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  1. #121
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Which won't come close to paying the bill to imprison this dirtbag for the next 20 years. Yeah, great deal for the U.S. taxpayer.
    And most legal resident and citizen murderers have payed the taxes that cover their Incarceration?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?


  2. #122
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    First, understand that I don't have an anti-immigrant stance, I have an anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant stance.
    Sure does not seem like it when you oppose making it possible for those folks to come here legally in the first place by making an uneffective wall/fence a priority over basic policy change.

    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    A contractor wants cheap help. Help they can pay cheaply and not have to pay taxes out on. Makes sense right? This is honest, nothing illegal about what the employer is doing if they pay the worker cash or a check for contract labor. It would be illegal if the employer were to hide the taxable workers in their 1099. Many do, not all or maybe not most, but many do. some get caught some don't. That's just the way it is. You're probably right that most are following the law. Even if that is so, they can still hire illegals and pay cash or check for contract labor.
    So you have been in the business world a while huh? A contractor needs RELIABLE workers, he will try to pay the minimum that he has to like anyother businessman of course, but his priority is on reliable help for that price. That is if he wants to continue to get jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    It is as bad as I think...worse than you think. You think any given illegal alien's tax contributions (if any at all) pay for their children's schooling, their ER visits, hospital bills, court usage, prison costs, etc etc etc etc?
    VERY few American's pay more taxes then they consume in government services. It is the upper class that pay a massive amount of the taxes who cover the difference for you and I. But those illegals working under fake documents who can't apply for their refund or SocSec are most likely paying a higer tax rate than you or I.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  3. #123
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    Sure does not seem like it when you oppose making it possible for those folks to come here legally in the first place by making an uneffective wall/fence a priority over basic policy change.
    A fence is to keep the ILLEGAL immigrants out and reduce border crime. I highly doubt legal immigrants are going to jump over a fence or hike through the valley trying to cross the border. There is a current legal process. When and how that is changed is out of my control (aside from voting). I DON'T have any problem with LEGAL immigration. I think it's great. I also never said a wall should be a priority over basic policy change. I merely argued that it wasn't "worthless" and would be effective in the mean time, while we wait around for a policy change to be agreed upon...which could take a while.
    Don't put words in my mouth.

    A contractor needs RELIABLE workers, he will try to pay the minimum that he has to like anyother businessman of course, but his priority is on reliable help for that price. That is if he wants to continue to get jobs.
    I'm just repeating myself on this...to save me the trouble of re-typing it, read my above post again. Why do you think there are so many illegals getting these types of jobs? because they CAN.

    VERY few American's pay more taxes then they consume in government services. It is the upper class that pay a massive amount of the taxes who cover the difference for you and I. But those illegals working under fake documents who can't apply for their refund or SocSec are most likely paying a higer tax rate than you or I.
    The illegals working under fake documents don't pay the taxes! Hints the "fake documents" part. Did you not read any of what I wrote above?

  4. #124
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    A fence is to keep the ILLEGAL immigrants out and reduce border crime. I highly doubt legal immigrants are going to jump over a fence or hike through the valley trying to cross the border. There is a current legal process. When and how that is changed is out of my control (aside from voting). I DON'T have any problem with LEGAL immigration. I think it's great. I also never said a wall should be a priority over basic policy change. I merely argued that it wasn't "worthless" and would be effective in the mean time, while we wait around for a policy change to be agreed upon...which could take a while.
    Don't put words in my mouth.
    A fence or wall is worthless since it will never seal the entire border and everytime a section is built, it only moves folks east or west to new places to sneak across, it does not lower the actual numbers of crossers. They cross because there are jobs here and we only pass out 10K visas a year for unskilled laborer, they have no reasonable system to follow to get in. We need to fix that so that they can come in legally and be tracked.



    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    I'm just repeating myself on this...to save me the trouble of re-typing it, read my above post again. Why do you think there are so many illegals getting these types of jobs? because they CAN.
    You can get those jobs too, they don't pay badly at all, but they are not glamourous and they are hard physical labor.



    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    The illegals working under fake documents don't pay the taxes! Hints the "fake documents" part. Did you not read any of what I wrote above?
    I guess I don't pay taxes since my boss is deducting them. An employee of a contractor is not a contract employee. You really need to take some classes on employment law before you graduate.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  5. #125
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    A fence or wall is worthless since it will never seal the entire border and everytime a section is built, it only moves folks east or west to new places to sneak across, it does not lower the actual numbers of crossers. They cross because there are jobs here and we only pass out 10K visas a year for unskilled laborer, they have no reasonable system to follow to get in. We need to fix that so that they can come in legally and be tracked.
    Increased border patrol and walls have proven good for places along the border. Your right, it is not a solution to the illegal immigration problem. A change in policy needs to be agreed upon by those we voted for. Until then, a wall and increased border patrol has helped in some areas. The borders need to be as secure as possible...for many reasons.
    More visas is a good idea, as long as there are ways the workers can be tracked.

    You can get those jobs too, they don't pay badly at all, but they are not glamourous and they are hard physical labor.
    And your point is...???

    I guess I don't pay taxes since my boss is deducting them. An employee of a contractor is not a contract employee.
    A contractor is anyone who "hires" contract labor. If they are contract workers, they are technically not "employees," and I never said they were. Contract workers must pay the taxes themselves (their employer doesn't file for them). Many workers don't pay these taxes, and because they have fake ID's they can get away with it. I explained this twice before...

    You really need to take some classes on employment law before you graduate.
    Nope, I will graduate with all the classes I need. If you want to be my academic advisor for next semester I'd first suggest getting a doctoral degree. Now, let's please try to debate points without making cheap satire. I read enough of that for literature class.

  6. #126
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    I wake up in an America where Congress is once again in Democratic hands and SC & DTM have tag-teamed on the same side of an issue...

    Maybe I am just having a bad dream Unfortunately, I'm pretty much on SC's side of this issue, too.


    1) Anyone who uses the term "illegal immigrant" has already conceded a major point to their opponents. It's illegal alien. An immigrant is permenantly changing residency, and if you know you're here illegally, I can't see how you can assume you have a right to be a resident...

    2) I'm not so sure it's NAFTA that needs to be re-worked...as it is the trade agreements with China. While I'm not a protectionist...at the same time trade can be a tool of foreign policy, and I'd much rather have a financially stable Mexico on our southern border than just about anything else to do with national security. So yeah, give them more favorable tariffs then China.

    3) A fence in places make sense. But not many.

    4) A key peice of economic growth is population growth. We need more immigration, not less. More baby making wouldn't hurt either.

    5) Make it easy to get alien work permits.
    a) Good health & sound mind;
    b) No serious criminal history (yes I recognize this could be weak to check in foreign countries)
    c) Fingerprint & DNA swab (like criminal history, checked against the U.S. databases)
    d) Working knowledge of written & spoken English. Why pay coyotes to smuggle you when you can pay for classes instead?

    (And those here already get to apply under the same conditions)

    6) Whack the employers if they're knowingly hiring illegal aliens; and come down like a ton of bricks if they haven't been paying the proper taxes.

    7) Through having a clear and efficient work permit process, and reducing demand for those who can't get permits but holding employers accountable...

    Border Patrol can come down like a ton of bricks on whoever is still crossing the border because there probably is a truly nefarious reason why.

    Let's not go down a silly War on Drugs path with Immigration. Legalize them and bring them into the system in a consistent and long-term manner so they're paying taxes and receiving fair benefits.

    Matt

  7. #127
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    I agree, Matt.
    I am using the term "illegal immigrant" to refer to those who are living here from another country illegally. Same to me as "illegal alien." Semantics.

  8. #128
    Fir Na Tine LuckyThirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    A contractor is anyone who "hires" contract labor. If they are contract workers, they are technically not "employees," and I never said they were. Contract workers must pay the taxes themselves (their employer doesn't file for them). Many workers don't pay these taxes, and because they have fake ID's they can get away with it. I explained this twice before...
    Actually you are only partially correct and most of it lies in your choice of words. Many contractors have payroll employees that they are responsible from deducting money from for taxes. Any person working for a contractor, but not an actual employee is considered a sub-contractor. Contractors are SUPPOSED to deduct the taxes from their employees paychecks and, I know (as well as you do) that isn't always the case, but that's what is supposed to happen. The way around that is to pay employees as sub-contractors

    Dalmatian190,

    Great post man. Hit a lot of key points.
    Last edited by LuckyThirteen; 11-09-2006 at 06:57 AM.
    Tom Warshaw
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    "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

    September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

    In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


    All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

  9. #129
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Nope, I will graduate with all the classes I need. If you want to be my academic advisor for next semester I'd first suggest getting a doctoral degree. Now, let's please try to debate points without making cheap satire. I read enough of that for literature class.
    Academic advisors give academic advice to keep you on the road to a degree, sometimes you need classes that get you ahead in life and thus need a life advisor.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  10. #130
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    Actually you are only partially correct and most of it lies in your choice of words. Many contractors have payroll employees that they are responsible from deducting money from for taxes. Any person working for a contractor, but not an actual employee is considered a sub-contractor. Contractors are SUPPOSED to deduct the taxes from their employees paychecks and, I know (as well as you do) that isn't always the case, but that's what is supposed to happen. The way around that is to pay employees as sub-contractors
    Yes, you re-worded exactly what I wrote. Except you used the term "sub-conrtactors" where I used the term "contract workers." Semantics.

  11. #131
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    Academic advisors give academic advice to keep you on the road to a degree, sometimes you need classes that get you ahead in life and thus need a life advisor.
    So, one of your arguments in this discussion on illegal immigration ("illegal aliens") is that I should take a course based on your suggestion to "get ahead in life" and need a "life advisor"? ooooook
    I'm doing great in my studies without you as my "life advisor." Thanks for the random inquire that distracts from the actual topic of discussion.

  12. #132
    Fir Na Tine LuckyThirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Yes, you re-worded exactly what I wrote
    Not quite. If you think that, I suggest you reread both our posts again.
    Tom Warshaw
    Station 13 (Bethel)
    Sumter Fire Department

    "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

    September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

    In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


    All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

  13. #133
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927
    Yes, you re-worded exactly what I wrote. Except you used the term "sub-conrtactors" where I used the term "contract workers." Semantics.
    Contractors on construction sites are not contract workers, and good ones do not use contract workers for most work.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  14. #134
    Forum Member emtbff927's Avatar
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    Contractors on construction sites are not contract workers, and good ones do not use contract workers for most work.
    What do you mean by the "contractors"? Are you referring to general contractors or sub-contractors? Either way, it's still semantics because Both could have independent contractors working for them. Workers may be indepent contractors or employees...this not only applies to the construction industry, but other businesses as well. A person who is legally eligible to work as a contract laborer, be them independent or sub-contractor, if the individual has a false ID and the person paying them relies on that number to be legal, then they (the one paying the worker) didn't break the law, but the worker who didn't pay the tax did.

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