1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Correct, but the fence did work in those areas, hence their reasoning for building more fence & more patrol. I agree this isn't the solution; perhaps it is a temporary fix till a solution can be agreed upon.
    So it helped that area by making things worse for another area. The only solution is a policy change, not throwing money at a wall. Give out more than 10,000 low skilled visas a year, and they won't have to come in illegally they will have a legit process to follow that we currently deny them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Here's some logic for you...most of the right wingers who worry so much about what the evil invasion from Mexico is costing us were voracious supporters of the invasion of Iraq, a stupid war based on lies that is costing the U.S. taxpayer $177 million per DAY, with thousands upon thousands dead and maimed for life. And now they're worried about immigrants who are here working to better themselves getting health care for their sick children??? Nice.
    Some people need to get their priorities straight.
    Funny that it is Bush who is pushing the hardest for reasonable immigration policy reform, not a fence or wall.
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    Funny that it is Bush who is pushing the hardest for reasonable immigration policy reform, not a fence or wall.
    You mean ILLEGAL immigration reform.

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    So it helped that area by making things worse for another area. The only solution is a policy change, not throwing money at a wall. Give out more than 10,000 low skilled visas a year, and they won't have to come in illegally they will have a legit process to follow that we currently deny them.
    Or build more wall...like they are going to do. Something must be done while we wait to agree on a long-term solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    You mean ILLEGAL immigration reform.
    No, immigration reform. He sees the futility in building a fence that won't stretch across the entire border. He knows that the folks sneaking across in general only want to work, and they only sneak in to fill the jobs we need filled because we offer so few visas. That is real reform. If people would work together rather than slinging mud at each other over the issue, we could have a policy change in weeks or months rather than a wall/fence that would take tons of money and many years to build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    It is about bad law though, the same thing that lead to the American Revolution. Do you want hordes of recent immigrants rising up against the masses of longer term immigrants? Or would you rather have a simple policy change that can both account for the immigrants, allow our economy to have the needed workers, and most of all make it easier for law-enforcement to pick out the real bad actors and terrorists? Or do you just want to build a wall with a tiny door and tell the hordes that have not gotten here yet to get in the long long line while the hordes that are now trapped in side the wall get antsy?
    If it is a bad law, then push to change the immigration laws - as you are doing.

    The job of the United States should not be to cure another nation's failure to provide for their own citizens well-being (on many fronts).

    When Mexico does not allow foreign nationals to take on jobs within its own government then why should we have a wide open border? When Mexico itself has armed troops on its own Southern border to step its own flow of ILLEGAL mmigration, then why are we "Racist" or "Jingoistic" for wanting it as well?

    The wall, ALONG WITH resonable reform of immigration laws is necessary. And an unfunded mandate to build a wall is pathetic. Security measures along the entire border, as well as better container and security measures are necessary.

    As a society we pay a huge portion of our monetary spending paying for accidents, health care (though that is not as large a chunk as many might think), and other needs for people who have entered our nation not using the "official" channels. I realize that the process is difficult, but if people from all over the world can wait to come here (as I have previously mentioned) so can everyone else.

    Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

    This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    No, immigration reform. He sees the futility in building a fence that won't stretch across the entire border. He knows that the folks sneaking across in general only want to work, and they only sneak in to fill the jobs we need filled because we offer so few visas. That is real reform. If people would work together rather than slinging mud at each other over the issue, we could have a policy change in weeks or months rather than a wall/fence that would take tons of money and many years to build.
    You are right, but it must be a multi-pronged approach. The idea of 10,000 visas is a pathetic drop in the bucket considering the hundreds of thousands of people coming into our country every year.

    It would not take tons of money or years to build if: A) it were done right, and B) you get the politician's fat little hands out of the till when it is being bid and built.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    You are right, but it must be a multi-pronged approach. The idea of 10,000 visas is a pathetic drop in the bucket considering the hundreds of thousands of people coming into our country every year.

    It would not take tons of money or years to build if: A) it were done right, and B) you get the politician's fat little hands out of the till when it is being bid and built.
    I am not worried about politicians having their hands in the till, look at Duke Cunningham, he is going to jail for skiming a few million in cash, that is a drop in the bucket for the costs of a 1600 mile wall. I am concerned with construction unions bickering and causing delays due to greed, I am concerned with contractors cooking th books to charge more due to greed, I am concerned with bad oversight, due to lack of resources for inspectors due to stingyness. This would be the largest public works project since the Interstate Highway system.

    It will be very tough for someone to convince me that a physical barrier will be more effective in the long run than a real change in policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

    This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
    Sharkie. I say this with all respect. We have a neighborhood in OC where this belief would be at home. It's called FANTASYLAND. I respect your position. In the past you have made your points with factual assertions and NOT knee jerk emotional reactions.

    The business community that I referred to earlier has way too much interest in maintaining the status quo won't allow this to happen. Until that group is affected adversely this is nothing more than 'pie in the sky' false hope. The social costs the rest of us shoulder are of no concern to them.
    Last edited by scfire86; 10-31-2006 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    If it is a bad law, then push to change the immigration laws - as you are doing.

    The job of the United States should not be to cure another nation's failure to provide for their own citizens well-being (on many fronts).

    When Mexico does not allow foreign nationals to take on jobs within its own government then why should we have a wide open border? When Mexico itself has armed troops on its own Southern border to step its own flow of ILLEGAL mmigration, then why are we "Racist" or "Jingoistic" for wanting it as well?
    Just because Mexico is Jingoistic does not mean we should be the same. They don't have the jobs and can't support the immigrants the way that we can. A lot of what I like about being American is that we have in the past welcomed immigrants to this experiment in democracy and prosperity. 75 years ago ditch diggers from Italy came over and were given crap for wanting to help give their families a better life, 100 years ago it was the Irish, 125 years ago it was the Germans, usually it was not the cream of the society that came over here unless it was to escape political persecution, the high skilled and high society folks had no reason to come to America until the regime they supported fell. It took a million Irish men to get one Andrew Carnegy, it took a few million Germans to get one Henry Kissinger, how many great latino/chicano men from humble beginings might the world miss out on due to our attempts at blocking the current wave of immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    The wall, ALONG WITH resonable reform of immigration laws is necessary. And an unfunded mandate to build a wall is pathetic. Security measures along the entire border, as well as better container and security measures are necessary.

    As a society we pay a huge portion of our monetary spending paying for accidents, health care (though that is not as large a chunk as many might think), and other needs for people who have entered our nation not using the "official" channels. I realize that the process is difficult, but if people from all over the world can wait to come here (as I have previously mentioned) so can everyone else.
    All that is keeping the numbers from Asia lower than the numbers from the southern continent is the width of the Pacific Ocean, yet there are still well over ten thousand folks from Asia getting into the U.S. illegally every year.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

    This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
    The unemployment rate is below 5% while the help wanted ads in the newspaper are an entire thick section. Migrant farming wages are not great, you won't get rich off them, but they are pretty darn good considering, yet you don't see Americans packing up the family and following the jobs around much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Sharkie. I say this with all respect. We have a neighborhood in OC where this belief would be at home. It's called FANTASYLAND. I respect your position. In the past you have made your points with factual assertions and NOT knee jerk emotional reactions.

    The business community that I referred to earlier has way too much interest in maintaining the status quo won't allow this to happen. Until that group is affected adversely this is nothing more than 'pie in the sky' false hope. The social costs the rest of us shoulder are of no concern to them.
    Oh I know the business people wag the dog.

    And I know that some might feel this fantasy outlook, which true. I know that it will never happen - but dammit it is what needs to be done. That is what makes me a realist. No one will ever confuse me with being an optimist. It is just really sad that this is what we allow to happen in our country because we, as individual citizens, choose to not hold politicians accountable.
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    Dennis, all those folks came here, waited, were quarantined, and then allowed to come in and join our nation.

    All I ask is that they follow the process and the law. Even if the law is stupid or broken that is the system that you must operate in. If and when the law changes, then you adapt and continue to follow the law.

    But when a foreign nation prints fliers and survival guides for its citizens and encourages them to illegally enter another nation in violation of both nation's laws - then something must be done by at least one of those nations.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    Dennis, all those folks came here, waited, were quarantined, and then allowed to come in and join our nation.
    First not all of them came through the proper legal route. A large percent hid out in the stowage of freighters and ran right from the Brooklyn docks to little Italy or where ever. Just as the immigration population is up to 20% illegal today, it was probably around the same number of folks that did not go through the proper channels 75-150 years ago. Secondly we no longer offer up a way for someone to show up, prove that they are of able body, honest and willing to work hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    All I ask is that they follow the process and the law. Even if the law is stupid or broken that is the system that you must operate in. If and when the law changes, then you adapt and continue to follow the law.
    Sometimes we don't see how stupid and broken a law is until a mass of folks break the law. The onus is as much on us to fix that law as it is on them to follow it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    But when a foreign nation prints fliers and survival guides for its citizens and encourages them to illegally enter another nation in violation of both nation's laws - then something must be done by at least one of those nations.
    What the Mexican governement is doing is sort of on par with needle programs for addicts and condoms in schools. Can you try to keep folks who are doing the wrong thing as safe as possible with out condoning the action?
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    it was probably around the same number of folks that did not go through the proper channels 75-150 years ago.
    You’re probably right on with this statement, but that was yesterday. Life has changed in or country, with regard to our actual safety. I think that were on the same page with this issue, but we do need to stop the influx of people pouring across the border, somehow. Particularly with the knowledge that Hugo Chavez is reportedly helping terror states infiltrate terrorists into our country.

    This issue is NOT a racism issue, as some like to pretend it is, it is an issue like every other issue we have. It is an issue that needs to be looked at, and perhaps have changes made to immigration laws because changes in our world have happened, particularly with OUR safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    You’re probably right on with this statement, but that was yesterday. Life has changed in or country, with regard to our actual safety. I think that were on the same page with this issue, but we do need to stop the influx of people pouring across the border, somehow. Particularly with the knowledge that Hugo Chavez is reportedly helping terror states infiltrate terrorists into our country.

    This issue is NOT a racism issue, as some like to pretend it is, it is an issue like every other issue we have. It is an issue that needs to be looked at, and perhaps have changes made to immigration laws because changes in our world have happened, particularly with OUR safety.
    It is not racism, as it is the same thing that was applied to the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, etc. There is serious jingoistic feelings and bigotry though. The numbers should not be a concern of anyone who is confident in their ability to work and perform at their job, or compete for a new one. Where we need to deal with the numbers is in getting them in a system to be screened and tracked. By mearly increasing the numbers of visas we issue, we will be funneling the folks through our check points rather than through the strainer of the unsecuarable border. Take that money that would be wasted on the fence/wall and put it into technology for screening containers and cargo at our ports and points of entry. That will insure our economy and our security will be protected.
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    To (over)simplify, this country needs to focus on two things:
    1) Secure the boarder, both to reduce illegal imigration, and to keep JoeBadGuy from pretending to be a imigrant to sneak over and do ReallyBadStuff.
    2) At the same time, we should take a hard look at our legal imigration policy.

    BOTH need to be done to make this work. Doing one w/out the other is like Fire Supression withouth Vent. It will only make things worse, financially, socially, and politically.

    The issue of whether the boarder should be secure or not should not even be an issue. You cannot tell me it is not in this country's best interests to have a secure border. The US hardly a popular country and right now people are sneaking over our border. I don't care why. The ends don't justify the means. There is little difference between the person sneaking over to work, and the person sneaking over to destroy. More importantly, the system cannot be set up to try to make the determination on the fly, at the border. If someone wants to come here to work, do it the legal way. I'm sorry there is a line at our front door, but that doesn't justify sneaking around back.

    Regarding legal imigration. I think that the number of visa's available should not be a fixed-hard number. It should be based on population and the unemployment percentage and some estimate on available jobs. If there are a lot of jobs, let more in. If there aren't many jobs available, adding more imigrants is going to make it worse. We cannot have a fully open door on all imigrants. There is a limit to the US population. As we approach that limit things will get very hard for everyone involved. I'm sorry things suck in your country, but at some point we have to say "No room at the Inn". Now, I don't think we're at that point yet, but it is something to think about for those that think we should allow unlimited imigration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9
    To (over)simplify, this country needs to focus on two things:
    1) Secure the boarder, both to reduce illegal imigration, and to keep JoeBadGuy from pretending to be a imigrant to sneak over and do ReallyBadStuff.
    2) At the same time, we should take a hard look at our legal imigration policy.

    BOTH need to be done to make this work. Doing one w/out the other is like Fire Supression withouth Vent. It will only make things worse, financially, socially, and politically.

    The issue of whether the boarder should be secure or not should not even be an issue. You cannot tell me it is not in this country's best interests to have a secure border. The US hardly a popular country and right now people are sneaking over our border. I don't care why. The ends don't justify the means. There is little difference between the person sneaking over to work, and the person sneaking over to destroy. More importantly, the system cannot be set up to try to make the determination on the fly, at the border. If someone wants to come here to work, do it the legal way. I'm sorry there is a line at our front door, but that doesn't justify sneaking around back.

    Regarding legal imigration. I think that the number of visa's available should not be a fixed-hard number. It should be based on population and the unemployment percentage and some estimate on available jobs. If there are a lot of jobs, let more in. If there aren't many jobs available, adding more imigrants is going to make it worse. We cannot have a fully open door on all imigrants. There is a limit to the US population. As we approach that limit things will get very hard for everyone involved. I'm sorry things suck in your country, but at some point we have to say "No room at the Inn". Now, I don't think we're at that point yet, but it is something to think about for those that think we should allow unlimited imigration.
    Take care of number two on your list and number one will be much easier to do and will not require an expensive wall/fence. The Border Patrol currently has all the resources it would need to see, go after and stop any bad guy sneaking in IF they were not wasting time going after the hordes just looking for jobs to give them a better life.

    And your idea that there is a time to say "No room at the Inn" is B.S., as no matter our employment situation and others' economic situation, we will always accept some political refugees. Just look at the Cubans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    And your idea that there is a time to say "No room at the Inn" is B.S., as no matter our employment situation and others' economic situation, we will always accept some political refugees. Just look at the Cubans.
    I would like to hope that we as a country will always have room for those less fortunate who come here to better themselves. I also hope that as a country we are able to manage our resources and attain some modicum of sustainability. The resources of this land are not infinite and as our population rises demand for those reasources will also skyrocket. We may want to accept refugees, but may not be able to. Then again, if it ever gets that bad they probably wouldn't be trying to imigrate here and in fact, it may be us trying to imigrate there.

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    Talking the political way

    First you send in the CIA to disrupt the political heirarchy and bring chaos to the country, then you send in the troops to got to war with the country, then you annex the country, and then you establish buisnesses and take the countries resources and then it won't matter because they will all be US citizens and then they can immigrate to Canada. Just a thought. Maybe we could make Kerry president of mexico as a trial run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Wow. Same old namecalling. Don't lecture me about immigrants living in your area. We have thousands in this area. And they are just like us. The irrational actions of people like you are just that...and based on the same old fears that have been used as an excuse to lash out at people who are "different" (ie. not straight, white folk) for years in this nation.
    I have no fears of of different people....If I do I must be afraid of myself and my family. My home is so mixed it would make your head spin. I am hispanic, my wife and kids are registered tribal memnbers of the Tohono O'Odham Nation here in Tucson. My wifes father is full blooded O'Odham while her Mother was part hispanic and O'Odham.

    We also reside on the reservation. Granted the part we live in is the San Xavier District which butts right up to the city...its still a different world here.

    One of the Godparents to my Children is NOT straight.....each to their own I guess.

    By the way...all those immigrants in your area..probably entered through the reservation here to get to your fine city!

    Like I said in my first post...there are good honest folks that come accross the borders here..and then those who arent so honest and want only to take advantage of the system and contribute nothing.

    Your right..20% are just like you and me and the choose to do the right thing. Its the 80% I am not so sure about.
    Last edited by SSTONER; 11-02-2006 at 06:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Here's some logic for you...most of the right wingers who worry so much about what the evil invasion from Mexico is costing us were voracious supporters of the invasion of Iraq, a stupid war based on lies that is costing the U.S. taxpayer $177 million per DAY, with thousands upon thousands dead and maimed for life. And now they're worried about immigrants who are here working to better themselves getting health care for their sick children??? Nice.
    Some people need to get their priorities straight.
    Heres some logic for you sir...........

    There are approximately 15-20 million lillegal aliens in the US.

    In 2003 it cost Cochise County 30% of its annual budget for UNCOMPENSATEDcare to illegal aliens.

    Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee...which is close to Douglas spent $200,000 out of a net operting income of $300,000 that same year.

    University Medical Center here in Tucson spent $10 Million in uncompensated medical bills for Illegal aliens that year.

    Not to mention the medical equpitment that hospitals here in Az have tried to donate to Mexico and they refuse it! They would much rather send them here so they dont have to deal with the poor there.

    Not to mention the 80 Million a year for Az to incarcerate illegal aliens.....

    Oh and it costs us legal tax payers an additional $700 a year to provide education for those children that come here illegally. Roughly 810 million a year.

    I could go on and on....but you get the point right?
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    Your right..20% are just like you and me and the choose to do the right thing. Its the 80% I am not so sure about.
    I only have anecdotal information. I believe those numbers are just the opposite.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    Heres some logic for you sir...........

    There are approximately 15-20 million lillegal aliens in the US.

    In 2003 it cost Cochise County 30% of its annual budget for UNCOMPENSATEDcare to illegal aliens.
    And why isn't Cochise County demanding compensation from the Feds who refuse monitor the border? Or going after those who are caught employing illegals for a fine or surtax or whatever for compensation?

    Once again your target is misdirected.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    And why isn't Cochise County demanding compensation from the Feds who refuse monitor the border? Or going after those who are caught employing illegals for a fine or surtax or whatever for compensation?

    Once again your target is misdirected.
    The residents should be demanding higher taxes on the businesses that directly benefit from undoncumented workers if it is really as bad as Stoner says it is.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    The residents should be demanding higher taxes on the businesses that directly benefit from undoncumented workers if it is really as bad as Stoner says it is.
    It's much easier to blame the folks with no voice and no means to fight back.

    SStoner proves our points without even realizing it.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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