1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    It's much easier to blame the folks with no voice and no means to fight back.

    SStoner proves our points without even realizing it.
    It would be interesting to see his life under a microscope to see all of the benefit that he derives from undocumented labor.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Take care of number two on your list and number one will be much easier to do and will not require an expensive wall/fence. The Border Patrol currently has all the resources it would need to see, go after and stop any bad guy sneaking in IF they were not wasting time going after the hordes just looking for jobs to give them a better life.
    Apparantly you havnt been on the Arizona Border lately. I was posted on the border for 2 weeks in support of the BP. They have guys rotating from all the counrty to fill in the gaps, when the fill in finally learn the lay of the land bam the go back to their originall postings.

    The terrain dosnt work in your favor either. our area wasnt even close to being flat, tons of washes draws etc to get lost in.

    Also how are you going to be able to tell a horde (1-25 people) from a bunch of mules moving drugs, the Mexicn army protecting drugs, or what have you (in the dead of night)
    "Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS
    Apparantly you havnt been on the Arizona Border lately. I was posted on the border for 2 weeks in support of the BP. They have guys rotating from all the counrty to fill in the gaps, when the fill in finally learn the lay of the land bam the go back to their originall postings.

    The terrain dosnt work in your favor either. our area wasnt even close to being flat, tons of washes draws etc to get lost in.

    Also how are you going to be able to tell a horde (1-25 people) from a bunch of mules moving drugs, the Mexicn army protecting drugs, or what have you (in the dead of night)
    That is the POINT! If we get the visas to the workers they won't be trying to sneak across, they will be crossing at the check points, then if you see folks sneaking across, which we have the tools and resources to do, you know they are bad guys and know they are up to no go, not just trying to go pick berries. As you point out, the problem we have right now is man power, but that is only because of the numbers crossing away from the check points.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    And why isn't Cochise County demanding compensation from the Feds who refuse monitor the border? Or going after those who are caught employing illegals for a fine or surtax or whatever for compensation?

    Once again your target is misdirected.
    "The residents should be demanding higher taxes on the businesses that directly benefit from undoncumented workers if it is really as bad as Stoner says it is."


    Brilliant, raise taxes, surtax's, excise tax's, Illegal alien tax's on Federal, State and local level.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    "The residents should be demanding higher taxes on the businesses that directly benefit from undoncumented workers if it is really as bad as Stoner says it is."


    Brilliant, raise taxes, surtax's, excise tax's, Illegal alien tax's on Federal, State and local level.
    If the business men are benefiting, and their benefit is costing the community, some of that benefit should be used to alliviate the burden on the community. Pretty darn simple.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    "The residents should be demanding higher taxes on the businesses that directly benefit from undoncumented workers if it is really as bad as Stoner says it is."


    Brilliant, raise taxes, surtax's, excise tax's, Illegal alien tax's on Federal, State and local level.
    And why not? Then accept the fact that the businesses who benefit are getting a free ride on your back. This is a zero sum option. Either you pay, or someone else does? Take your pick.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    SC,

    I choose enforcing the current immigration laws until a solution is in place. Believe me I realize we need major changes.
    Until then no American citizen should be forced to bare the burden when our government refuses to enforce its own laws.
    Last edited by RoughRider; 11-02-2006 at 05:04 PM.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    SC,

    I choose enforcing the current immigration laws until a solution is in place. Believe me I realize we need major changes.
    Until then no American citizen should be forced to bare the burden when our government refuses to enforce its own laws.
    The current law is unenforcable though because the policies are so screwed up. The policy can be changed almost immediately, or atleast relatively quickly and much faster than a wall/fence can be built, if the leaders in Washington would hear folks calling for positive change in the policy and not just a mix of let them all stay or lock them all up and out.

    And if the burden is there, why should we not make the folks benefiting cough up the funds to alleve a bit of it?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    And why isn't Cochise County demanding compensation from the Feds who refuse monitor the border? Or going after those who are caught employing illegals for a fine or surtax or whatever for compensation?

    Once again your target is misdirected.
    This nothing more than robbing paul to pay peter....wonderful.

    So either way I have to pay for it?
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    This nothing more than robbing paul to pay peter....wonderful.

    So either way I have to pay for it?
    Your correct. Paul is the business owner. You are Peter. The way the system is currently configured, Paul is getting a free ride on Peter's back. If you don't believe those benefitting should pay a share then accept the fact that your taxes are benefitting others.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-03-2006 at 12:25 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    It's much easier to blame the folks with no voice and no means to fight back.

    SStoner proves our points without even realizing it.
    I dont blame the people completely...I blame Mexico and its so called government.

    They simply refuse to employ any reform to help those mexican citizens who truly want to stay but cant afford to. You dont see the middle class mexican citizens running over here or the wealthy. Mexico is a great place if you dont live in a shack on the border.

    The ones with money only buy vacation homes over here and shop. They arent looking to collect welfare benefits.

    Maybe we should look for a country to take our sick and poor off our hands too.

    The only blame from this side of the border is what a great country we live in.
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    It would be interesting to see his life under a microscope to see all of the benefit that he derives from undocumented labor.
    I am sure there are products I consume that are from undocumented workers here.....after all there are some great restraunts in south tucson.
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Your correct. Paul is the business owner. You are Peter. The way the system is currently configured, Paul is getting a free ride on Peter's back. If you don't believe those benefitting should pay a share then accept the fact that your taxes are benefitting others.
    You know you have hit on what those for immigration reform here in AZ want to change.

    It goes from the business who knowingly employee illegals right down to changing the mindset of the Mexican government.

    Keep in mind many illegals find folks who sell them fake ID and SS cards to gain employment.
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
    EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    I am sure there are products I consume that are from undocumented workers here.....after all there are some great restraunts in south tucson.
    Do you enjoy your neighbors lawn looking nice or would you rather they look like crap? Go to a hotel/motel this year? Did you like having the room clean? Been to a newly constructed building lately? Go to your bank or the mall lately? Did you enjoy the cleanseness there? Did you have a salad or fruit to eat this week? Damn right you consume products from undocumented workers. And the fact is that many of those folks are working with forged documents so that they are paying taxes and paying into social security yet will never get a chance to collect that ss contribution or get a refund of any over payment on the taxes.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    The workers will find a way to the jobs, lets get them visas, keep them documented and crossing at the checkpoints! It is the right thing to do, and just so happens to be the thing to do that is also in our best interests.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Damn right you consume products from undocumented workers. And the fact is that many of those folks are working with forged documents so that they are paying taxes and paying into social security yet will never get a chance to collect that ss contribution or get a refund of any over payment on the taxes.
    Do you have any facts/numbers on the amount those who are illegal and paying taxes put in vs. how much they take out? I would bet more money is spent by those legally living here paying taxes supporting those who are illegal than they are supporting themselves or others. We are paying for their: Medicaid, medical treatment for those uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools, etc. The products we consume from these illegal aliens ("undocumented workers") comes at too high a price.

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    Also, many get paid cash, they don't get paid with checks because they don't have a bank account to get the money. So, taxes are NOT taken out. Plus, much of the money they earn is sent back to Mexico, or wherever they're from to their families.
    Contractors know they can pay them less with no payroll taxes. This is not enforced enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Do you have any facts/numbers on the amount those who are illegal and paying taxes put in vs. how much they take out? I would bet more money is spent by those legally living here paying taxes supporting those who are illegal than they are supporting themselves or others. We are paying for their: Medicaid, medical treatment for those uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools, etc. The products we consume from these illegal aliens ("undocumented workers") comes at too high a price.
    This might be a good place to start.

    S & P's Analysis of Illegal Immigration
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    An online magazine with maybe two paragraphs of minimal and broad statistical information. great!

    Doesn't change what I wrote in my above two posts, and doesn't prove illegals' tax contributions (however large...or tiny they may be) would make up for the money they are using from our taxes via healthcare, judicial system, etc etc etc. Plus the fact that many aren't paid legally...

    Breaking the law is breaking the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    An online magazine with maybe two paragraphs of minimal and broad statistical information. great!
    You might have missed this part where I wrote, "This might be a good place to start." I was thinking you might have been inspired to do a little more digging on your own. Sorry, I was mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Breaking the law is breaking the law.
    So is running a stop sign. And I don't see people getting all wacked about that.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Do you enjoy your neighbors lawn looking nice or would you rather they look like crap? Go to a hotel/motel this year? Did you like having the room clean? Been to a newly constructed building lately? Go to your bank or the mall lately? Did you enjoy the cleanseness there? Did you have a salad or fruit to eat this week? Damn right you consume products from undocumented workers. And the fact is that many of those folks are working with forged documents so that they are paying taxes and paying into social security yet will never get a chance to collect that ss contribution or get a refund of any over payment on the taxes.
    Forgery is a crime... any how, most "undocumented" workers work solely under the table. No taxes paid at all.

    Most use the hospital ER as their doctor's office for everything. Since they caqnnot be turned away, someone has to pay...that means those who have health insurance or can pay out of pocket.

    My local hospital rarely went on diversion due to a backup in the ER.. now it has become almost a daily occurrence.
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    You might have missed this part where I wrote, "This might be a good place to start." I was thinking you might have been inspired to do a little more digging on your own. Sorry, I was mistaken.
    I've given my answer, I was hoping for a more informed debate from the other point of view. Sorry, I was mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    I've given my answer, I was hoping for a more informed debate from the other point of view. Sorry, I was mistaken.
    Business Week and S & P are both highly respected institutions in the business and finance community. I'm sure if you were to contact them directly they would be more than happy to accomodate your request.

    Be prepared. That will require you to put forth some effort.

    Are you up to it?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    If you'll look at my first post, I have given much data on the issue. Other posts by myself have raised issues that have not been addresed by anyone. I havn't seen hardly any effort put in from you; You aren't convincing me. You're bantering...not debating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Forgery is a crime... any how, most "undocumented" workers work solely under the table. No taxes paid at all.

    Most use the hospital ER as their doctor's office for everything. Since they caqnnot be turned away, someone has to pay...that means those who have health insurance or can pay out of pocket.

    My local hospital rarely went on diversion due to a backup in the ER.. now it has become almost a daily occurrence.
    Cap, to a point I will agree with you, BUT it is very variable.

    I work now in a moderate sized city in 2 hospitals (one sees about 35,000 patients a year and the other about 70,000 a year) in North Carolina.

    The 35,000 hospital is about equivalent to Marlborough Hospital. We really do not see a whole lot of illegal immigrants in our ED - and I will tell you that there is NO shortage of illegal immigrants in North Carolina.

    Then again, the County Health Department gives a lot of care and the municipal/county support network. But therein lies the cost. Local and county property taxes, along with the 2.5% County sales tax pay for it - along with Medicaid taxes.

    Now the OB ward - spitting out babies like mad, and Medicare makes sure that the costs are covered. And OB costs are not cheap - especially if there are complications or a high risk pregnancy. And there are tons of those.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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