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  1. #21
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nine3Probie
    How are you going to know which ones are named Will?
    In spanish, the name Will is Guillermo. And yes, JHR needs to get a frickin' clue.

    Hate to tell you this good buddy. But folks south of the border have guns as well. Whose in a better spot strategically? The one roaming the countryside being able to hide and conceal themselves in the native flora. Or the one posted in a stationary position 30' to 40' in the air.

    Since you're the gun nut, I'll let you decide.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #22
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Unless, of course, they are brown and speak Spanish.
    Is it possible for you to make a more ridiculous statement? If you want to imply that controlling our border is somehow a racial issue, give it a try. All you will accomplish is to show just how off-base you are.
    Controlling our border is not racist, nor should it be painted as such. It also has nothing to with stopping immigration, either. As citizens here, we are the ones with rights, not those who are breaking the law by entering this country illegally.

    We need to stop the ‘fence-jumping’ that is taking place, especially in light of our buddy Hugo Chavez training Arabs to ‘act-latino’. We should work towards changing the laws on work visas in this country, and make it easier for immigrants, particularly blue-collar types to gain entry, if they wish. However, we should know who they are, where they are, where they are working, and what their intentions are when they choose to work in our Nation.
    There is nothing racist about that position, except for the people that attempt to portray it as such.

  3. #23
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    We should work towards changing the laws on work visas in this country, and make it easier for immigrants, particularly blue-collar types to gain entry, if they wish. However, we should know who they are, where they are, where they are working, and what their intentions are when they choose to work in our Nation.
    Woww Jasper. I agree with you completely. Given how there is demand for a supply of unskilled labor that is a better solution. If the individuals in question are put into the system they can better be tracked to pay taxes etc. The only ones without any official documentation would be the criminal since those wishing to work and be productive would have no reason to not get a visa.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #24
    Fir Na Tine LuckyThirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    Is it possible for you to make a more ridiculous statement? If you want to imply that controlling our border is somehow a racial issue, give it a try. All you will accomplish is to show just how off-base you are.
    Controlling our border is not racist, nor should it be painted as such. It also has nothing to with stopping immigration, either. As citizens here, we are the ones with rights, not those who are breaking the law by entering this country illegally.

    We need to stop the ‘fence-jumping’ that is taking place, especially in light of our buddy Hugo Chavez training Arabs to ‘act-latino’. We should work towards changing the laws on work visas in this country, and make it easier for immigrants, particularly blue-collar types to gain entry, if they wish. However, we should know who they are, where they are, where they are working, and what their intentions are when they choose to work in our Nation.
    There is nothing racist about that position, except for the people that attempt to portray it as such.
    Great post jasper!

    Nozzleman's post is a classic example of trying to respond based on emotion, rather than logic.
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  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    Who would you shoot first? The women? The children? Or, maybe just mow down entire families?
    Easy... you just dont lead'em as much....



    The whole concept was meant to be a joke.

    If they build a wall across the border... where are they going to get the cheap labor to build it?
    Last edited by JHR1985; 10-28-2006 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Part of the problem with illegal immigration is the unwillingness to rethink NAFTA. When NAFTA was passed econ experts on both sides of the border realized that agriculture jobs would be lost in Mexico due to the competition being tilted in the favor of US farmers who compete advantageosly because of crop subsidies.
    Isn't one of the unplanned side effects of NAFTA the loss of jobs in Mexico to the even poorer countrys to its south? I thought I read somewhere that a lot of the work that used to be done in Mexico was now going to Guatamala, El Salvidore..etc. Afraid I don't have a source, just thought I heard it somewhere.

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    Well, some interestings posts here indeed.

    I bet those of you such as the the nozzle commie lived here in Tucson you would understand the strain illegal immigration places on the state system here.

    The people here are sick of it and you can tell by reading this story

    I love the comment by Lorraine Lee who is the vice president of Chicanos Por La Casa here in Tucson...

    You are moving up and you have all these forces dragging us down," said Lee, who added that the media coverage of anti-illegal immigrant groups is disproportionate. "We don't look as dramatic as the Minutemen standing with cowboy hats and their boots in the desert."
    I think its a sad day when we have to pass a law saying the official language is English in Arizona. You go in to a store and the hispanic employees who barley speak english are offended you dont know spanish!

    Having worked both LE and EMS I have seen abuses of the state and federal systems. Nothing like having illegal aliens driving new Hummer H2's and getting food stamps. You figure that one out.

    Dont get me wrong...having lived here for over 20 years I love the hispanic flavor of Tucson. Not all of those who try to cross the border are bad, but there are fewer of the good honest folks it seems.

    And scfire86....the only ones with guns on the south side of the border are the bad ones. You dont see the hard working families toting guns over the border.

    I understand the closest thing to "mexican" you have probably been next to was your neighborhood Taco Bell with all white kids working there.

    I have no problem with immigration as long as its "legal".
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  8. #28
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Unless, of course, they are brown and speak Spanish.
    I love this pathetic argument from people, usually of liberal so holier than thou attitude.


    They offer no proof, only the argument that we only want to put up a wall against the Southern border to stop immigration - forgetting the whole "illegal" part of the subject. Now we have the new catchphrase and we are supposed to call these criminals (for that is what one is when they violate the law - but how dare I introduce facts into the case!) "Undocumented Workers."

    However, most people against illegal immigration are against it for anyone. You row across the Carribean from Hispaniola or Cuba, come in a container ship from China, Viet Nam, or Africa you ought to go back.

    And these farmers ought to pay a wage. You hear all of this stuff about "Jobs Americans don't want to do" which is total horse crap. Pay a responsible wage and you will. Stop subsidizing crops as SC mentioned and get rid of the socialization of our nation and things will improve (somewhat.)

    I am sick of being called a racist by people who know no better, and never offer anything up as evidence. As proof, check out the incident at Columbia in NYC 3 weeks ago. Those against illegal immigration were drowned out of their opportunity to voice their opinion by the same holier-than-thou, self righteous Socialist mentality we have continue to see.

    Liberalism's idea of free speech is simple: Say anything you want so long as it does not go against the grain of what we want, and no one is ever offended.

    I shall speak my mind. Don't like it? Too freaking bad. Life is full of disappointment. You want to call me racist? Fine. Just know that it shows your complete lack of knowledge and inability to rest the facts, not your emotion and own hatred.
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  9. #29
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    Isn't one of the unplanned side effects of NAFTA the loss of jobs in Mexico to the even poorer countrys to its south? I thought I read somewhere that a lot of the work that used to be done in Mexico was now going to Guatamala, El Salvidore..etc. Afraid I don't have a source, just thought I heard it somewhere.
    This was an article in the LA Times written sometime back. It was the source of my earlier post.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...1,700223.story

    From the Los Angeles Times
    NEWS ANALYSIS
    Placing Blame for Mexico's Ills
    The economic policies of the U.S. are at the heart of Sunday's presidential contest.
    By Marla Dickerson
    Times Staff Writer

    July 1, 2006

    TLACHINOLA, Mexico — Francisco Herrera Sanchez is not an economics expert and knows little about globalization. But the octogenarian says he knows that something has gone terribly wrong with U.S.-backed trade policies that were supposed to lift millions of Mexicans from poverty.

    He has seen hundreds of residents flee this farming community for the United States since 1994, when the North American Free Trade Agreement began opening Mexico's markets to more low-cost U.S. agricultural products. He feels his neighbors' absence in the meager receipts at his tiny grocery in this hamlet about 3 1/2 hours southeast of the capital. "The riches are up there," said the 85-year-old widower, referring to the U.S. Here "there is nothing, not even music. Just silence, like a dead man hanging."

    Many Americans are angry that as many as 12 million illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican, are living in the U.S., driven by lack of opportunities at home. Critics are demanding that Mexico right its stumbling economy, create jobs for its people and end its de facto development strategy of shipping its problems north of the border.

    But some experts say U.S. economic policies have played a role in fueling the mass exodus. Pushed hard by the United States, Mexico began embracing the Washington-backed prescription of privatization, free trade and government austerity in the early 1980s. A quarter of a century later, the results are decidedly mixed and are the heart of Sunday's cliffhanger presidential election in Mexico.

    The contest pits leftist Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who wants to boost social spending and rethink the NAFTA relationship, against conservative Felipe Calderon, who wants to maintain Mexico's policy on free trade and open the country's state-controlled energy sector to private investment. Their divergent views reflect the soaring achievements and bitter disappointments that have accompanied Mexico's economic restructuring.

    Strict fiscal and monetary discipline has helped Mexico rise Lazarus-like from its devastating 1994 peso devaluation. Inflation is tame. Interest rates are relatively low. The government's books are balanced, and Mexico's debt is rated investment grade. It was a stunning comeback for a nation that had a history of lurching from one financial crisis to another.

    "It's stability," said President Vicente Fox in an interview this year. "This is a big, big change in Mexico."

    Yet the so-called Washington consensus has done little to spur economic growth, reduce income disparity, create jobs and stem migration to the U.S.

    Consider the landmark NAFTA agreement.

    Proponents point to the nearly threefold leap in trade between the United States and Mexico as proof of the pact's success. NAFTA has vaulted Mexico into Latin America's premier exporter and given it a fat trade surplus with the United States. Yet the agreement has yielded little in the way of net job creation or in helping to build the vibrant Mexican middle class that supporters promised.

    U.S. and Mexican officials touted the deal as a way to stanch the flow of illegal immigrants by creating jobs in Mexico. The tide of undocumented Mexicans in the U.S. surged after the pact was implemented. Fully two-thirds of undocumented immigrants currently living in the United States have been there 10 years or less, according to the Pew Hispanic Center.

    Many of those people are Mexicans from hard-hit rural areas, the predictable casualties, NAFTA critics say, of a trade deal that forced Mexico to wrench open its farm sector without a viable transition strategy for millions of subsistence farmers.

    Adjusted for inflation, Mexico's growth in gross domestic product has been flat for more than two decades. The cost to Mexico's people for this dismal performance is staggering. If Mexico's economy had grown at the same pace from 1980 to the present as it did in the period from 1960 to 1980, today it would have the same standard of living as Spain, said economist Mark Weisbrot, co-director of the Center for Economic Policy and Research in Washington. Instead, nearly half of Mexico's 106 million people live in poverty.

    "It's hard to reduce poverty and create employment when you don't have growth," Weisbrot said. "To have 25 years of this rotten economic performance, you'd have to conclude something is wrong."

    Some analysts contend that Mexico simply hasn't moved far enough and fast enough down the free-market path, while botching earlier reforms. Privatizations such as the 1990 sale of the state-owned telephone company essentially replaced public monopolies with private ones. Mexico's inefficient state-owned energy companies are harming its competitiveness. Red tape and corruption are strangling innovation.

    But Weisbrot and others contend that some free-market policies simply haven't delivered and are contributing to the immigration friction that has become a major sore point in U.S.-Mexico relations.

    Economists point to a host of demographic, cultural and economic factors fueling the mass migration. But many agree that NAFTA accelerated the decades-long exodus of Mexicans from the countryside by opening the nation's markets wider to subsidized U.S. agriculture products.

    Mexico has shed nearly 30% of its farm jobs since the trade pact went into effect, according to government statistics. That translates into 2.8 million farmers and millions more of their dependents fleeing their fields. Some have taken subsistence jobs in Mexico's cities, but many have relocated to the U.S.

    Not far from Tlachinola, brothers Valente and Francisco Aguilar yoked a team of black-and-white oxen to a scarred wooden plow on a recent hot morning to till a field of spindly corn. The men worked for years in construction and other jobs in the U.S., returning to Mexico to care for their aging parents. Their six siblings are still up north, in Nevada and New York, and are unlikely ever to come back.

    The brothers say poor Mexicans have a right to take jobs in the U.S. because policymakers on both sides of the border appear to have abandoned them to their fate.

    "Neither government cares about us," said Francisco, who earns about $8.75 for a 12-hour day busting sod for a local landowner.

    NAFTA experts say negotiators from Mexico and the U.S. knew that rural families like the Aguilars would be hard hit by the trade deal. The bet was that many of them would find work in Mexico's burgeoning maquiladora export factories. But there too NAFTA has fallen short.

    Mexico has lost more than four times as many farm jobs over the last 12 years as it gained in export manufacturing positions, in part because of relentless competition from China.

    Economist Jeff Faux, author of a new book on globalization, said the current focus of the U.S. Congress on tougher border enforcement ignored the root economic causes pushing migrants north. He said talk of fences, guest worker programs and Mexican government ineptitude diverted attention from U.S.-backed policies such as NAFTA that have helped create the very flood of illegal immigrants that many Americans are now decrying.

    "It's really unconscionable that there is no discussion of the American fingerprints on this," said Faux, founding president of the Washington-based Economic Policy Institute and author of "The Global Class War." "There is a lot of winking and nodding going on … because it's their business constituents that supported [NAFTA] and that are enjoying the benefits" of low-wage immigrant labor.

    Around Latin America, countries are loosening their embrace of free-market policies and institutions as left-of-center leaders have come to power. Argentina, which has sparred repeatedly with the Washington-based International Monetary Fund after its 2001 financial crisis, has emerged from the largest sovereign debt default in history with economic growth rates topping 9%. Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia have moved to exert greater state control over energy resources to devote more funding to social spending. Privatization of public utilities such as water has fallen out of favor. And a U.S.-led push for a hemispherewide trade agreement has gone nowhere.

    Given that climate, some political analysts say the time might be right for Mexico to push back against its largest trading partner and demand protections for key domestic industries such as farming that still generate a lot of employment in Mexico.

    Mexico's agriculture minister last month pleaded with the U.S. and Canada to allow the country to keep import restrictions on corn and beans, which are scheduled under NAFTA to come off in 2008. Mexican farm groups have warned that the end of protections would send millions more rural dwellers toward the border. The U.S. quickly rejected the proposal.

    But Lopez Obrador, who holds a slight lead in opinion polls, has declared that he wouldn't honor Mexico's NAFTA commitment to eliminate barriers on corn and beans if he were elected. In fact, his chief economic advisor, Rogelio Ramirez de la O, told Reuters last month that a Lopez Obrador administration would seek a full review of the agreement, particularly the agricultural component.

    "We think that this is high time for a due diligence on NAFTA … ," Ramirez de la O said. "We have to recognize where things have not worked out."

    That kind of talk has U.S. trade officials and farmers chafing. But given Americans' rising fury over illegal immigration, Pamela Starr, Latin America analyst for Washington-based Eurasia Group, said it was time for the United States "to get real" with its trade and immigration policies toward Mexico. She said it was disingenuous and unfair for the U.S. to protect its own farmers with fat subsidies while demanding that small Mexican growers compete with them head-to-head.

    "An essential part of any migration program designed to reduce the flow [of illegal immigrants] needs to have U.S. efforts to help Mexico develop its own economy," Starr said. "The U.S. has two options. It can import Mexican goods or it can import Mexican workers."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Special correspondent Sarah Meghan Lee contributed to this report.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Copyright 2006 Los Angeles Times
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  10. #30
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    I understand the closest thing to "mexican" you have probably been next to was your neighborhood Taco Bell with all white kids working there.

    I have no problem with immigration as long as its "legal".
    That and the fact my daughter married a man of Mexican ancestry. I'll say one thing. My son-in-law's family sure knows how to party. It was one of the best weddings I ever attended.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-29-2006 at 05:04 PM.
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  11. #31
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    It was one of the best weddings I ever attended.
    Believe it or not, but my city, and more particularly my first due is almost entirely Hispanic. The entire city is a ‘minority majority’, with about 20% of Hispanic ancestry, my first due is around 75%, with the other 25% being black. The Latino community is divided mostly between Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans, which does lend itself to some interesting disputes on Puerto Rican holidays, and vice versa.
    I have a significant amount of experience with Mexicans, as I have worked in my present house for 11 years, and the majority of Mexicans are here to better themselves, as well as their families; who can fault them for that? Mexicans have a strong family system, and are very good workers.

    Another reason to change these laws in regard to immigrant workers is for the safety of these workers as well. They aren’t going to complain about companies that violate OSHA, or any other laws. Too often we have responded to a factory for an injury in the middle of the night, only to find a Mexican, who can’t speak English, standing by himself in the middle of the night, in his work wear, with a mangled hand, chewed up fingers, or some other kind of significant injury due largely to companies taking advantage of almost slave labor.
    Now I am no liberal, but these kind of circumstances are disgusting to me. These types of happenings are becoming more and more common, as more ’undocumented workers’ flood my city. Let’s change our immigration laws, document who’s working, get them paying taxes, supporting Social Security, and in the mean time make our country safer from terrorism.

    SC, I think you would find we might think more alike than it might appear.

  12. #32
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    SC, I think you would find we might think more alike than it might appear.
    I agree. Since our immigration policies aren't going to stem the need for cheap labor we might as well put them into the system.

    Slavery will never be legally reinstituted, but for some American business the millions of illegal aliens are the next best thing: Illegal foreigners accept exploitation, don't complain about hazardous conditions, work for sub-living wages and don't demand expensive benefits. Why else would a company hire a non-English speaker who cannot understand instructions?

    Our history of importing foreign workers is rooted not in a true need for such labor, but because American businesses want to avoid increasing the wages of their domestic workers.

    The real demand for illegal immigrant labor comes from employers who pay minimum or below legal wages, while burdening the rest of society with these social costs.
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    Scfire:

    Your points are very true, but don't forget the other side of the formula, the consumer. Contractor A can do the job for X dollars but most of his workers are illegals. Contractor B bids at twice the price, but his workers are legal. Which contractor do you think will get the job?
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  14. #34
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219
    Scfire:

    Your points are very true, but don't forget the other side of the formula, the consumer. Contractor A can do the job for X dollars but most of his workers are illegals. Contractor B bids at twice the price, but his workers are legal. Which contractor do you think will get the job?
    I'm thinking you prove my points.
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    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    I live in a state that is soon going to become majority mexican race probably in the next 10 years(if it isnt already) and I have worked beside many mexican's in the trenches. Most of them work as construction workers because A: Plenty of jobs for them B: They get paid well C: None are in unions so that correlates to D: Employers pay them less with little benefits and get a higher work to profit ratio compared to hiring white people.

    So.... :gasps: rather than fine companies who hire illegals... fine companies that pay them lower wages.

    That would force companies that hire illegals due to lower wages to... stop that tatic so any reason to hire illegals due to being cheaper would be tossed out the window. The only other reason would be that most American's are lazy and fat

    As for an article concerning is.... go here. You may think its a joke but it has some good points...


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    I live in a state that is soon going to become majority mexican race probably in the next 10 years(if it isnt already) and I have worked beside many mexican's in the trenches.
    In 2005, Texas joined Hawaii, New Mexico, and California as a "majority-minority state." Minorities comprise 50.2 percent (11.3 million people) of the TX population according to July '05 census estimates. Arizona, Georgia, and Maryland are expected to become "majority-minority" states soon, if they aren't already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFDNJFF
    Just yesterday they signed papers to build a 700 mile fence along the border.
    Did they also sign a bill to develope fishnet condoms?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Many of those that cross also waste our tax money, don't learn English, increase crime, and bring illegal drugs into the counrty.

    Fencing has proven to not be "worthless."
    According to the evening news and a local newspaper, the fence near San Diego has reduced illegal apprehensions there by 80 percent and crime in San Diego County has dropped by 56 percent. Violent crimes dropped by 47 percent. These numbers are corroborated by the FBI crime index.
    According to the INS for 1995: Over 10 percent of all of the people apprehended at the border have criminal records, many for serious crimes. El Paso police officials estimated that undocumented aliens committed 75 to 80 percent of all auto thefts, as well as many burglaries. The Mayor of El Paso reported to INS that illegal immigration costs the city about $ 30 to $ 50 minion per year.
    The San Diego sector Border Patrol in 2004 stated that apprehensions decreased from 531,689 in 1993 (before the fence) to 111,515 in 2003.
    All it did was move the crossers from San Diego to other points to the east along the border.

    Until we have a real policy change to deal with thte situation, half asssed fences and more guards are nothing but a stop gap measure. Get the workers visas so that they will come here, work, pay taxes, and feel free to go home when done, and be able to come back when work is available.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    All it did was move the crossers from San Diego to other points to the east along the border.

    Until we have a real policy change to deal with thte situation, half asssed fences and more guards are nothing but a stop gap measure. Get the workers visas so that they will come here, work, pay taxes, and feel free to go home when done, and be able to come back when work is available.
    Geez DM. Do you know how nervous I get when we agree?
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    Is it possible for you to make a more ridiculous statement? If you want to imply that controlling our border is somehow a racial issue, give it a try. All you will accomplish is to show just how off-base you are.
    There's nothing ridiculous about it.
    We should work towards changing the laws on work visas in this country, and make it easier for immigrants, particularly blue-collar types to gain entry, if they wish.
    Right. Wanna take a stab at explaining why it isn't easier for these good, hardworking people to become Americans if they want to?
    I love this pathetic argument from people, usually of liberal so holier than thou attitude.
    Right. You're the one that wants to build a "wall", one of the most stupid ideas ever dredged up. Now THAT'S pathetic.
    However, most people against illegal immigration are against it for anyone. You row across the Carribean from Hispaniola or Cuba, come in a container ship from China, Viet Nam, or Africa you ought to go back.
    Wow..you didn't mention even ONE European nation with good white folk populating it...imagine that.
    I bet those of you such as the the nozzle commie lived here in Tucson you would understand the strain illegal immigration places on the state system here.
    Wow. Same old namecalling. Don't lecture me about immigrants living in your area. We have thousands in this area. And they are just like us. The irrational actions of people like you are just that...and based on the same old fears that have been used as an excuse to lash out at people who are "different" (ie. not straight, white folk) for years in this nation.
    I understand the closest thing to "mexican" you have probably been next to was your neighborhood Taco Bell with all white kids working there.
    Ummm...I'm pretty sure SC lives in the great state of California.

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