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Thread: Tanker

  1. #1
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    Default Tanker

    Our dept is looking for a new tanker with a price tag of under 150K. Can you guys share your price and dealers that have already met your needs in this price range. Email info to Bweil@nocfa.com

    Thanks


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    Default Another Tanker ?

    We are in the process of bidding a new pumper/tanker. One supplier says they will not bid with spring style suspension only air ride suspension. Are there any new rules etc. that would make this a non choice for the buyer?
    All our old apparatus have springs. Help please.

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    Strictly from a generic truck point of view, a good air suspension, properly installed and set up will give superior ride characteristics. I can't address how they compare for roll stability. I'm sure there are plenty of readers who can. Good ride will keep from beating up the rest of the truck and its components, making them last a lot longer.

    For pure toughness and ability to deal with horrible terrain, as much as I dislike them for their ride, you can't beat the old Hendrickson walking beams (tandem axle).

    But I think that the most important point that should be made is this: If they don't want to supply it, there ought to be a good engineering reason why. If there is, they should tell you what the reason is. If they don't want to tell you the reason, I'd ask if they need directions to your exit door.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    We have a Hendricson Haulmax suspension, handles great 1" difference empty or full cheap to maintain.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by capt4nocfa
    Our dept is looking for a new tanker with a price tag of under 150K. Can you guys share your price and dealers that have already met your needs in this price range. Email info to Bweil@nocfa.com

    Thanks
    What's some of the specifics you're looking for? Tank size? Pump? Chassis (are you purchasing or specing it as one?)? etc? Are you wanting new or demo? Give us some details!

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    Thumbs up Suspension

    Quote Originally Posted by sfd7101 View Post
    We are in the process of bidding a new pumper/tanker. One supplier says they will not bid with spring style suspension only air ride suspension. Are there any new rules etc. that would make this a non choice for the buyer?
    All our old apparatus have springs. Help please.
    Hendrickson makes an air ride suspension specifically engineered for the fire industry. It has a lower center of gravity, twice the normal number of sway and torsion bars. A brochure can be down loaded from hendrickson's website.

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    Having experience driving various trucks with high center of gravity loads I would stay away from the air ride. Too much maintenance and they can sway a lot if you hit a turn hard. It was popular in my area for a short period of time on dump and log truck applications until you needed to work on them. Also, if you need change an air bag it can be a nightmare. Without a doubt, if I was buying 1 or 100 trucks tomorrow that hauled this type of load I would get the HN Series from Hendrickson. If you go to any dealer within a 75 mile radius a look at a heavy chassis regardless of brand it has the HN on it. We have it our 3000 gallon tanker and it perfect. It is very stable in the turns and rides great. If there is a dealer that will only build on an air ride chassis I would stay away from them. Just my opinion.

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    Our tender is a 83 Frieghtliner conventional with 4200 gallon aluminum tank. It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it.

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    sorry forgot. bought in 95 for about 90,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCFD1L101 View Post
    Our tender is a 83 Frieghtliner conventional with 4200 gallon aluminum tank. It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it.
    And now it's hauling close to 5500 lbs. more weight in the tank. Beside what it does to the tank and the suspension, consider what it does to the center of gravity.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

  11. #11
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCFD1L101 View Post
    Our tender is a 83 Frieghtliner conventional with 4200 gallon aluminum tank. It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it.
    And I am guessing from this post that you guys "drive it like it hauls?" If thats the case, make sure you put some pig pads and a 1/2 dozen of bags of oil dry in the compartment for the saddle tanks..............And have a towing vendor with large trucks on your call list. "Hello, Big and Bigger Towing? This is so-and-so from Such-and-Such County Fire Dispatch. We need three of your big trucks at the curve on Fart Road near Smelly Lane....XYZ Fire Dept rolled that old oil tanker.......Yes, they will have a fully loaded Brinks Truck there to pay you."

    Make sure your Vehicle Liability Insurance will cover Gross Negligence.....Heck does your insurance carrier even KNOW you are using a former oil tanker (which is now overweight!) to haul water in emergent responses? Hello, This is Miss So-and-So from Chip of the Rock Insurance Company. We're just calling to inform you that we will not be covering losses incurred as a result of the vehicle accident last week, as Gross Negligence on your part was the cause of the accident. By knowingly allowing an overweight vehicle to operate for purposes other than it was designed for, We feel you are at fault. We will not cover the value of the vehicle, the value of the damaged state property, or the value of the civilian auto which was crushed, nor the death coverage/benefits of the persons inside. Have a nice day!



    How about your Workmans Comp Insurance? Will they cover one of your members if they are severly injured if that thing crashes, and you guys knowingly operated it overweight? You prepared to make mortgage payments and feed your guy's kids if they have claims denied??????? "Hello, Chief So-and-So? This is Mr. XYZ from Screwum and Harder. I am calling to advise you that we will not be covering the driver and the firefighter that was in that accident last week in that oil tanker. Why? Because your Department knowingly used an overweight vehicle for purposes other than it was designed for. They will be responsible for the massive medical costs. Oh? Whats that? Their lost wages? No they'll be on their own there also. Sorry!

    Make sure you have an attorney on-call. Will your municipality allow you to use their solicitor in the event you are sued? How about if the fire chief and/or the operator of the truck go to jail for gross negligence in the event (god forbid) you get in an accident? "Hello, Mayor So-and-So? This is the Assistant Fire Chief. Can you please call Al NeedsMore from Dewey, Cheatum and Howe? The Fire Chief and the Driver of the tanker were arrested by the District Attorney's Office and are now sitting down in County Lock-Up. The Charges? Something about Vehicular Manslaughter. As they were putting them in the back of the patrol car, the sherriff was mumbling something about "Stupidity at its Finest" whatever that means....."

    Do you have a SOP for Line-Of-Duty Deaths? Perhaps you should research and write one. The NVFC has a pamphlet for doing just this.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 01-27-2007 at 07:02 AM.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Default dear FWDBUFF

    Being a "fwdbuff" you should know a little more about trucks. Depending on tire size and tag axles a "tandem" can legally gross over 60,000. Never had a problem with our tender, we only have qualified personnel as operators, all but 2 are class A with tank endorsements and the 2 are farmers. Here farmers and fire are CDL exempt and the farmers run tandems with tanks as part of their businesses. We try not to get people in over their heads, if you cant or don't know how to you DON'T. "Give nothing for nothing, property for property, and life for life" I would love to know what is "wrong" with our converted truck. It was professionally converted in CA and if it is good enough in CA it should be just fine here. Oh thats right, it has worked flawlessly for years on countless range, wheat and 6 structure fires (that I personally know of). Also most people would agree that a vehicle designed to safely carry flammable liquids can probably handle water (specifically when converted to a single tank with nonsealed man holes). Can't wait to hear your next rant about us poor little podunk departments. Write back soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCFD1L101 View Post
    Being a "fwdbuff" you should know a little more about trucks. Depending on tire size and tag axles a "tandem" can legally gross over 60,000.
    You dont know who I am or what I know about trucks......But inferring from various statements made within your poorly prepared post, you obviously dont know as much as you think you do.

    Lets start with some basic math. The average weight of #2 oil= 7.1 Lbs/Gallon. The weight of water= 8.3Lbs/Gallon. Using your quote of 4200 Gals, give or take a few here and there for airspace and other losses, you are grossing approximately 34,860 Lbs in load alone. This does not include the vehicle itself, or other equipment carried on board. (oh, the weight of 4200 Gals of #2: 29,820 Lbs.) You are over by 5040 Lbs. Oh, sure it may not be a lot of weight when you think in the mechanical aspect- "Shoot. It's a tough old truck, it's got a four and a quarter kitty cat and a 13 speed roadranger, it can handle it! That dinosaur Hendrickson suspension can handle an extra 5000 pounds! Sure! No problem, mechanically! Now lets talk about something that is probably beyond your grasp: PHYSICS.

    Now understand that I am not an Engineer, I dont pretend to be one nor do I play one on TV. But I am pretty damn sure that when the engineer that designed the truck did his mathematical calculations, he used the weight of #2 oil to do so. He probably used the weight of #2 oil to determine his chassis and propulsion needs. But the biggie here, is that he probably also used the weight of #2 oil (combined with the weight of the truck itself) to determine the center of gravity. Did you talk to the engineer? Did he approve of an extra 5000 pounds swinging around on his design? Engineers are kind of anal retentive like that.

    Sure, a tandem can gross over 60K. Legally? You better go study some more and get back to me. Tire size has somthing to do with it, but it doesnt stop there. What are the axles rated for? What are the springs rated for? Hell- whats the frame rated for???? You can have all the tags in the world under that thing, but if they aren't rated, legally you are screwed, and mechanically you could be screwed eventually.

    Qualified people? Says who? Your organization? Your fire chief? Your municipality? Your state? Sure they may have Class "A" CDL's with tank endorsements.....Hopefully that gives them enough brains not to "drive it like it was built to haul." Are your drivers certified by the National Board of Professional Qualifications(the "pro board"?

    Professionally converted in California? Again, says who? IF they went by California's strict weight laws, they baffled out some of the tank to compensate for the increased weight of water- or, you dont even know that, dont know your equipment, and think you have 4200 gals of water on board. Or, it was converted by XYZ Overnight Conversions who flushed the #2 oil out of the system, added a water pump, and re-tooled all piping to NST. Or some VFD somewhere got a steal of a deal on an old fuel tanker, converted it in-house, and you guys eventually purchased it.

    I bet you a gallon of #2 oil (weighing in at 7.1 Lbs/Gallon) that most people with a degree in mechanical or vehiclular engineering would NOT agree that a vehicle designed to safely carry flammable liquids can probably handle water (specifically when converted to a single tank with nonsealed man holes.)

    Oh, and FYI- I have said this before, I'll say it again (you can go back and review my post history if you want- all 700+ of them....) I am not against "poor, little podunk departments." What I AM against is, the ones that think they are above the law "just because they are a fire department, and a poor one at that."
    1. Just because you are a fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    2. Just because you are a POOR fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    3. With all the free homeland security and various other free or low-cost federal grants, no one has the right to use the "poor" excuse anymore. Thats just my opinion.

    Oh, and I am also against the poor podunk departments that like to brag that "It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it." Once again, I sincerely hope your drivers dont drive it like it was built to haul.

    Have a good one! Stay safe!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Lets start with some basics. Say the truck weighs in at 48,460 with my 250lbs and it is licensed to 50,000 which it is, what is the problem?? 50,000-48,460=1540/8.3=185.5 the number of gallons of water I had better fiqure out how to get on the truck.

    Don't fool yourself we could only dream of a 425 cat or 400 cummins, 13 speeds are for people that can operate 2 switches. Try a screaming green leaker and a 9.

    Your statement. "Now lets talk about something that is probably beyond your grasp:PHYSICS. Now understand that I am not an Engineer, I dont pretend to be one nor do I play one on TV. But I am pretty damn sure that when the engineer that designed the truck did his mathematical calculations, he used the weight of #2 oil to do so. He probably used the weight of #2 oil to determine his chassis and propulsion needs. But the biggie here, is that he probably also used the weight of #2 oil (combined with the weight of the truck itself) to determine the center of gravity. Did you talk to the engineer? Did he approve of an extra 5000 pounds swinging around on his design? Engineers are kind of anal retentive like that."

    So if you are not an Engineer might you just be guessing or maybe grabbing in the dark? Fuel tankers in this area are set up to run 105,000 with a trailer LEGALLY. Truck by itself 60,000, LEGALLY. Also Engineers rate things with safety factors, usually otherwise they would be getting sued.

    Would you PLEASE get off the "drive it like it was built to haul." That is not what was said or meant.

    Would you PLEASE also check out a DOL comerical vehicle manual. You can find some very interesting information about tire size, axles, and ratings. Maybe you have insight to your state but not here.

    EVOC and EVAP are State certified classes and last I checked CDLs were issued by the State. So most of our "Qualified" drivers are apparentally satisifying the States requirements.

    Your statement "Professionally converted in California? Again, says who? IF they went by California's strict weight laws, they baffled out some of the tank to compensate for the increased weight of water- or, you dont even know that, dont know your equipment, and think you have 4200 gals of water on board."

    I said that it was Professionally converted, to meet our DOT requirements. Although that seems to not matter, you seem to know even more. So could you get me straightened out on and informed on the rest of our fleet??

    Your statement. "Oh, and FYI- I have said this before, I'll say it again (you can go back and review my post history if you want- all 700+ of them....) I am not against "poor, little podunk departments." What I AM against is, the ones that think they are above the law "just because they are a fire department, and a poor one at that."
    1. Just because you are a fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    2. Just because you are a POOR fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    3. With all the free homeland security and various other free or low-cost federal grants, no one has the right to use the "poor" excuse anymore. Thats just my opinion."

    The only thing that I stated about the Law was that Fire and Farmers are CDL exempt. YOU are the one that cant understand that the truck is LEGAL. We are bidding a new Urban interface because of a grant and running a bond to upgrade brush trucks. I am a little miffed why you repeatedly want to degrade our nicest truck, which is safe and legal. Why don't you go harass the people wtih the 200 gl brush 1 ton pickups that ARE overloaded and under braked.

    Your statement. "Oh, and I am also against the poor podunk departments that like to brag that "It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it." Once again, I sincerely hope your drivers dont drive it like it was built to haul."

    Just so you know in its fuel hauling days our tender pulled a trailer everyday and was licensed to 105,000. If you want to call it bragging OK but I just wanted other departments to know that there are more options avialiable.

    Your statement. "Have a good one! Stay safe!"

    Safety NEVER takes a Holiday.

    Feal free to give me some insight on improving my poorly prepared posts.

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    LCFD,At the risk of being me,there's NO WAY a three axle truck was ever legally operated in CA with 4200 gals of Dihydrogen monoxide without an exemption permit, if indeed one could obtain one.Our neighbors have a similar truck,different chassis,same tank.It is one heavy b**ch.And I'm not talking about capacity.Did I read that right,"converted to a single tank with non sealed manholes"? I've got nothing against properly set up "shop builts"but the above statement,if correct,does put me on edge.FWD,that's a single "heavy" recovery.No load on arrival.Chassis,while probably maxed out,would probably handle it.But it's over axle,which even though probably exempted as a fire truck,doesn't really make it right.You got to do what you got to do but I'd want to be sure that vehicle was only operated by a select few drivers that REALLY KNOW what they're sitting in/on.Best of luck but not for the weak at heart. T.C.

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    Default To Assumers

    I have never stated that the truck was operated in CA, we purchased it there. Please dont assume, as it makes an *** of both of us and I don't need any help in that department I am more than capable. Since when did 50,000 become HEAVY for a tandem? Said truck has 14000 steer, 19000 imtermidate, and 19000 rear = 52,000 but wait were weighing in at LESS. Yes the tank was converted to one compartment by making small holes in the center baffle so that you don't have to fill seperate compartments. It is very well baffled and the lids for sealing the compartments were removed and covered with expanded aluminum. This makes it so that you dont have to climb on top every fill to open and close lids as they will hold pressure. In the event it is over filled it just runs over, no damage. Here it is OK to spill a little water. I will work on a picture maybe that will help some understand.

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    LCFD Don't get me wrong on this, I help out a VFD in Oklahoma, and used to drive trucks. Some states don't care what a manufacturer rates it's axles at. For ex. I drove a single axle straight truck across scales in Mo. Front axle rated at 12k. Mo allows 10k. Rear axle rated at 21k. Allowed 20k. Most, and I mean most OTR tandem axle trucks, without trailer, are allowed to gross at 46,000. If you use your front 14k, int 19k, and rear 19k, by those you can have 52k. If we assume, (I'll try not to make an *** of either of us), that the trailer has two axles at 19k each., then this hypothetical truck/trailer combo could wiegh in at 90k, but at a scale house would be allowed only 80k. Something that may be different for you is if your state allows bridge weights. This would be where they allow extra weight because of X distance between the front axle and the tandem. I know fire services don't have to stop at scales, but if there happened to be an accident that DOT got involved with, there very well could be trouble.

    I'm glad that you guys have found something that works for you. My VFD is looking to get a tanker, but is limited by the bridges in the area to something under abut 1500 gal.

    Just a question. Does your state require fire apparatus be registered by GVW, just registered, or something else.

    Matt

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    Sure are a lot of experts here concerning the laws in states in which they don't reside. And on design of trucks they have never seen.

    In Iowa, and I'm told in several other states, FD are exempt for dimension/weight limits that apply to commerical trucks. Iowa 20k front 34k tandem - does not apply. Max of 80k or 96k - does not apply. Max width, height, length - does not apply. FD makes their own decisions.

    Physical characteristics of bridges/culverts are of considerable interest to us. As are the characteristics of gravel roads in spring (soft).

    Some of you apparently need to shop around for your insurance a bit more. We have a good selection of decent underwriters to chose from that provide coverage and from a fair rates (approx $110/yr/truck for liab). Perhaps we just have a better record of responsible operations. And thats "home built" tankers and wildland trucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Oh, and FYI- I have said this before, I'll say it again (you can go back and review my post history if you want- all 700+ of them....) I am not against "poor, little podunk departments." What I AM against is, the ones that think they are above the law "just because they are a fire department, and a poor one at that."
    1. Just because you are a fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    2. Just because you are a POOR fire department does not make it right to break the law.
    3. With all the free homeland security and various other free or low-cost federal grants, no one has the right to use the "poor" excuse anymore. Thats just my opinion.

    Oh, and I am also against the poor podunk departments that like to brag that "It is an old fuel truck so it was built to haul, maybe some day we will get a pup for it." Once again, I sincerely hope your drivers dont drive it like it was built to haul.

    Have a good one! Stay safe!
    1. In many states, it is not breaking the law.

    3. All that money is fine, but the vehicle grants are restricted to one vehicle. I run two pumpers, one tanker, two brush rigs, and a support
    truck, all of which could use replacement, the pumpers and tanker are SCREAMING for replacement. Newest is 1985, but wait.. I got an AFG
    grant for a vehicle.

    Now, I replace a pumper. What about the rest? On a $6,500.00 yearly
    budget. What to do?

    I will make something work. I will make it as safe as possible. I will train
    people extensively on it. I will have rules for it. They WILL be obeyed.

    You and I know about my tanker. I have made it as safe as possible. I have trained the few select drivers on it, and keep training them on it. I will make sure they have the safety equipment. I removed the siren from it, and do not allow them to turn the lights on while going down the road.

    I am in PA every other month. Visiting departments while I work. Many of the departments up there have no idea what is faced out here in the rural
    world. Thankfully many do, and they have donated equipment down here, probably the only thing that keeps us afloat.

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    Default Thank You

    Thank you Neiowa and LVFD301. Matt, here we register and recieve Exempt plates it could be a Vega or a lowboy with jeeps. But that doesn't mean that we are above the law. I feel for you about your bridges we only have one limited bridge and it has many bypasses.

    LVFP301 know your pain. Currently we run 64 W800 1200gl, 69 C60 1200gl, 72 IH Loadstar 4x4 1200gl, 83 C60 800gl (burn while stuck on wheathill, gotta hate 2x4 firetrucks but was rebuilt), 66 seagraves, and 83 Freightshaker 4200 gl. We also get help with surplus items a from a bigger department (Thanks Chief)

    Picture of Tender is a little small but a picture of it staging on a 2500 acre fire.
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