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    Default Professional FF's of Massachusetts & Deval Patrick

    I heard an unconfirmed rumor that the PFFM has endorsed Deval Patrick. Nothing on their web-site. Do any of the other PFFM members know if this is true? Thanks.

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    He's a democrat right? Then of course the PFFM and IAFF back him! What a joke, the IAFF is the largest Union in the country who's majority of membership are registered republicans. While I'm no GW supporter I remember the IAFF and PFFM supporting John Kerry too!

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    I don't know whether you're on the job in MA or in the PFFM but the reason I'm asking is there was a lot of speculation that they weren't going to endorse anybody this time because Patrick is a lunatic.

    While I agree with most of what you've said you haven't really added anything helpful.

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    I'm glad to hear that atleast they are considering no endorsement vs. always endorsing the democrat no matter what? I'm not a member of the PFFM, but I was a member and past local pres. in the IAFF and was consistantly annoyed with the polcitics as usual within.

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    Deval Patrick a lunatic? Come on. No more of a lunatic than Shannon O'Brien was last time around.

    I have to agree, as a former member of 2 Massachusetts locals (and thereby a member of the PFFM) I have to say that the PFFM has yet to endorse any candidate that I know of with an (R) after their name in any of these types of races.

    Maybe they will get smart and realize that supporting a candidate does nothing to help the candidate in the view of the general public, but only benefits them (sometimes) with state/local spending issues.

    While Patrick is running all over the state spouting off that he will put 1,000 new police officers on the streets with state money, he is wooing every freaking politician in every city and police unions seem to be flocking to support him. Putting 1,000 LEOs on the streets of Massachusetts is a drop in the bucket; especially given that Boston is 200-300 officers UNDER their city-mandated staffing.

    While I may no longer live in Massachusetts, and currently have no desire to move back.........If Deval Patrick is elected, I know that I will not move back there. And I think that you will see a lot more people move out of Massachusetts for a lot of reasons - not to mention that your taxes will go up, the jobs will leave, and people can live better elsewhere. Despite what teh Dems in Mass. say - it is not Romney's fault that people are leaving, it is the atmosphere there and the cost of living.
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    There's really been no other option in the years I've been involved in the PFFM and MA politics other than supporting Dems. After all, we work to elect our friends and defeat our enemies. What Republican candidate has not wanted to gut the retirement system and weaken Civil Service? The current candidate, Kerry Healy, is said to have been shocked-shocked! to learn that some communities have more than one person on a fire truck.

    The PFFM, IAFF, or any other union should look at how a candidate will support their goals before endorsing them. If Massachusetts Republicans want the firefighters' support, they'll have to start supporting us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    There's really been no other option in the years I've been involved in the PFFM and MA politics other than supporting Dems. After all, we work to elect our friends and defeat our enemies.

    And look where it has gotten them? Not saying that I disagree with your point, just that I disagree with unions in general getting their hands into the political mix.

    It has just as much likelihood of backfiring as it would to help. I think that this applies especially at the local community level.


    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    What Republican candidate has not wanted to gut the retirement system and weaken Civil Service?
    True. I agree 100%. However, some of it needs to be reformed. And with the underfunding of the retirement system that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the local communities have done for years.

    So it is just like Social Security, you fix it now or you fix it later. Either way someone will bitch and it won't be pretty.

    But these communities and the state need to step up to the plate for their own failings in the past. Won't hold my breath on that happening, but it just might some day.


    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    The current candidate, Kerry Healy, is said to have been shocked-shocked! to learn that some communities have more than one person on a fire truck.
    "Is said to...." Firm it up a bit and it might be believable. Either way, your choices for governor...........um.........Suck. The people deserve the government they elect. Just don't bitch when the budgets go South, the taxes go up, and guys get cut. An inevitability given the track record of Massachusetts politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    The PFFM, IAFF, or any other union should look at how a candidate will support their goals before endorsing them. If Massachusetts Republicans want the firefighters' support, they'll have to start supporting us.
    Politicians should do what is right, not what a union or group wants them to do. Doesn't happen, and likely won't happen - but that is how it should work.

    I just think that the unions and the PFFM would be better off shutting their mouths and not endorsing any candidate. I don't see much benefit in doing so (in results.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    And look where it has gotten them? Not saying that I disagree with your point, just that I disagree with unions in general getting their hands into the political mix. Well, it has gotten a guy with a high school diploma a $70,000 a year job, without having to know the mayor or hold signs for the city councilor. Pretty good if you ask me.
    Fire Dept's are such political animals that it is naive to think any union local should stay out of politics.


    It has just as much likelihood of backfiring as it would to help. I think that this applies especially at the local community level.
    Tell that to the guys in the Worcester local.

    True. I agree 100%. However, some of it needs to be reformed. Hmm, how come just about everyone who wants to "reform" Civil Service doesn't have a Civil Service Job?


    "Is said to...." Firm it up a bit and it might be believable. Uh, I didn't cite any sources 'cause I wasn't submitting it to Newsweek, I was throwing it out semi-anonymously on an internet website. Do you footnote your posts? Also, there's a difference between verifiable and believable. I haven't heard any reporter verify the remark, but it's very believable.

    Either way, your choices for governor...........um.........Suck. The people deserve the government they elect. Just don't bitch when the budgets go South, the taxes go up, and guys get cut. An inevitability given the track record of Massachusetts politics. It would be interesting to compare firefighter benefits, salaries, and manning levels in MA to wherever you are now. Usually, we compare pretty well with the right-to-work states.



    Politicians should do what is right, not what a union or group wants them to do. Doesn't happen, and likely won't happen - but that is how it should work.
    Politicians shouldn't do what the people who elected them tell them to do?? who gets to decide what's "right"?
    .................................................. ..................................

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    I just wanted to know if the PFFM had endorsed Patrick or not.

    Personally, I don't agree with him. I think that his views are radical.

    If you believe that illegal aliens should get in-state college tuition, have drivers licenses, be provided with public housing and benefit from affirmative action programs in the name of "diversity" than he is probably a decent candidate. If you also believe that we do not pay enough in taxes, and Canada has an effective, well-run health care system than he's a great candidate.

    By the way, saying that Healy was "shocked-shocked" that fire apparatus had more than one person means nothing. It's simply hearsay and should not be taken with any confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastFF
    I just wanted to know if the PFFM had endorsed Patrick or not.

    Personally, I don't agree with him. I think that his views are radical.

    If you believe that illegal aliens should get in-state college tuition, have drivers licenses, be provided with public housing and benefit from affirmative action programs in the name of "diversity" than he is probably a decent candidate. If you also believe that we do not pay enough in taxes, and Canada has an effective, well-run health care system than he's a great candidate.

    By the way, saying that Healy was "shocked-shocked" that fire apparatus had more than one person means nothing. It's simply hearsay and should not be taken with any confidence.
    Unfortunately, it's the mindset of many a politician. They think the BRT puts out the fire. I have it from a very relaible source I work with at the Academy that Kerry Healy actually asked the following question at an EMS 2000 public hearing...

    "Why does an ambulance need two EMT's or Paramedics to staff it...can't they get by with just one?"
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastFF
    I just wanted to know if the PFFM had endorsed Patrick or not.

    Personally, I don't agree with him. I think that his views are radical.

    If you believe that illegal aliens should get in-state college tuition, have drivers licenses, be provided with public housing and benefit from affirmative action programs in the name of "diversity" than he is probably a decent candidate. If you also believe that we do not pay enough in taxes, and Canada has an effective, well-run health care system than he's a great candidate.

    By the way, saying that Healy was "shocked-shocked" that fire apparatus had more than one person means nothing. It's simply hearsay and should not be taken with any confidence.
    Why the hell should the PFFM care about anybody's stance on illegal aliens? What do you think Marie Antoinette-Healy would do for us? Anything good? Also, please supply the citation for your claim that Deval Patrick has publicly admired how Canadian health care is administered. Otherwise, it's simply hearsay and should not be taken with any confidence.

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    The PFFM should absolutely care for one reason: illegal aliens are taking away UNION jobs! Why should businesses hire union carpenters, masons, waiters, hotel housekeepers, etc., etc., when they can get the same for a lesser price through illegals!

    I don't know what town you're in but if it's in SE MA I'm realtively sure that it's at least somewhat economically depressed (IE New Bedford or Fall River). When are these communities going to realize that no one at the state house really cares about them? It's sort of like being out in Springfield or the Berkshires, you're forgotten about! The only time anyone pays attention to those cities is around election time. Now, if this offends you I'm sorry, but it's true. Kerry may not be the totally ideal candidate for us but given the choices she is the best we've got.

    Take sometime and read Deval's web. The similarities that he's suggesting between his plan and Canada's are striking. By this I mean he would provide coverge for anyone not already covered by Medicare or Medicaid. This is comparable to Canada's system in that everyone is covered. Most people who know would agree that Canada's system is not a crowning achievement.

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    But the only reason that a union backs a candidate is becasue of the issues directly related to law enforcement or fire suppression, or this or that.

    And I am not saying that unions should not be political - just that they should not publicly endorse a candidate. First off, no one really gives a damn about it. Secondly, if your candidate loses the winner has a long memory and they the union bitches about how they are getting screwed over by them. Go talk to the folks in Fitchburg and see how things have been working out with Dan Mylott.


    And I did have a civil service job when I was living in Massachusetts. All I am saying is that some things do need to be tweaked every now and then, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, but they still need to be addressed.

    And comparing benefits and salaries is OK, but a livable wage in Florida, North Carolina, or Tennessee is a lot less than a wage needed to survive in Boston, NYC, or other places. Staffing is staffing, but when I tell people where I live now that I was laid off as a firefighter, they can't believe or understand it. In Massachusetts shutting down companies and cutting manpower is the norm. Not that I agree with it necessarily. Talk to the guys in Fitchburg again who work without a ladder company in one of the most densely packed areas in Mass. Or the guys in Gloucester who shut down a house and a woman died in that response district last week. Or the guys in springfield who were gutted a few years ago. This most certainly affects staffing, manning, equipment, and stations.

    And unions, PACs, and organizations do not elect people. Individual citizens elect people which is the point of the thread. The political opinions of the PFFM, IAFF, IBPA, IBEO, UAW, AFL-CIO do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the membership. Yet the membership lets these people tell them what to vote for and who to vote for.

    The PFFM most certainly did not reflect the views of about 80% of the guys working on my department when they supported Shannon O'Brien.

    And even if the PFFM does choose to support Deval Patrick it does nto guarantee a damned thing from his administration. This is the crux of my point.
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    Got this the other day--


    Dear PFFM Union Member:

    A reminder that Tuesday, November 7, 2006 is Election Day. Please make every effort to vote. Please remind your family members, co-workers, and friends to go to the polls and vote on Tuesday, November 7, 2006.

    We, as a union, have not formally endorsed a candidate for the office of Governor. We are confident you will vote for the person who will support our principals, Goals, and objectives to work in a safe environment with a Collective Bargaining agreement that is fair and equitable and a pension assuring our members can retire with respect and dignity.

    We would be remiss if we did not inform you that in our opinion, Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey should not be considered for your vote for Governor. Kerry Healy’s actions as Lieutenant Governor over the past few years have been detrimental to you and our members. The Romney-Kerry Healey administration has a record of being anti-union, anti-public employee and anti-fire service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    Got this the other day--


    Dear PFFM Union Member:

    A reminder that Tuesday, November 7, 2006 is Election Day. Please make every effort to vote. Please remind your family members, co-workers, and friends to go to the polls and vote on Tuesday, November 7, 2006.

    We, as a union, have not formally endorsed a candidate for the office of Governor. We are confident you will vote for the person who will support our principals, Goals, and objectives to work in a safe environment with a Collective Bargaining agreement that is fair and equitable and a pension assuring our members can retire with respect and dignity.

    We would be remiss if we did not inform you that in our opinion, Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey should not be considered for your vote for Governor. Kerry Healy’s actions as Lieutenant Governor over the past few years have been detrimental to you and our members. The Romney-Kerry Healey administration has a record of being anti-union, anti-public employee and anti-fire service.

    Good thing they're not formally endorsing a candidate... Just bad mouthing the one they don't like ! Ah, politics at it's best...

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    Clancy-

    It is simply amazing that so many think that unions should just stick their head in the sand and that endorsements of canidates and support of politicians never got anyone anywhere.

    The reality is that politics is what makes this country go around and unless one wants to get left behind, they better take part and make their voice heard. Many benefits firemen have today is from the political activisim of the Union leaders of years gone by.

    Best of luck in this years elections to all Firefighters Locals.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Clancy-

    It is simply amazing that so many think that unions should just stick their head in the sand and that endorsements of canidates and support of politicians never got anyone anywhere.

    The reality is that politics is what makes this country go around and unless one wants to get left behind, they better take part and make their voice heard. Many benefits firemen have today is from the political activisim of the Union leaders of years gone by.

    Best of luck in this years elections to all Firefighters Locals.

    FTM-PTB

    I never said that it never got anyone anywhere. I am saying that it is a double edged sword. As I said, talk to the folks on the departments that I mentioned. You may push for your political agenda, your needs, and the betterment of your profession - but I disagree with sitting up there on a rostrum and say that we support Joe Shmoe.

    Then, when Joe Shmoe loses you act like someone ****ed in your Corn Flakes and mope and whine and complain that nothing will get done and how Joe Shmuckatelli will do nothing for you now. You get no sympathy out of me.

    And that statement by the PFFM is pretty stupid. We do not endorse any candidate, but you should not vote for this one. Pretty freaking stupid.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    No offense, but I hate to put the IAFF in the same class as other unions for the most part. I agree totally with what unions were founded for, but they've gotten way out of hand. It seems the IAFF is one of the few that hasn't gotten to that extreme.

    I'm not sure that the union should be supporting particular candidates, it's a double edges sword as has been mentions. I'm all for supporting various bills and propositions, etc. that will help us do our jobs and ensure our safety. But to be a part of what's become a very dirty political process I think is rather dangerous. And then to be mad because the other party (that wasn't supported) doesn't support the unions endeavors is somewhat silly.

    We've been dealing with different kind of BS in Missouri, where two IAFF locals have come out in support of Amendment 2 (stem cell research). They have FF's on this TV add saying that "Missouri's firefighters" support this amendment. To me, that's taking it beyond what should be (I've yet to talk to a firefighter I know that supports it,, not that I've made a valiant effot to discuss it). That's fine if Local xxx supports it, but don't lump me into the entire bunch. The same goes for candidates. I support the majority of what our union publically stands up for (probably 99%), but I don't support a lot of the candidates they do. It drives me nuts to have people come up to me and ask why I support so-and-so just because I'm an IAFF member.

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    How about that John Kerry? Another good example of an IAFF endorsed candidate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    I never said that it never got anyone anywhere. I am saying that it is a double edged sword. As I said, talk to the folks on the departments that I mentioned. You may push for your political agenda, your needs, and the betterment of your profession - but I disagree with sitting up there on a rostrum and say that we support Joe Shmoe.

    Then, when Joe Shmoe loses you act like someone ****ed in your Corn Flakes and mope and whine and complain that nothing will get done and how Joe Shmuckatelli will do nothing for you now. You get no sympathy out of me.

    And that statement by the PFFM is pretty stupid. We do not endorse any candidate, but you should not vote for this one. Pretty freaking stupid.
    Perhaps politically that was the best way they could get their desired message across. Pretty freaking smart if you ask me. I'd bet they knew exactly what they were doing and intended it to sound just as it did. How many canidates are in that race?

    My former local has been getting shafted in the past few years. Too many members don't want to step up and make themselves heard. They've lost promised pay increases, lost health benefits for them and their families in retirement. This is in a right-to-work state where the employer does everything unilaterally and these guys have no other recourse but to get involved polticially. Too many are afraid or unwilling to act and nothing will change there until they start influencing elections and issues around there.

    The founders of my current local, were harrassed and transfered constantly to get them to back down...they didn't and the men that followed them didn't either. That is why I have the benefits I have today. The battle is never ending and even today we are fighting to get what we deserve to support our families.

    Of course it is a double-edged sword...you have to take the good with the bad...but if you don't get involved at all...you are only going to get the bad and certainly no good.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Perhaps politically that was the best way they could get their desired message across. Pretty freaking smart if you ask me. I'd bet they knew exactly what they were doing and intended it to sound just as it did. How many canidates are in that race?

    My former local has been getting shafted in the past few years. Too many members don't want to step up and make themselves heard. They've lost promised pay increases, lost health benefits for them and their families in retirement. This is in a right-to-work state where the employer does everything unilaterally and these guys have no other recourse but to get involved polticially. Too many are afraid or unwilling to act and nothing will change there until they start influencing elections and issues around there.

    The founders of my current local, were harrassed and transfered constantly to get them to back down...they didn't and the men that followed them didn't either. That is why I have the benefits I have today. The battle is never ending and even today we are fighting to get what we deserve to support our families.

    Of course it is a double-edged sword...you have to take the good with the bad...but if you don't get involved at all...you are only going to get the bad and certainly no good.

    FTM-PTB

    I am not saying to not get involved as a member of a local. I just disagree with that local or the state or national body picking a candidate, the candidate loses, and then boo hoo we get the shaft.

    I am not saying that it is right to treat supporters of your political rival in such a manner, but it happens enough that you know that it will happen to you when the time comes. So why invite it?

    No endorsement by any person, union, political group, hack, dimwit, scumbag or whatever is going to change my opinion. I will base my decision on my beliefs of how that person will do for me as an elected representative.

    And most people do as well. It only benefits the group if the person wins, but it will kill you if they lose.

    And your local members deserve what they get if they do not want to fight for what is right and can't see the long term matters will come to effect them. Sadly, you have to suffer for their lack of interest and involvement. And that is truly pathetic.
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    The sad part is that people would vote for a candidate because a group they support backed him/her. To bad people couldn't take the time to educate themselves on the issues and the candidates and vote on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02
    The sad part is that people would vote for a candidate because a group they support backed him/her. To bad people couldn't take the time to educate themselves on the issues and the candidates and vote on their own.

    Part of the influence Unions and other groups have historically comes directly from a group be it union or otherwise in being able to deliver a large block of votes to a canidate they are backing.

    Unions back those canidates who will help their members thus the members see the benefits and then relect the union leaders that supported certain canidates and the cycle repeats....thus they need the votes to get you benefits.

    Some may not like it but that is how it works to some degree.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Some may not like it but that is how it works to some degree.

    FTM-PTB
    But the degree to which that is effective is not as high as it once was, and it gets less and less every election cycle.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    WHY?! I don't get it?!

    I won't impose my own preference BUT, if they are going to make a move like this, you might as well endorse the candidate who holds a double digit lead over the opponent. If you stick your neck out, you should at least be able to remind the candidate that you did endorse him (oops, did I give it away?)

    Endorsements are a holdover from the past when a union would convince its members that a particular candidate was best for them, AND THEY LISTENED. People are more informed on the issues now as we get FOUR televised debates (Presidential only gets three).Sorry, that letter would not dissuade me from voting for the outgoing lt. gov. if that was my personal choice.

    It is fitting, however, in a race that has been more about not voting for the other candidate than for a party's platform that a letter like this would be sent.

    Fred, 4 candidates, 2 viable with one far behind and sinking quickly. I read an article in the Globe recently that claimed the Dem candidate was ahead as much as 25 points despite the electorate disagreeing with his stance on crime, immigration, taxes and education (what else is there? See Big Dig and above paragraph).

    And yes, I agree, support issues and HELP candidates who care, don't just "endorse" them
    Last edited by orangehopeful; 11-02-2006 at 11:41 AM.

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