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  1. #101
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Do you have any facts/numbers on the amount those who are illegal and paying taxes put in vs. how much they take out? I would bet more money is spent by those legally living here paying taxes supporting those who are illegal than they are supporting themselves or others. We are paying for their: Medicaid, medical treatment for those uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools, etc. The products we consume from these illegal aliens ("undocumented workers") comes at too high a price.
    Most American Tax payers consume more than the taxes they pay, the top 10% of tax payers pay 90% of the revenue. So you are condemning most Americans with this post. The fact is that foreign workers, documented or not, do contribute to our tax base. The fact that the undocumented can't collect a refund or on their social security contributions shows that they will contribute more than many native born Americans who accept government assistance.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?


  2. #102
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Also, many get paid cash, they don't get paid with checks because they don't have a bank account to get the money. So, taxes are NOT taken out. Plus, much of the money they earn is sent back to Mexico, or wherever they're from to their families.
    Contractors know they can pay them less with no payroll taxes. This is not enforced enough.
    Legit businesses can't get away with paying anyone in cash, they have books that they must keep in order and can't afford to be making grossly illegal pay outs. They pay folks with checks who provide documentation that they can work, the documents are just not always legit, and those checks have FICA and SocSec and allthe other deductions taken out. Why do you think that there are check cashing places with Western Unions in all of the immigrant neighborhoods, they are the de facto banking establishments for these folks.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  3. #103
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Most American Tax payers consume more than the taxes they pay, the top 10% of tax payers pay 90% of the revenue. So you are condemning most Americans with this post. The fact is that foreign workers, documented or not, do contribute to our tax base. The fact that the undocumented can't collect a refund or on their social security contributions shows that they will contribute more than many native born Americans who accept government assistance.
    OC is ground zero for the illegal immigration movement.

    Thank you for pointing that out. When I hear that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes I ask which ones? You can hear an ant pass gas. They pay all the taxes everyone else pays, and as you pointed out, won't collect Social Security and few or none won't get refunds on the state or federal tax they may be owed.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #104
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    OC is ground zero for the illegal immigration movement.

    Thank you for pointing that out. When I hear that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes I ask which ones? You can hear an ant pass gas. They pay all the taxes everyone else pays, and as you pointed out, won't collect Social Security and few or none won't get refunds on the state or federal tax they may be owed.
    Quit agreeing with me hippy, you are going to make me look bad!
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  5. #105
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Quit agreeing with me hippy, you are going to make me look bad!
    Just cuz we're holding hands doesn't mean we're going to start taking long showers into the wee hours of the morning.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #106
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Just cuz we're holding hands doesn't mean we're going to start taking long showers into the wee hours of the morning.
    Gunny Highway is gonna kick your butt on this week of the Marine Corps birthday.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  7. #107
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Gunny Highway is gonna kick your butt on this week of the Marine Corps birthday.
    Again?????
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #108
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Again?????
    That is right bucko! For 231 glorious years.

    And yeah, your butt will get kicked.....again.

    If it keeps happening people are going to say that you like it.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  9. #109
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    The law is being broken, not just by those illegally being here. You're assumption that all employers follow the law is a falacy. They hire day laborers that they pay in cash, and hire other workers as contract labor. Both of which don't have taxes taken out by the empoyer. For contract labor, the worker (not the business owner) is supposed to pay their own SocSec and Medicare, and file their own tax return, but many don't. They use a fake ID or SS# that is difficult for IRS or State Taxing authorities to track down. The business owner won't get in trouble for their worker's fake ID. If they don't pay the individual more than $600 per year, the "employer" isn't required to file a 1099 (report them at all). If more, they are supposed to. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Some take chances and hide in the paperwork. They would have to be audited by IRS to get caught, but there aren't nearly enough resources for this to be a huge threat.

    I am curious to know where you got your 10% /90% statistic on taxpers into the revenue. As far as I've heard that isn't true, or perhaps an old claim.

  10. #110
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Gunny Highway is gonna kick your butt on this week of the Marine Corps birthday.

    Wait till the 'Swede' gets out of the brig ... he'll rip his head off, then dump in it ...

  11. #111
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    The law is being broken, not just by those illegally being here. You're assumption that all employers follow the law is a falacy. They hire day laborers that they pay in cash, and hire other workers as contract labor. Both of which don't have taxes taken out by the empoyer. For contract labor, the worker (not the business owner) is supposed to pay their own SocSec and Medicare, and file their own tax return, but many don't. They use a fake ID or SS# that is difficult for IRS or State Taxing authorities to track down. The business owner won't get in trouble for their worker's fake ID. If they don't pay the individual more than $600 per year, the "employer" isn't required to file a 1099 (report them at all). If more, they are supposed to. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Some take chances and hide in the paperwork. They would have to be audited by IRS to get caught, but there aren't nearly enough resources for this to be a huge threat.

    I am curious to know where you got your 10% /90% statistic on taxpers into the revenue. As far as I've heard that isn't true, or perhaps an old claim.
    The IRS has all the money numbers online for you to see for yourself. Funny how both the Dems and the GOP agree on that one, the dems use it to show the disparity between the rich that make 90% of the money and how they should thus pay their own share, while the GOP points out that they pay the taxes on 90% of the nations income and thus do pay more than their share.

    If a contractor wants reliable help, and most do, they keep folks around and thus have to file paper work on them. Either you believe folks are generally honest or you don't. Generally folks file the paper work they need to because IRS audits are not the only ones over seeing their paperwork. You have OSHA at the federal and state who can spot BS paperwork and when they do will look at things closer. Face it, your premise that illegals rip us off and make life any worse than any native borns or other citizens is just not as bad as you think. Your anti-immigrant stance has little solid basis.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #112
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    You really think no one pays cash under the table??? So all those Russians and Poles at the gas stations are going to be put on a legit payroll for the day? All the Mexicans at Home Depot are going to fill out W-2's when they get picked up for a drywall job? Hell, I've even worked for cash when I was younger. Get real, it happens all the time.
    Sure but it is a tiny fraction of the labor provided. Most undocumented workers are out there working under false documents. How do you think The Drake is kept so clean?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Legit businesses can't get away with paying anyone in cash, they have books that they must keep in order and can't afford to be making grossly illegal pay outs.
    You really think no one pays cash under the table??? So all those Russians and Poles at the gas stations are going to be put on a legit payroll for the day? All the Mexicans at Home Depot are going to fill out W-2's when they get picked up for a drywall job? Hell, I've even worked for cash when I was younger. Get real, it happens all the time.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 11-07-2006 at 02:53 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  14. #114
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    I have to say that I'm with Chicago here. There may be undocumented employees working under false paper, but in my experience I have seen many more who are paid just cash.
    How else would the 'daily pay for daily work' pick up places operate otherwise? Everytime we are out at 4-5 am, they're all lined up around the corners, and down the block, and they all appear to be of Latino ancestry, and anytime we have dealt with them, they are all Spanish only speakers.

    I think the cash under the table pay is far more prevalent than either people know, or are willing to admit.

  15. #115
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    I have to say that I'm with Chicago here. There may be undocumented employees working under false paper, but in my experience I have seen many more who are paid just cash.
    How else would the 'daily pay for daily work' pick up places operate otherwise? Everytime we are out at 4-5 am, they're all lined up around the corners, and down the block, and they all appear to be of Latino ancestry, and anytime we have dealt with them, they are all Spanish only speakers.

    I think the cash under the table pay is far more prevalent than either people know, or are willing to admit.
    The fact is those day laborer hang outs are a tiny fraction of the workers out there. And they really don't constitute that many folks in the agrigate. Most workers come up here and get work with companies that family members are already working for. Just look at your local hotels or large construction sites, that is "unskilled labor" those folks are working under false papers, and the large hotels that have four or five thousand workers in the cleaning departments are hireing those folks full time, they can't go out and hit the 7-11's, Cirlcle-K's and street corners every morning, they need to know the folks are there everyday.

    It is easy to say that they are this huge drain on our society, but basic analysis shows that is not true. The only real problem is that the restrictions on them means that a crimminal eliment can florish in their midst. It starts when they are forced to sneak across the border to find work, thus providing flak and cover for smugglers and crimminals, and maybe even terrorists. Give the workers Visas so that they will cross at check points and the crimminals and terrorists lose that cover. The problems continue when the migrant workers and construction labor are between agriculture/construction seasons with nothing to do and no way to go home, since they won't be able to just come right back. So they hang out with nothing constructive to do and they get into trouble, just like our native youth when they don't have anything to do when school is out.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  16. #116
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    This just in! Actress Adrienne Shelly murdered by illegal alien in NYC! Just in time to stir the pot!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  17. #117
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Give the workers Visas so that they will cross at check points and the crimminals and terrorists lose that cover.

    I agree with you fully here. I don’t believe that a fence is going to solve the problem. If you read back earlier in this thread you will see that. I am not opposed to immigration, I just want to know who is in this country. I agree also, that the majority, if not 99% of those smuggling themselves into the US from Mexico only want to work in order to better themself, and their family. No problem, come on in, just check in at the border and let us know where you’re going to work, and don’t create problems or commit crimes while you’re here.
    I simply believe that there are more employers paying cash under the table than what the “statistics” show. It certainly seems to be the case here.

  18. #118
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    This just in! Actress Adrienne Shelly murdered by illegal alien in NYC! Just in time to stir the pot!
    The construction company he worked for was deducting taxes from his checks.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  19. #119
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    If a contractor wants reliable help, and most do, they keep folks around and thus have to file paper work on them. Either you believe folks are generally honest or you don't. Generally folks file the paper work they need to because IRS audits are not the only ones over seeing their paperwork. You have OSHA at the federal and state who can spot BS paperwork and when they do will look at things closer. Face it, your premise that illegals rip us off and make life any worse than any native borns or other citizens is just not as bad as you think. Your anti-immigrant stance has little solid basis.
    First, understand that I don't have an anti-immigrant stance, I have an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant stance.

    A contractor wants cheap help. Help they can pay cheaply and not have to pay taxes out on. Makes sense right? This is honest, nothing illegal about what the employer is doing if they pay the worker cash or a check for contract labor. It would be illegal if the employer were to hide the taxable workers in their 1099. Many do, not all or maybe not most, but many do. some get caught some don't. That's just the way it is. You're probably right that most are following the law. Even if that is so, they can still hire illegals and pay cash or check for contract labor.

    It is as bad as I think...worse than you think. You think any given illegal alien's tax contributions (if any at all) pay for their children's schooling, their ER visits, hospital bills, court usage, prison costs, etc etc etc etc?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    The construction company he worked for was deducting taxes from his checks.
    Which won't come close to paying the bill to imprison this dirtbag for the next 20 years. Yeah, great deal for the U.S. taxpayer.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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