1. #1
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    Default First-in Engine on MFD

    I've got a question on a theoretical scenario:
    Dispatched to an apartment fire. First-in Engine's approach is from a main road along Division-C (rear) of the apartment building. The driveway/Court is past the building and swings along Division-D to the entraces on Div-A. On arrival the engine finds that heavy fire has vented the window of a 1st floor, middle of the row, apartment.
    Based on that, the first in Engine should:
    1) Stop the engine on Division-C on the main road, do a quick knock from the exterior through the window while a leader line is stretched to Division-A to make entry. This gets water on the fire quickly, darkens the fire in the back room and keeps it from extending up to Division-2. It also could push the fire back to potentially unburned areas of the apartment, and steam any victims.
    2) Pass the building, enter the court and attack the fire through the entrace in Division-A. This may delay getting water on the fire, but pushes the fire from unburned to burned. It provides a better 360-sizeup. It also allows a search to occur while the line is advanced so the chance of steaming victims is less. It may also push the fire out the window and hasten auto-exposure up to Division-2.
    3) Some combination of both options
    4) Something completely different.
    Also, would the distance/time of travel before entering the court effect the decisions? What if the engine had to pass the fire building on the main road, turn into the development, then turn into the court (say extra 1/4 mile).

    Thanks
    Last edited by voyager9; 10-20-2006 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Mixed Division D with C

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    ..........................
    Last edited by Nine3Probie; 07-28-2013 at 06:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nine3Probie
    What's my manpower? Do I have 4 or 6 guys on my engine?
    What's the distance from the engine on the D side to the structure...then to the main entrance? Will my attack line reach the entrance on the A side and be able to stretch through the building?
    How close is the 2nd and 3rd due? Where's my Truck arriving (2nd, 3rd or 4th due)? What is their manpower?
    For this exercise, lets say 4-man crew.
    The distance from Engine in the middle of *Division-B*, around Div-D, to middle of Division-A is too far for a preconnect, but was close enough for a 3" leader with wye and extended with 1 3/4" metro/hi-rise pack for attack.
    Both 2nd (Truck) and 3rd (Engine) are about 5/7 minutes further out.
    NOTE: I mixed up Div-D, with Div-C in original post, will go back and edit.
    Last edited by voyager9; 10-20-2006 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    I've got a question on a theoretical scenario:
    Dispatched to an apartment fire. First-in Engine's approach is from a main road along Division-D of the apartment building. The driveway/Court is past the building and swings along Division-C to the entraces on Div-A. On arrival the engine finds that heavy fire has vented the window of a 1st floor, middle of the row, apartment.
    Based on that, the first in Engine should:
    1) Stop the engine on Division-D on the main road, do a quick knock from the exterior through the window while a leader line is stretched to Division-A to make entry. This gets water on the fire quickly, darkens the fire in the back room and keeps it from extending up to Division-2. It also could push the fire back to potentially unburned areas of the apartment, and steam any victims.
    2) Pass the building, enter the court and attack the fire through the entrace in Division-A. This may delay getting water on the fire, but pushes the fire from unburned to burned. It provides a better 360-sizeup. It also allows a search to occur while the line is advanced so the chance of steaming victims is less. It may also push the fire out the window and hasten auto-exposure up to Division-2.
    3) Some combination of both options
    4) Something completely different.
    Also, would the distance/time of travel before entering the court effect the decisions? What if the engine had to pass the fire building on the main road, turn into the development, then turn into the court (say extra 1/4 mile).

    Thanks
    Very simple...

    Stretch a line via the main staircase and begin the attack from the main entrance to the apartment.

    Meanwhile the MPO should secure a water supply and the Trucks should do what they always do.

    FTM-PTB

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    Despite a lot of variables,...

    Enter into the driveway and positon at the front of the building. Stretch and advance the first line to the seat of the fire. If you have a ladder truck responding with you (immediately behind you), then the engine needs to pull over and allow the ladder truck to enter the driveway and court first.

    Building area and configuration as well as low staffing may prevent running a leader line, as does whether or not you have hydrants located in the court and if they are giving you a sufficient flow. The time spent entering the court shouldn't have that much of an impact to cause you to deviate from the norm. When in doubt follow the basics. It is stated that the fire is accessible (first floor, middle of the row) and has already vented itself from one window.
    Additionally, if you position everyone on the main road in the rear, you may have blocked that road (depending on its size) with the first two or three pieces of apparatus.

    It's when you rush and try something usually not done, that mistakes are made.

    William Carey
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

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    Cool What I'd do......

    Based on what you have presented, I would go with #3. I would pass the structure and make the attack from the unburned to the burned, however I would still lead with a 2 1/2" or 3" "Deep Stretch" line and put a gated wye on it. This gives my FFs the option of hitting the fire hard with the Deep Stretch line or setting up the line with a gated wye for a line to protect the immediate exposure(s).
    Depending on how the heat and smoke is, the Truck does what Truckies do. My next due Engine will either be assigned to protect the Exposures or end up helpin' the Truck with Search and Rescue/Evacuations.
    We run four personnel on all of our equipment, except for the Chiefs.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Exclamation

    Why do we still get stuck on the "unburned to burned side"? Attack the fire and extinguish it in place, don't push it out of the building! What if the fire started in the rear, are you going to go in the back door? That's old school 1 1/2" tactics.

    As FFFRED stated its a no brainer. First line goes through the main entrance and gets between the occupants and/or stairs and the fire. Residential fire attack is as close as we can come to saying "we do it like this, everytime". Through the front door!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02
    Why do we still get stuck on the "unburned to burned side"? Attack the fire and extinguish it in place, don't push it out of the building! What if the fire started in the rear, are you going to go in the back door? That's old school 1 1/2" tactics.
    If it started in the rear, then making the attack from the main entrance would be pushing it from the "unburned" side, so I'm a little confused by your above statement. It seems contradictatory. Either way, if the fire in the rear has already vented the window, then attacking it from the front may "push it out the building". My concern there was that it could hasten auto-exposure up to Division2/roof.

    Would travel-distance between the front and rear change the decsion between #1 and #2? I can think of situations where the rear of the building is along a main road, but the entraces face a court that is well into a development.

    The general concensus seems to be attack from the front, which was kind of my thought too but wanted to get other opinions. Is there ever a situation where a quick knock from the exterior would be the preferred tactic (prior to teams making entry)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    Is there ever a situation where a quick knock from the exterior would be the preferred tactic (prior to teams making entry)?

    Only when the bulk of the fire is confined to the exterior of the structure, or signs of imminent collapse are evident. Otherwise, get your butt in there!




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    here's a question what do you do with 2 on an engina. in my dept we role with 1 firefighter and a LT. we usually do a transitional with either a 2 1/2 or an 1 3/4 the larger line usually does not allow fire to be pushed since your drowning the fire with tons of water.

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    Here, first engine takes the front and second takes the rear regardless of location of the fire. If the fire is in the front - we go in the front. If the fire is in a rear room - we go in the front. This is how it's done here 90% of the time.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    If it started in the rear, then making the attack from the main entrance would be pushing it from the "unburned" side, so I'm a little confused by your above statement. It seems contradictatory. Either way, if the fire in the rear has already vented the window, then attacking it from the front may "push it out the building". My concern there was that it could hasten auto-exposure up to Division2/roof.
    you are a little confused.

    if it's burning in the rear of the structure, then entering through the front door and push the fire out the rear. this way, your pushing the fire out the rear windows, where it is already burning. similarly, if the rear was burning, and you begin your push at the rear, you will be pushing the fire through the unburned part of the building.

    plus, I think it's a smaller risk for you to push it out the window and risk autoexposing to division 2, then having it stay in side, where the heat just stays inside, and and cause an exposure from inside the structure.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    For this scenario, we can drop the whole where-to-attack the fire discussion.

    The key part is this:

    First-in Engine's approach is from a main road along Division-C (rear)

    They see flames, but have no idea at this point what they have for a situation, because their blind to the rest of the incident.

    And besides, your mission at this point isn't putting the wetstuff on the red stuff -- it's life safety and protecting the means of egress. Get to the front door and protect the stairs and hall.

    "Hey Chief, we're knocking it down on Side C!"

    "Great, could you tell me whose gonna put a line on the propane delivery truck that drove through Side A and started this?" Yeah, far fetched...but the training scenarios sometimes come true.


    ======================


    This is side "C" of the building. Daytime fire in a rural / bedroom suburb community; Red Flag Conditions which played a major role in this structure fire -- the iginition source was smoking material disposed of in the mulch of a potted plant on a deck on the 2nd floor, side C. On arrival, fire had entered floors 2, 3, 4 and the attic with sprinkler activations on all floors. Thank God for sprinklers working.

    1st due unit, an Engine, followed protocol and went to the front entrance. Pump operator hit the hydrant (located next to where he parked) and hand stretched supply lines to the FDC while was sent in with a stair pack to work from a standpipe. Of course at this point, there's barely one interior crew with fire on three floors on an occupied elderly housing complex.

    2nd due unit, the Ladder shown, arrived driver-only. He hand jacked a few hundred feet of 4" to a hydrant, setup the aerial, and had another member join him as a pump operator and they hit the external fire with an approximately 30 second "wash" to knock down the fire with the ladder pipe. Don't aim for the windows -- wash the walls, the 4x4s on the deck with a low-pressure stream with the goal being that water "bouncing" would knock down the source of flames heat the wind was driving into the building, without itself contributing to pushing the fire more than the wind was already.

    Given the scale of the situation, and the manpower situation at that time of day that was a calculated risk to knock down the external fire on the siding and three decks "gently" without pushing more fire into involved areas.

    Which illustrates two points relative here --
    1) Despite a situation that was hopeless for quickly getting manpower on all floors like a textbook attack, the 1st due still followed protocol to do the best they could, re-inforce the sprinklers, and get an interior size-up. Even with a heavy automatic-aid 1st Alarm card, SFD fires sometimes stretch resources thin that time of day. 2nd & 3rd Alarm resources will be pushing 15, 20 minute response times.

    2) There was an interior size-up of the situation before the high-risk outside knockdown was initiated.

    Know what you're dealing with, and let other people know what you're about to do, before you vary from your standard practices!
    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 10-22-2006 at 08:14 PM.

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    As brother FFRED stated.....stretch up the interior staircase to the fire apt and attack it...pretty simple.

    With the pic above....same thing.....1st line to the fire floor....2d to the floor above, and so on.....
    IACOJ Member

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    I would say pull around to the front of the building. I would do this for a couple of reasons. 1. being that you now get to see 3 sides of the building and your company officer only has to walk to the 1 unseen side, 2. if this is the front then it will probably be a shorter stretch, 3. in my first due area the FDC is on the front of the appartment buildings. I would pull slightly past the apt building so that I left room for the tower. I would pull an attack line to the apt of orgin and attack it starting there and pushing it out the back. I would have the truck do what they do, and have the second in eng pull the back up line that protects the stairwell and occupants coming down the stairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    I've got a question on a theoretical scenario:
    Dispatched to an apartment fire. First-in Engine's approach is from a main road along Division-C (rear) of the apartment building. The driveway/Court is past the building and swings along Division-D to the entraces on Div-A. On arrival the engine finds that heavy fire has vented the window of a 1st floor, middle of the row, apartment.
    Based on that, the first in Engine should:
    1) Stop the engine on Division-C on the main road, do a quick knock from the exterior through the window while a leader line is stretched to Division-A to make entry. This gets water on the fire quickly, darkens the fire in the back room and keeps it from extending up to Division-2. It also could push the fire back to potentially unburned areas of the apartment, and steam any victims.
    2) Pass the building, enter the court and attack the fire through the entrace in Division-A. This may delay getting water on the fire, but pushes the fire from unburned to burned. It provides a better 360-sizeup. It also allows a search to occur while the line is advanced so the chance of steaming victims is less. It may also push the fire out the window and hasten auto-exposure up to Division-2.
    3) Some combination of both options
    4) Something completely different.
    Also, would the distance/time of travel before entering the court effect the decisions? What if the engine had to pass the fire building on the main road, turn into the development, then turn into the court (say extra 1/4 mile).

    Thanks
    In most cases, putting the fire out saves the most lives but,

    Do you have a preplan for this facility?
    Has it regularly been inspected?
    Does your initial sizeup reflect the conditions on the interior of the building?
    What are you going to do with all of the people coming out of the building?
    Will they need immediate medical attention that will overwhelm first due companies?
    Is this a MCI?
    What are you going to do if the fire has extended out of the compartment?
    What are you going to do with the occupants in the adjacent apartments and the aparment above the fire?
    Do you know how long it takes your crews to place a leader line in service?
    Do you know how long it takes your crews to place 1.75 inch line in service?
    Do you know the occupancy type?
    Do you know the layout of the building? Is the fire where you think it is?
    Do you know the construction type of the building? What is the potential for rapid extension via void spaces?
    How long has the fire been burning?
    Is there potiential for isolated collpase?
    Do your engines carry 500 gallons of water or 1000 gallons of water?
    Under which command mode are you going to operate?
    Do you have the staff to or need to establish an IRIT?
    Is the building sprinklered? Is there a FDC?
    What is your staffing and do you have the resourses to initiate an interior attack?
    What is your GPM flow rate?
    Do you know how to calculate a needed flow rate?
    What is the experience level of your crew? Can they handle this incident?
    Do we need to forget all of this crap and go put the fire out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefChip
    In most cases, putting the fire out saves the most lives but,

    Do you have a preplan for this facility?
    Has it regularly been inspected?
    Does your initial sizeup reflect the conditions on the interior of the building?
    What are you going to do with all of the people coming out of the building?
    Will they need immediate medical attention that will overwhelm first due companies?
    Is this a MCI?
    What are you going to do if the fire has extended out of the compartment?
    What are you going to do with the occupants in the adjacent apartments and the aparment above the fire?
    Do you know how long it takes your crews to place a leader line in service?
    Do you know how long it takes your crews to place 1.75 inch line in service?
    Do you know the occupancy type?
    Do you know the layout of the building? Is the fire where you think it is?
    Do you know the construction type of the building? What is the potential for rapid extension via void spaces?
    How long has the fire been burning?
    Is there potiential for isolated collpase?
    Do your engines carry 500 gallons of water or 1000 gallons of water?
    Under which command mode are you going to operate?
    Do you have the staff to or need to establish an IRIT?
    Is the building sprinklered? Is there a FDC?
    What is your staffing and do you have the resourses to initiate an interior attack?
    What is your GPM flow rate?
    Do you know how to calculate a needed flow rate?
    What is the experience level of your crew? Can they handle this incident?
    Do we need to forget all of this crap and go put the fire out?
    Damn right Chief!!

    And for those of you talking about it, if you pull an appropriate line, one that is going to put the fire out, you don't have to worry about "pushing" the fire around.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    A little more information would be helpful, but this sounds very much like a “bread and butter” fire. Is there an entrance to the central stairwell on Side 3(C)? Will taking a position on Side 1(A) hinder or block out other companies, particularly the first due truck? Where is the closest hydrant located? Does this department normally complete a forward lay from the hydrant to the fire, or “reverse lay” from the fire to hydrant?

    IMO the best option is go to Side 1(A) getting a more complete size-up in the process. Don’t forget to leave room for the truck. The critical thing is that the first hoseline is stretched by way of the interior stairs to protect the means of egress for the occupants. Don’t over analyze this; protect the stairs, confine the fire, then extinguish.

    While it may seem expedient, directing a stream through a window on Side 3(C) could have the unwanted effect of allowing extension to the rest of the apartment as well as compromising the stairwell. I wouldn’t be concerned about increasing the auto-exposure potential. As soon as the water hits the fire and it darkens down, the auto-exposure problem is usually diminished greatly. If staffing is a problem the second engine must assist the first in stretching the initial line.

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    I'd pass by, head to the main entrance and enter from there. You're going to have to wait until somebody can get a 360 on this thing anyway to do any sort of smart attack, unless you have gleaned information from some other reliable source. Hitting it from the rear without having anyone out front brings a whole host of issues to mind. As others have stated, you run the risk of pushing the fire, burning victims, not having enough water to extinguish it (how do you know what you're facing here?), etc. I think you'd be better off waiting for that extra minute or so to get water on.
    "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in battle."

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