Thread: Sacred Cows

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    Default Sacred Cows

    With a few topics over the past few months the idea of sacred cow fire departments that simply can't be questioned unless you are a member of some elite clique has entered my head.

    Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions. Since I am a paid fireman in a medium sized city in Wisconsin I guess I have a perspective on that side and since I am a volly out in a 2 blinker rural town I also have that perspective.

    It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies. It seems unless you are one of either of these groups you dare not impune them ever by questioning something they do. Frankly, asking a question or trying to debate with someone about what they do that you feel is simply wrong or dangerous always evolves into my Balls are bigger than yours and you never walked in my shoes so WTF do you know about anything.

    What's my point? Maybe simply this: Just because any FD does something and has done it for years doesn't make it automatically right or wrong. Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't make them old fashioned or a stupid wacker from the sticks. Different places do things differently, always have, always will. Every debate or disagreement doesn;t have to become a cyber ****ing match.

    Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions.

    It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies.


    Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

    FyredUp
    Seems like you're baiting a hook for the very thread you claim to hate

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    It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
    When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

    Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

    Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

    You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.
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    I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

    That’s why I always set my goals low … that way, I rarely fail, and on those occasions I do succeed, people are pleasantly surprised.

    Those beers await, Brother.
    After all, the most sacred cow of them all, is the Spotted Cow.
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    FyredUp,

    I agree with you. There has been way too much BS on the forums in recent weeks so I have been occupying my time elsewhere. I hope it is just me being tired and it has not turned into the waste of time that it has felt like lately. To GET respect you have to GIVE respect from the probie to the chief. We are all in this together. We have enough MUTTS, CHOOLS, or whatever you want to call them trying to knock us down in this world. We don't need to help them out.

    It's sad to me that the only time we really band together is when tragedy strikes. Whether it is a big city or small town LODD, brothers will come out of the woodwork to show support. So why do we let ourselves get into such personal ****ing matches on these forums? To ask for total harmony would be unrealistic, but I think it's fair to ask people to THINK before they post.

    Years ago I used to fly off the handle on these boards over a certain departed member (LHS RIP) posts and vent my frustrations on here. I learned a lot from a certain big city LT (who will remain nameless) and since then I always type out my responses, read them for a while, and decide whether it's really going to matter the next day. I'd like to think that this method has helped me from looking like a complete jerk more than a few times.

    I leave you with this from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

    Main Entry: broth·er·hood
    Pronunciation: 'br&-[th]&r-"hud
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English brotherhede, brotherhod, alteration of brotherrede, from Old English brOthorr[AE]den, from brOthor + r[AE]den condition -- more at KINDRED
    1 : the quality or state of being brothers
    2 : FELLOWSHIP, ALLIANCE
    3 : an association (as a labor union or monastic society) for a particular purpose
    4 : the whole body of persons engaged in a business or profession
    Tom

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    This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

    Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.
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    . . . and the purpose of this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJFFSA16
    This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

    Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.

    Well, maybe you need to post "over there" more often then!
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
    When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

    Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

    Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

    You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.
    I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

    Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.
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    Default Sacred Cows?

    Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Dont like Holy Cow.

    STEAK on the BBQ

    NOW we are talking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
    Tom Warshaw
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    I thought all cows would be sacred to you guys ... who love your leather lids, that is!
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

    Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.

    Where exactly in my post do I take his comments out of context? or bash him into the stone age? I went out of my way to make sure he knew I wasnt bashing him, or his way of thinking. Stop stirring the pot.
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    You can have the leather, I want the steaks!!!

    I agree. Why are we "one family" in a time of tragedy?

    Seriously, sometimes the "big city" guys get a puffy chest because they are the big city guys. Sometimes the "vollies" or the "small town guys" or the "career" guys get puffy chested about stuff too.

    Listen, we all get a little puffy chested and big headed about stuff we feel strongly about sometimes. To be honest, the fire doesn't change, the way we put it out doesn't change, the danger doesn't change. This means that we are all equals when you get down to the meat of things( sorry bout the pun). There are always going to little squabbles and disagreements about stuff and there are always going to be people you just don't get along with. That's life. You are just going to agree to disagree and move on.

    When you take an attitude that is less than professional, or even dishonorable, that is the true disappointment. We have to remember, if we don't support ourselves, who will?

    Ok kids.........fight nice now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by medicmaster
    Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age.
    After someone posted many reasons why bunker gear might not be the right choice for them you came back with the brilliant reply "If you really do that many runs then why are your guys fat - and in case that wasn't a dumb enough statement I'll post this picture of two random people wearing fdny gear as proof of my stupidity" Yeah, totally legit post.
    In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great"
    No it didn't, it turned into a discussion about facts and you didn't like the fact that your opinion about 3/4's was questioned and answered. And if you reread it, pretty much everyone did say wear what you want except you - who said if you don't like bunkers lose some weight.
    and then get attacked because of your chosen profession,
    Where did anyone attack you, paragod? Simply pointing out that it is obvious where your main interest lies is hardly getting attacked. It would be the same if you were a butcher for three different companies, called yourself meatgod, and came around spouting an opinion that fdny is too fat and if you don't like bunkers maybe you should drop some weight. Just because you dabble in firefighting does not give your opinions much weight with me personally.
    or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is
    I don't even know what this is about.
    I'm glad we had this talk though. I will refrain from posting my opinion of your opinions in the future as you don't seem to be able to take any disagreement without being hurt or offended.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    After someone posted many reasons why bunker gear might not be the right choice for them you came back with the brilliant reply "If you really do that many runs then why are your guys fat - and in case that wasn't a dumb enough statement I'll post this picture of two random people wearing fdny gear as proof of my stupidity" Yeah, totally legit post. No it didn't, it turned into a discussion about facts and you didn't like the fact that your opinion about 3/4's was questioned and answered. And if you reread it, pretty much everyone did say wear what you want except you - who said if you don't like bunkers lose some weight. Where did anyone attack you, paragod? Simply pointing out that it is obvious where your main interest lies is hardly getting attacked. It would be the same if you were a butcher for three different companies, called yourself meatgod, and came around spouting an opinion that fdny is too fat and if you don't like bunkers maybe you should drop some weight. Just because you dabble in firefighting does not give your opinions much weight with me personally.I don't even know what this is about.
    I'm glad we had this talk though. I will refrain from posting my opinion of your opinions in the future as you don't seem to be able to take any disagreement without being hurt or offended.

    What he said.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    What he said.

    FTM-PTB
    Now thats funny!

    Seriously Fred, I do not think Chicago and yourself are giving this guy enough credit. The amount of experience he could have gained at 25 years old while not working on the ambulance at one of three different departments in Iowa.........Think about it.
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    Every single fire department does things different from every other single fire department. What works at one sometimes will not work at another.

    The idea of the forums is to spread information not spread BS. Most of the information given is opinion, therefore it will be different and most likely not the answer you wanted.
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    Okay...Let me answer some questions posted to me I guess in this topic.

    Seems like you're baiting a hook for the very thread you claim to hate
    No, just merely stating an opinion. It is very clear to me that there are elements on these forums that take every question, every comment, every difference as opinion as a personal afront to either their FD or them personally.

    It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
    When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

    Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

    Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

    You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.
    There are topics that I won't even post on anymore because I know exactly where they will end up. Frankly there are ***** bags everywhere including most firehouses, most forums and in general in life that spout nonsense simply because they know no better or because they enjoy watching people **** themselves as they get wound up.

    As for people loving to criticize big city fire departments true perhaps, but it is no more prevalent on these boards than an element of the big city boys who are like sharks in bloody water when any volly FD screws up and it makes the news or the forums. So please realize that both sides are guilty of the same BS.

    As for the 3/4' boots and long coats issue...I couldn't begin to pretend to care what you wear in Chicago, or the FDNY or Boston or LA or anywhere else for that matter. Here in Wisconsin bunker pants are the law since the dpeartment of commerce adopted the NFPA PPE standards. It would certainly help the argument for them if the supporters had something more to offer than "we used them for years and they worked fine." WE could say the same thing for plenty of things in the fire service that we no longer do.

    FyredUp,

    I agree with you. There has been way too much BS on the forums in recent weeks so I have been occupying my time elsewhere. I hope it is just me being tired and it has not turned into the waste of time that it has felt like lately. To GET respect you have to GIVE respect from the probie to the chief. We are all in this together. We have enough MUTTS, CHOOLS, or whatever you want to call them trying to knock us down in this world. We don't need to help them out.

    It's sad to me that the only time we really band together is when tragedy strikes. Whether it is a big city or small town LODD, brothers will come out of the woodwork to show support. So why do we let ourselves get into such personal ****ing matches on these forums? To ask for total harmony would be unrealistic, but I think it's fair to ask people to THINK before they post.

    Years ago I used to fly off the handle on these boards over a certain departed member (LHS RIP) posts and vent my frustrations on here. I learned a lot from a certain big city LT (who will remain nameless) and since then I always type out my responses, read them for a while, and decide whether it's really going to matter the next day. I'd like to think that this method has helped me from looking like a complete jerk more than a few times.

    I leave you with this from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

    Main Entry: broth·er·hood
    Pronunciation: 'br&-[th]&r-"hud
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English brotherhede, brotherhod, alteration of brotherrede, from Old English brOthorr[AE]den, from brOthor + r[AE]den condition -- more at KINDRED
    1 : the quality or state of being brothers
    2 : FELLOWSHIP, ALLIANCE
    3 : an association (as a labor union or monastic society) for a particular purpose
    4 : the whole body of persons engaged in a business or profession
    It is sad isn't it? I like your idea and I have done that same thing myself on a few occasions and it too, since my adventures with being banned, has saved me a few times.

    One of the most bizarre things I have experienced over the years in the fire service is the beating the crap out of each other and then pulling together in times of need like long lost Brothers. I guess it is just our culture...

    This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

    Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.
    This behavior seems prevlent on many boards on the internet, It is so easy to anonymously attack and ridicule others OR to be baited into an argument over really stupid and trivial things. I am an avid woodworker and used to enjoy a couple of woodworking sites but they have for the most part been taken over by people who relish in creating mayhem by arguing over things like if you don't have a Unisaw you are a pussy as a woodworker. Ridiculous? Of course, but similar to many topics here if you think about it.

    . . . and the purpose of this thread?
    To allow people to add relavent comments on what I think has become a serious problem of late on the forums.

    I guess I could ask you in return. and the purpose of your comment?

    Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
    Harry Caray was a living God to be revered for all time. He was that generations shining example for all Cubs fans.

    You can have the leather, I want the steaks!!!

    I agree. Why are we "one family" in a time of tragedy?

    Seriously, sometimes the "big city" guys get a puffy chest because they are the big city guys. Sometimes the "vollies" or the "small town guys" or the "career" guys get puffy chested about stuff too.

    Listen, we all get a little puffy chested and big headed about stuff we feel strongly about sometimes. To be honest, the fire doesn't change, the way we put it out doesn't change, the danger doesn't change. This means that we are all equals when you get down to the meat of things( sorry bout the pun). There are always going to little squabbles and disagreements about stuff and there are always going to be people you just don't get along with. That's life. You are just going to agree to disagree and move on.

    When you take an attitude that is less than professional, or even dishonorable, that is the true disappointment. We have to remember, if we don't support ourselves, who will?

    Ok kids.........fight nice now.
    Beautiful...you said what I was trying to say.

    Every single fire department does things different from every other single fire department. What works at one sometimes will not work at another.

    The idea of the forums is to spread information not spread BS. Most of the information given is opinion, therefore it will be different and most likely not the answer you wanted.
    Another beautiful post.


    The rest of you who chose to drag another battle from elsewhere...what was the point in that? Go back there and fight about 3/4's and long coats. This was seperate and NO WHERE did I mention that topic at all in my original posting.

    Stay safe out there ALL of my BROTHERS and SISTERS...

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 10-29-2006 at 12:33 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
    I thought it was about fat chix
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

  22. #22
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    fat chickens ?????

  23. #23
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    Wow another person who is so experienced and full of themselves. I am impressed. I wish I could be that cool.

  24. #24
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    ******=================
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    =======================
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    ------GOD BLESS AMERICA ! ------

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    One of the most bizarre things I have experienced over the years in the fire service is the beating the crap out of each other and then pulling together in times of need like long lost Brothers. I guess it is just our culture...
    That behavior, I think, is part of being a family. I know my brother and I used to beat the snot out of eachother. I'm sure others can relate. But god help anyone outside the family touch one of us. We'd forget out differences and have eachother's backs, no matter what.

    Personally, I love these forums. Where else can you find such a diverse sampling of the US, and World, fire service? That is its strength, and weakness. Where else can a guy from a 1-fire-a-year department ask the guys who see 10-fires-a-shift how'd they handle a situation? Or an urban guy can ask the rural guy about tanker relays and strobe packages? My point is the flow of information, and opinions, is a good thing. Where things get horribly wrong is when opinions, egos, and anominity get thrown into the fire. We, as a rule, tend to be pretty pig-headed, grab the bull by the horns, type-A guys. We have to be to do what we do. But it also means that we don't back down easily when discussions start getting heated. You poke me in the eye, I'm going to poke you, and your mother, in the eye back. That's where we all need to be better at stepping away from the keyboard for a bit and think before posting. Calm down, go work out, catch a run or two or wash the Engine, then come back and decide if what's written will make a difference, or add anything to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    It would be the same if you were a butcher for three different companies, called yourself meatgod, and came around spouting ...
    LOL: MeatGod

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