always makes sparks if there is a load on it.

    If the battery negative/ground is disconnected, touching the tool from the positive terminal to the body or anything else will do absolutely NOTHING. You can lick the battery post and touch the metal body with a bleeding hand and nothing will happen. There is no circuit to complete and the body has no electrical connection to anything.

    What others have said about why we take the negative/ground first is absolutely correct. It won't make a difference to the airbag system which you diconnect first. Neither make it any more or less likely to fire.




    A hybrid vehicle is exactly the same as a conventional vehicle as far as the 12 volt system and airbags. Disconnect just like you would any other vehicle.

    The differences are in how you de-energize the high voltage system. Some high voltage systems disconnct when the 12 volt system is disconnected. Some require you to find a disconnect switch in the trunk. Some have a delay. The high voltage wires will be big bright orange, red, or blue wires. The wise fireman would make an effort to not touch them. In fact, the ERG for most hybrid vehicles state that rescuers should remove all jewlery before entering the vehicle to avoid dangling things from touching the wires. Most of the HV systems have a safety that will disconnect it automaticly if it senses a fault. However, keep in mind that the electric motor is a significant load, probably more than your hand so it may not see a person as a fault.
    I clarified my statement in my post above.....Atleast to some I did

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    Why are we cutting them in the first place? Has anyone been to an extrication competition and done this? Can you tell me what hazards are being overcome by doing this? And I don't wanna here back air bags unless your ready to explain how they work and why it would be advantagious. I can only think of a very few rare instances where you would need to disconect the juice and none of them apply to our everyday pin jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3427
    Why are we cutting them in the first place? Has anyone been to an extrication competition and done this? Can you tell me what hazards are being overcome by doing this? And I don't wanna here back air bags unless your ready to explain how they work and why it would be advantagious. I can only think of a very few rare instances where you would need to disconect the juice and none of them apply to our everyday pin jobs.

    Wait, you're basing your assumptions on extrication competitions?
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    Why are we cutting them in the first place?
    Very simple...to de-energize the vehicle. Why would you not?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Just to make it more confusing, remember that electricity flows from negative to positive. Electrons have a negative charge and accumulate on the negative plate of the battery. They flow through the conductors and load to the area of electron deficit at the positive side of the cell.

    Two atoms are walking down a street. One says "I think I lost an electron" The other says "are you sure", the first replies, "Yes, I'm positive".

    Think of it this way, the negative wire connects to the car body and frame and fills it with electrons. The positive side (red wire by convention) provides a drain for the electrons to travel back to the other side of the battery, in essence, to balance the chemical reaction occuring in the battery. In the old days, with metal dashboards, you could install a stereo and only hook up the positive wire to the fuse block. The negative supply came through the mounting hardware to the chasis of the radio.

    The negative lead coming from the battery, if it comes in contact with the body, can re-energize the vehicle.

    Cutting any conductor under a load will produce an arc as the electrons try to contiune flowing. The size of the arc is a function of the current drawn, not if the lead is positive or negative. Placing an ammeter on either the positive or negative side of a load will indicate the same current draw.

    If you were to cut the negative cable and then connect a voltmeter to the two ends, the cable going to the ground (frame or body) would now be postive while the wire from the battery would remain negative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3427
    Why are we cutting them in the first place? Has anyone been to an extrication competition and done this? Can you tell me what hazards are being overcome by doing this? And I don't wanna here back air bags unless your ready to explain how they work and why it would be advantagious. I can only think of a very few rare instances where you would need to disconect the juice and none of them apply to our everyday pin jobs.
    Uh...to lessen the chance of fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3427
    Why are we cutting them in the first place? Has anyone been to an extrication competition and done this? Can you tell me what hazards are being overcome by doing this? And I don't wanna here back air bags unless your ready to explain how they work and why it would be advantagious. I can only think of a very few rare instances where you would need to disconect the juice and none of them apply to our everyday pin jobs.
    Are you serious? First of all, this has nothing to do with extrication. It should be taking place at any minutely serious MVA. The hazzards are the same regardless of the doors being pinned shut or not. And the fact that you are more or less comparing this to a game shows you simply are not qualified to be making these statements.

    First and foremost is it beings to disarm the airbag system... and that is all the airbags, not just rear airbags. I don't even know where you came up with that. Once the battery is disconnected, the airbag computer's capacitors will start to drain. Within 5-12 minutes or so, the airbags will be disarmed and unable to deploy. If you are actually too blind to understand why we do this, I will explain it. It is so they don't go off while we are working on the car and hurt us or hurt a patient. The car is damaged and things are not intact the way they used to be. Relying on the integrity of the sensors, computer, and wiring to not deploy the airbags is simply not reliable. Plus, we are cutting, bending, pushing, and breaking things all over the car. This increases the likeliness of us triggering the system to fire. All of the above has happened before, will happen again, and causes serious injury each time. Cars are being rolled out with airbags coming out of everywhere, even the cheap cars. There are now dual-stage bags that can fire more than once. Some are using 4000psi compressed gas cylinders. Some are using pyro charges. Dealing with airbags and other safety systems is a fact of life for any MVA today and pretending it isn't a problem is simply ignorant.

    Second of all, it reduced the risk of a fire. Once again, the car is all mangled up which means the wiring is all mangled up. What happens when you mangle wires and they short circuit to the body? They can easily melt and catch fire as we are cutting, bending, pushing etc. It also ensures that no loose wiring is going to create sparks and ignite leaking fuel.

    It also ensures the engine is not going to start. It also ensures that no short circuit of the primary wires leading off the battery will make the battery explode in our faces and/or start a fire. It also ensures the fuel pump won't be running or start running. Electric seats pedals won't start moving on us when we don't want them to.

    So, should I keep going, or are these reasons enough?
    Last edited by nmfire; 10-08-2006 at 11:36 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3427
    Why are we cutting them in the first place? Has anyone been to an extrication competition and done this? Can you tell me what hazards are being overcome by doing this? And I don't wanna here back air bags unless your ready to explain how they work and why it would be advantagious. I can only think of a very few rare instances where you would need to disconect the juice and none of them apply to our everyday pin jobs.

    SEE nmfire's post above.. he went into more detail than me!

    Thanks.. nmfire!
    Last edited by FTMPTB15; 10-08-2006 at 11:52 PM.
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    99,Not to "pick"on you but I doubt you are buying a positive cable for your GM thru GM for $12.Negative maybe.And your particular GM is HARDLY representative of some of the late models,particularly imports and their relative parts.Either that,or give me the name of your supplier,we could probably do business.Anyway:when possible I prefer to unfasten the cable and tape it back as some others have indicated.To do this I like to carry a small pair of Visegrip pliers.They work on 99% of the vehicles out there.Plus as a tow operator l find that most modern vehicles have shift interlock to keep you from shifting out of park without the brake applied.Now MOST disengage when battery power is removed but some don't.Any of you who have taken a winching course probably remember what happens to the resistance when the wheels don't roll.And when you take that 2" chunk out of the cable........Weeeeell,you get the drift. One more thought to ponder(these last thoughts are for thought and NOT directed specifically at 99)The more difficult you make it for the tower,the longer it will take to clear the scene.Particularly if you do NOT have a highly skilled operator.Everybody has to work together and it's a VERY GOOD idea to train together. I'm with the majority here,secure the electric as soon as possible.But there are better ways to do it and they vary by vehicle.Learn as much as you can,maybe make a "field trip" training to a local salvage yard. T.C.

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    Default ERG's & Video

    Take a look at the link that I have here. You will find some really good info on battery locations/discharge times for specific vehicles as well as some good videos.
    http://www.sceneoftheaccident.org/
    One of the videos is a prime example of why we secure the power. Check out the Dayton Incident (fifth video down). Two Brothers proved how important securing the power can be. (Caution: Large video file)
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    nmfire,

    Great post. Some people just don't get it which makes it dangerous for the rest of us. I carry a $10 of wire cutters in my gear and they are very effective. I cut the cable so that it would be physically impossible for it to reconnect.

    Rescue101,

    I hear your point and on a very minor mva without injuries I might consider it. Whatever ensures the fastest, safest option for my crew and the patient is what we are going to do.

    As for airbags, the auto industry is making it harder for us to do our job. Some of the new capacitors will stay energized for 2-3 times as long as the old ones. Airbags are all over the car. Watch out for knee airbags in the KIA's.

    I wish that the auto industry would come up with a low tech/low cost universal key/device for the fire service to completely shut down the airbag system every time. When the cops bust a chop shop with air bag charges present, they call in the bomb squad. Where does that leave us?
    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    Once the battery is disconnected, the airbag computer's capacitors will start to drain. Within 5-12 minutes or so, the airbags will be disarmed and unable to deploy.
    Is this still true? Someone the other day mentioned that while this was true for first-generation air bag systems, most modern systems discharge within 10-15 seconds. I haven't have a chance to look more into it, just something that came up in conversation.

    Also, in addition to battery location another complication is battery orientation. Sometimes the battery terminals are burried UNDER the battery, on the side, rear, front. A lot of times there is so much other junk covering the thing that it's impossible to get at with either a wrench or cutters. I wouldn't be surprised if some ingenious auto engineer thought it'd be a good idea to put the terminals inside the battery!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cityfire7
    Take a look at the link that I have here. You will find some really good info on battery locations/discharge times for specific vehicles as well as some good videos.
    http://www.sceneoftheaccident.org/
    One of the videos is a prime example of why we secure the power. Check out the Dayton Incident (fifth video down). Two Brothers proved how important securing the power can be. (Caution: Large video file)
    Great video. Recommended for ANYONE who responds to these types of incidents...cops, firefighters, EMS, and tow truck operators.
    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    Is this still true? Someone the other day mentioned that while this was true for first-generation air bag systems, most modern systems discharge within 10-15 seconds. I haven't have a chance to look more into it, just something that came up in conversation.

    Also, in addition to battery location another complication is battery orientation. Sometimes the battery terminals are burried UNDER the battery, on the side, rear, front. A lot of times there is so much other junk covering the thing that it's impossible to get at with either a wrench or cutters. I wouldn't be surprised if some ingenious auto engineer thought it'd be a good idea to put the terminals inside the battery!
    Disclaimer: I'm not a salesman for Holmatro and I will make no money off of this endorsement.

    Take a look at the Holmatro USA website. They sell a book (Rescuers Guide to Vehicle Safety Systems?) that might be helpful. I'm trying to talk our department into getting one. It breaks down each vehicle by year, make, and model and identifies the potential hazards. One department that I am aware of has their chief notify the first in engine of the pertinent info and they look it up prior to arrival. It works for them.
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    Smokey,I feel your pain.That's why my post had the standard disclaimer"Whenever possible".But I'm still for a single cut with a tieback/insulate.Allows a repower to emergency services IF REQUIRED.And I know that's not what our moderator suggests but it is not the first nor the last time that we might not necessarily be in agreement on a subject.Nor do I believe that either method is "carved in stone".All plans must have some flexibility in them or life gets pretty tough.Chief Moore is an Extricator with a knowledge of towing and I'm a towing company owner with a pretty decent grasp on vehicle rescue.Including a few methods Fire/Rescue folks find radical until they see them work.And I'm learning everyday thanks to folks like you who question the "norm".I've got plenty of junk to play with so as time allows we are able to test some of our theories that we present here on the drill field.Everybody wins.Same as the BRR class,the students challenge us,we go back and look it all over,apply numbers and solutions and make the system better.Billy spends a lot of time with Dynos and testing to be able to offer the proper numbers and the best workable solutions to problems using commonly available equipment.I love working with the guy because he keeps me on top of the game and I get plenty of "homework".Round 7 at NHFA next weekend.I can hardly wait. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 10-09-2006 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    Is this still true? Someone the other day mentioned that while this was true for first-generation air bag systems, most modern systems discharge within 10-15 seconds. I haven't have a chance to look more into it, just something that came up in conversation.
    I don't think there is one "correct" answer for every vehicle. Here is a list I was able to find on OSHA's site:

    EXHIBIT 2

    Deactivation Times for Air Bag Back-up Power Supply

    MAKE TIME

    Acura 15 Seconds
    Bentley 30 Minutes
    BMW 20 Minutes
    Chrysler 9.5 Minutes
    Ford see below*
    GM 10 Minutes
    Isuzu 10 Minutes
    Lexus 20 Seconds
    Mazda 10 Minutes
    Mercedes 1 Second
    Mitsubishi 30 Seconds
    Nissan 10 Minutes
    Porsche 10 Minutes
    Rolls Royce 30 Minutes
    Saab 20 Minutes
    Toyota 20 Seconds
    Volvo 10 Seconds
    VW (Audi) 10 Seconds
    VW(Cabriolet) 10 Minutes

    *MY 1985-89 = 0; MY 1990 = 15 Minutes; MY 1991 =
    1 minute if positive battery cable is shorted to
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    The longer capacitor drain down times tend to be found on the older vehicles equipped with airbags.. 1980's to early 1990's. I know that on some of the older Jaguars and Benltey/Rolls Royce it could be as long as 30 minutes for a complete drain down. The average drain down time now is 15 to 30 seconds, which means the capacitor should be down by the time we get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    Is this still true? Someone the other day mentioned that while this was true for first-generation air bag systems, most modern systems discharge within 10-15 seconds. I haven't have a chance to look more into it, just something that came up in conversation.
    Yes, it is still true unfortunately. Yes, there are some with rapid drain times. But it not the majority and there is no placard on the car stating the actual time.

    Great point about the terminal location.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYSmokey
    Take a look at the Holmatro USA website. They sell a book (Rescuers Guide to Vehicle Safety Systems?) that might be helpful. .
    The link provide to thesceneoftheaccident.org has ERG's which include the breakdown for air bag/gas strut/battery locations and drain times (Emergency Response Guides on the left side)

    All of this is FREE!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityfire7
    The link provide to thesceneoftheaccident.org has ERG's which include the breakdown for air bag/gas strut/battery locations and drain times (Emergency Response Guides on the left side)

    All of this is FREE!!!!
    FREE is good I took a look at the Dayton video and didn't have time to really look into the rest of the site. I'll make sure I do.
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    Don't know if anybody has had this problem, or if it is true, but on a training video on firehouse they also stated that after disconnecting battery to check to see if cell phone, or any other portable equipment with a battery may be plugged into the cigaret lighter that may back feed and keep air bags energized, never realy gave this a thought until see this video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djgilbert32
    Don't know if anybody has had this problem, or if it is true, but on a training video on firehouse they also stated that after disconnecting battery to check to see if cell phone, or any other portable equipment with a battery may be plugged into the cigaret lighter that may back feed and keep air bags energized, never realy gave this a thought until see this video.

    i never would have thought of that. ya learn something new everyday
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    it would greatly depend on the design of the device plugged into the lighter plug. Most devices you plug in there will NOT do that, however it would be good practice to unplug it anyway.

    Hell, the stupid phone was probably the cause of the accident in the first place.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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