1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Wow Nail that sure is some timely information you posted. Lets see, its been almost THREE years since the campaign for president began. You talk a good game but your facts are askew. The fact is that the IAFF FIREPAC gave money to 10 Democratic and 7 Republican candidates for congress here in Illinois. Sounds pretty Bi-Partisan to me. It must kill you that an IAFF member from your department won elected office in your city. Your post has nothing to do with this thread and I am not sure why you decided to post it here. You are not a member of the IAFF so what OUR leadership does really doesn't apply to you does it ? DUES PAYING MEMBERS have the right to complain about the IAFF. Not you.
    My post is pertinent to this thread in that the original post was about John Kerry and the IAFF spent millions supporting the bum.

    I'm very happy for Mike Martinez, I've never held any ill will towards him personally. I did not work to thwart his election. Like so many union leaders, they make better politicians than fire fighters. More power to him.

    The percentage of PAC funds the IAFF funnels to Democrats is over 75 percent. Odd that there are over 35% more registered Republicans in the IAFF than Democrats. I wish they'd stick to the legislation and get out of the national endorsement business. It will only serve to devide us.

    The facts are out there Miky. It's all public information.

    I'm not sure what you mean about the timing. I brought this up after the election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that you and other union leaders like yourself continue to support anti war candidates in the wake of the single most devistating attack ever launched on our soil by a foreign power. That attack led to 343 of our borther fire fighter's death. Instead of searching for a way to bolster the countries efforts to prosecute this war, which will surely take more of our brothers and sisters in the future, Harold Schaitberger uses 9-11 as leverage to push his potitical agenda of shifting power and responsibility of the union movment and the fire service to the federal government.
    So let me get this straight -- the head of the IAFF deserves to be criticized for politicizing 9/11, and for not properly prosecuting the war against Al Qaeda. Have you been paying attention to what's been going on for the past four years?! What the heck do you think Bush has been doing? He politicized 9/11 to launch this disaster in Iraq, which pulled resources from the battle that we really should've been focusing on -- Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. Bush, more than just about any president in history, has drastically expanded the power and size of the federal government.

    If you're going to criticize the IAFF head, fine. But I don't see you criticizing Bush, who is doing exactly what you're talking about on a much grander scale. I guess what that means is that if somebody that you don't like politicially does it, it's bad, but if it's Bush, it's okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    HaHaHa ..... you are absolutely right! You said they were used to make sarin!
    Wow. I bet I just made your day.

    Now explain to all of us why that is rationale enough to go to war risking the lives of hundreds of thousands of troops and spending billions of borrowed dollars.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneL1L
    So let me get this straight -- the head of the IAFF deserves to be criticized for politicizing 9/11, and for not properly prosecuting the war against Al Qaeda. Have you been paying attention to what's been going on for the past four years?! What the heck do you think Bush has been doing? He politicized 9/11 to launch this disaster in Iraq, which pulled resources from the battle that we really should've been focusing on -- Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. Bush, more than just about any president in history, has drastically expanded the power and size of the federal government.

    If you're going to criticize the IAFF head, fine. But I don't see you criticizing Bush, who is doing exactly what you're talking about on a much grander scale. I guess what that means is that if somebody that you don't like politicially does it, it's bad, but if it's Bush, it's okay.
    I have issues with Bush and the prosecution of the war.

    My point is Harold is paid to represent the membership. If you follow his work closely it's obvious what his strategy and intent is.

    I've go no gripe with those opposing the President. I have a gripe with the IAFF scamming money from the members to fund politics that much of the membership does not support and in all actuallity is hardly aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    I never said any such thing. You did.

    Well, my post was in response to your post, which I reposted below. In that Post you clearly state that castor beans are the primary ingredient of Sarin gas, which it is not. I was merely pointing out that castor beans are used to make Ricin, a deadly agent in itís own right, since there is no antidote for it once in the body, and it is fatal if ingested.
    And yes, you could make Ricin at home. I wasnít deflecting anything, just responding to your post, which I interpreted as you implying that Ricin, or Sarin gas as not being dangerous entities. No more, no less.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Considering the primary ingredient in Sarin gas is castor beans I guess I have the ability to make WMD's as well.

    Nice try at sounding ominous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Wow. I bet I just made your day.
    You did. I owe you one.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that Harold Schaitberger earned $500,000 in dues money, earmarked for his salary, working as John Kerry's cochair campaign manager for two years.
    Part of the IAFF charter is to support candidates who will best support firefighter issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that Harold spent over $500,000 in dues money from his IAFF expense account traveling the country bashing bush while the majority of firefighters supported the President.
    I guess where you're from that's a lot of money. For those of us who recognize an individual to have the responsibility and oversight of Harold's it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that he stated he supported Kerry because of fire fighter issues when the real fact is Harold had his sights on a Secretary of Labor appointment.
    Tin Foil hat time. Do you have proof of this? Or that Kerry was even remotely thinking of appointing Harold as DOL? And even if he were (which I doubt since I don't think Harold has the academic horsepower for a cabinet level position) why would that have been a bad thing for firefighters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that he stated he was making his decision on fire fighter issues when the truth is Harold makes his decission on Big Labor issues. Kerry promised the AFL CIO He would work to fight against codification of the Supreme Court Beck decision, which would effectively bring us back to the days of forced unionism. He stated he'd fight any paycheck protection legislation that would allow the unions to continue to funnel hundreds of millions of Republican's dollars each election cycle into individual Democratic campaigns.
    Good thing. Paycheck protection is a fraud designed to only affect one group and their influence. When I see the issue applied to all PACs I might consider supporting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Maybe it's the fact that you and other union leaders like yourself continue to support anti war candidates in the wake of the single most devistating attack ever launched on our soil by a foreign power. That attack led to 343 of our borther fire fighter's death. Instead of searching for a way to bolster the countries efforts to prosecute this war, which will surely take more of our brothers and sisters in the future, Harold Schaitberger uses 9-11 as leverage to push his potitical agenda of shifting power and responsibility of the union movment and the fire service to the federal government.
    Aaahhh. You give me too much credit. Our union board is made up of people far more capable than I. Your argument is based upon a hypothetical of what might happen if certain folks get elected. Hence it has no merit. Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Point is, everyone knows you and I are political opposites, but I don't condone the folks who are supposed to be representing us endorsing and shifting dues money for politically partisan activities, you apparently do.
    Considering that we have politicians who hold sway over our futures you are absolutely correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Point being Harold can work as a political activist for the Democratic Party. He shouldn't do it with conservative and Republican fire fighter's dues money.
    Nothing stopping you from dropping out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Harold was just introduced on Hardball with Chris Mathews as President of the all powerful fire fighter's union, traveling the country stumping for Democrats. Harold brags polical activism being his number one priority.
    Good. Because that is what policy makers and elected officials understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Cochair campaign manager for John Kerry
    Speaker and member of Democratic Leadership Committee (Not just invited!)
    Sergeant at Arms Democratic Primaries in 03
    Board member of the liberal activist PAC Voices for Working Families
    In 03 was appointed by Sweeney to lead the AFL CIO Political Strategy Wing
    The AFL is slightly partisan funneling 98% of it's funds into liberal union activist activity and the Democratic Party. Before the split that was approximately 10 to 20 million per month.
    Could it be because the GOP and its business interests are on a jihad against organized labor. Hmmm. When someone throws a right hook at you, do you lean into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Harold gave an entire speech educating the DLC on how to manipulate conservatives to vote Democrat, NOT how to represent his members. He did this while supporting Kerry. That might possibly make this slightly pertinant to the original post.

    It's Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Hope that makes a little sense to you SCFire. Always good talking with you friend.
    Again what's your point? Are there conservative operatives out there who discuss how to manipulate moderate liberals to vote GOP? I hope you aren't naive enough to believe there aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    PS Hook'em Horns!!!
    Could you explain why UT wears a thong on the side of their helmets? And btw. USC has a very real chance of going back to the BCS this year. UT on the other hand....doesn't.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-25-2006 at 03:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    I've go no gripe with those opposing the President. I have a gripe with the IAFF scamming money from the members to fund politics that much of the membership does not support and in all actuallity is hardly aware of.
    Clearly you are ignorant of the fact that FIREPAC is voluntary. But keep the laughs coming.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    You did. I owe you one.
    Good. I'll send your responses along to couple of folks I know that are in Iraq risking life and limb. I'm sure they'll get a chuckle out of your comments as well.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Good. I'll send your responses along to couple of folks I know that are in Iraq risking life and limb. I'm sure they'll get a chuckle out of your comments as well.
    No need. I discuss it live and in person with all my military friends on a regular basis. Thanks anyway though.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Clearly you are ignorant of the fact that FIREPAC is voluntary. But keep the laughs coming.
    Clearly you are not reading my posts carefully.

    I'm not speaking about FIREPAC. You're a smart guy. Try reading the post again.

    Dues money paid Harolds paycheck for two years while he proffesed to make his prime objective as campaigning for Kerry. His paycheck is over $240,000 per year. He has a $300,000 plus expense account he uses to fund his flights criss crossing the country stumping and attending rallies with his Democratic friends.

    The millions in unlimited funds being funneled into Educational 527 AFL CIO umbrella PAC funds contains dues money. I'm not sure if you understand the difference in the PAC funds. If you need help I'll post some links so you can be more informed and educated.

    It's dues money that is being funneled from around the country to AFL CIO full time paid political activists setting up, organizing, and staffing phone centers working to get out the vote in swing states.

    Either you're ignorant or you're perpetrating the union one liner lie!

    It's estimated that over 200 million of union money was spent on the Kerry campaign. Much, if not most, of that money was dues money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Part of the IAFF charter is to support candidates who will best support firefighter issues.


    I guess where you're from that's a lot of money. For those of us who recognize an individual to have the responsibility and oversight of Harold's it isn't.
    I guess you're admitting that the IAFF uses dues money for politics. This is only one of many examples.


    Tin Foil hat time. Do you have proof of this? Or that Kerry was even remotely thinking of appointing Harold as DOL? And even if he were (which I doubt since I don't think Harold has the academic horsepower for a cabinet level position) why would that have been a bad thing for firefighters?
    This is one of many references from the 04 campaign to this. Sweeney is quoted as making references. Kerry is also quoted as making references. If you're interested I'm sure you can dig them up. Here is one example.

    http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001248.html

    Labor Secretary -- Kerry says his secretary will come from organized labor's ranks, but observers don't believe he has Gerald McEntee, president of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, or Andrew Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, in mind. Both outspokenly backed Howard Dean before the Iowa caucuses.

    But other candidates fit the bill. One possible choice is Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass. Lynch headed an ironworkers local before being elected to Congress. Another strong candidate is Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. The firefighters endorsed Kerry early and loudly, and Schaitberger has an impressive resume. Democrats as prominent as Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle have taken to lightheartedly calling Schaitberger "Mr. Secretary," at party meetings.




    Good thing. Paycheck protection is a fraud designed to only affect one group and their influence. When I see the issue applied to all PACs I might consider supporting it.
    That's garbage. You and your buds are scamming money for your own political interests at the expense of the members. You're taking advantage of them. The only thing wrong with Arnolds push was that he included PAC funds. That was bull, but the essence of the legislation is good. The union bosses and their followers somehow justify using dues money for politics. It's wrong. It appears you admitted to the use of due for political purposes in your first paragraph.

    Could it be because the GOP and its business interests are on a jihad against organized labor. Hmmm. When someone throws a right hook at you, do you lean into it?
    I'd say the jihad is more from labor against business. You guys are the ones pushing the envelope. Suppose you forgot, business is what supports the local economy, which is the largest factor influencing your working conditions and pay.

    I know the union bosses would like to shift that responsibility to the federal government, but it won't likely happen in the U.S. Maybe you should consider moving to Britian, take a pay cut, and have fun going on strike with your brothers over there. You'd be in a virtual union utopia, National Fire Service and a federally based union that gets to call the shots for the entire fire service.

    Again what's your point? Are there conservative operatives out there who discuss how to manipulate moderate liberals to vote GOP? I hope you aren't naive enough to believe there aren't.
    Sure there are conservative ops. Difference is they aren't set up as non profit corps who are mandated by law to work as a representative democracy. Harold is charged with representing the members and love to claim that he does. Conservatives aren't collecting dues from democrats to fund their politics. Democrats aren't being pressured to fund those conservative operatives to access the basic rights that are touted by the union but turn into privilages as soon as they are won. Union officers are paid to represent their members. Locally union leaders do a great job at the local level, in general. True political representation at the national level is near non existent, it's a good ol boy system, and worse yet it's a scam.


    [QUOTE/]Could you explain why UT wears a thong on the side of their helmets? And btw. USC has a very real chance of going back to the BCS this year. UT on the other hand....doesn't.[/QUOTE]

    You aren't still sore about loosing. Seems to me you were the one bragging about your team before they got canned by who!!!!!!!!

    Do your homework buddy. No foil here.
    Last edited by Nail200; 11-25-2006 at 08:44 PM.

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    Nail. I fail to see why you are so outraged at anything the IAFF does. You are not a member. Your opinion on the IAFF or the way it spends its money really isn't yours to be concerned about. I bet you sure enjoy the benefits the union has worked hard for you in Austin though. I think you should have to negotiate your own wages and benefits instead of riding the backs of DUES PAYING MEMBERS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Nail. I fail to see why you are so outraged at anything the IAFF does. You are not a member. Your opinion on the IAFF or the way it spends its money really isn't yours to be concerned about. I bet you sure enjoy the benefits the union has worked hard for you in Austin though. I think you should have to negotiate your own wages and benefits instead of riding the backs of DUES PAYING MEMBERS.
    Mikey,

    When someone decides to stand up and out Harold like he deserves, it's not a good idea to maintain your membership. If you'd like we can start talking about real life examples of the IAFF threatening to legally go after non conformists in the union. I'd be happy to go down that road if you wish.

    Anyway Mikey, I think I've got more time in the IAFF than you've been a fire fighter.

    Nice try. The folks I work with understand what I'm doing and they are supportive. They understand I'm just protecting myself from prosecution by the IAFF. They throw my political freedom out the window, I throw the oath out the window.

    ACCOUNTABILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I'll be back in the IAFF when two things happen which will restore accountability where there is none.

    All Rank and File fire fighters are able to vote for the IAFF President.

    When there is a federal statute that no fire fighter can be mandated to affiliate outside their local in order to access their basic labor rights.
    Last edited by Nail200; 11-25-2006 at 09:27 PM.

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    Unions supporting political candidates has been going on since the formation of the big three; AFL-CIO, UAW and Teamsters.
    It was not uncommon for our union leadership to tell us who to support. We elected our union leadership and by proxy, allowed them to cast our vote for support of certain political candidates.
    In many states now, PAC money is limited, but not the amount of time the unions can spend on getting the vote out for a candidate.
    Liebermann creditted the IAFF with helping him win. Nothing wrong with that.
    CR
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Nail. I fail to see why you are so outraged at anything the IAFF does. You are not a member. Your opinion on the IAFF or the way it spends its money really isn't yours to be concerned about. I bet you sure enjoy the benefits the union has worked hard for you in Austin though. I think you should have to negotiate your own wages and benefits instead of riding the backs of DUES PAYING MEMBERS.
    I'll give you a reason all conservative fire fighters, volunteer and career should be outraged.

    Harold Schaitberger declares to politicians and the American public that he represents 80% of the American fire service. Harold seems to have forgotten about the million or so volunteer fire fighters who serve this country, or don't they qualify as fire fighters in his book?

    Harold is truely charged with representing only about 20% of America's fire fighters.

    Of the IAFF fire fighters 44% are stated to declare themselves Republican.
    That gets you down to approximately 12% of the entire fire service.

    Of the 27% of the IAFF members that are Independent, figure half are conservative in nature. That puts Harold representing the Democratic Presidential hopefuls of a whopping 9% of America's Fire Fighters.

    He may have a load of fire fighter money to work with along with a left wing union political activist army, but he in no way can honestly claim to represent but a fraction of the political will of the American Fire Service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    I'll give you a reason all conservative fire fighters, volunteer and career should be outraged.....
    I'm a Republican and I'm not outraged.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Unions supporting political candidates has been going on since the formation of the big three; AFL-CIO, UAW and Teamsters.
    It was not uncommon for our union leadership to tell us who to support. We elected our union leadership and by proxy, allowed them to cast our vote for support of certain political candidates.
    In many states now, PAC money is limited, but not the amount of time the unions can spend on getting the vote out for a candidate.
    Liebermann creditted the IAFF with helping him win. Nothing wrong with that.
    CR
    Chief,

    I agree for the most part. The supreme court BECK decision was heard over this specific area of concern. The supreme court found that the union had no right to force a worker to be in a union as a condition of employment and then funnel their dues money into politics. This was the foundation of this case.

    This was a hard fought win which took 12 years and culminated in 1988. The Clinton administration is shown to have ordered mandated BECK postings torn down. There is an active effort of collaboration between the democratic party and the union leadership. There was verbal confirmation from Kerry about his will to not codify and to fight BECK.

    You hit on one of the primary problems. Most local leadership does not actively work in an objective way to educate their members on the issues, and the political agendas being voted on at national conventions. Hence, members really aren't being represented.

    The other issue is that the IAFF isn't just endorsing candidates. The union leadership is actively working for national campaigns. It seems fair to ask that Texas fire fighter's money stay in Texas instead of funneling it into swing states to push for IAFF candidates. The IAFF leadership is sheltered from accountability from their decision even though they may be in direct contradiction of the will of the majority of members.

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    I could argue point after point...But what's the point ? Nail your opinions are exactly what they are. Opinions. I am the President of an extremely small local. For you to say that I fail to educate my membership on what goes on at the national level is just plain wrong. I went on my own time and my own money to meet with other Midwest IAFF local officers at the 8th District caucas in Indianapolis. President Schaitberger gave a very candid talk and answered each question posed to him. Including one asked by me. I was satisfied with the answers given and reported back to the membership. We then as a group went over some of the major issues that our delegate would be voting on at our international convention. Things that in some cases would effect our wallets and some that were more symbolic. For you to sit back and take potshots at things you think you know about is almost comical if it wasn't so insulting. You feel like you aren't being represented because YOU ARE NOT AN IAFF MEMBER. Quit insulting our intelligence. We do not need non-members explaining why we are doing things so poorly. Our mebership voted UNANIMOUSLY to pay into our State PAC. We also have very good participation in FIREPAC which we all know by now comes from individual members donations.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    I'm going to close with this:

    There is no doubt that the union movement at all levels has done and continues to do good things for the fire service. There is legislation that most all of us can agree is good for the fire service. Saying that, there is also legislatioin that centers around labor issues such as forced unionism which doesn't sit well with much if not most of the membership who follow the process.

    Just like politics it's all local. The union sells itself on the local level. It's a natural win. Firefighters by their very nature are willing to be there for their brothers and sisters in their time of need, open their wallets, and we have a natural vested interest in creating a safer more efficient working environment. We have a common antagonist being our city governrnements.
    It's a natural for union building.

    Liberals tend to gravitate to union leadership positions. These folks are filtered threw the system as they work their way up the ladder and into state and national union leadership positions. Most of the top union leadership has very different political views that the bulk of the members.

    These union leaders are working as political activists for the Democratic Party. They use the stature fire fighters hold in the community and the nation to push candidates of their choice. Most fire fighters are not comfortable with hero status and we're not interested in pushing our politics on our brothers and sisters. We are on dangerous ground. We have an IAFF president who's willing to disreguard the political will of the membership to push his own agenda. He has no problem standing on our shoulders to push his politicians while leveraging our honor, our stature, and our reputation. The 04 campaign was a prime example. It would be better for everybody fif the IAFF would get out of the business of endorsing in the presidential campaigns. I'm sure that's wishful thinking. I suppose we'll be duking it out over Hillary and Guiliani this go around or something to that effect. No doubt which side the IAFF will be on.

    Mikey, most of what I posted are facts not opinion. I'll be happy to post links to back up the information. Most of it comes from the IAFF, AFL CIO, news organizations, and public records.

    Maintaining our political freedom is one of the very foundations of our system. If the IAFF doesn't respect that, they will continue to encounter growing resistance from the rank and file and those fire fighters they don't represent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    I guess you're admitting that the IAFF uses dues money for politics. This is only one of many examples.
    Which is part of Harold's job. You're seem to want to believe there is impropriety where there is none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    This is one of many references from the 04 campaign to this. Sweeney is quoted as making references. Kerry is also quoted as making references. If you're interested I'm sure you can dig them up. Here is one example.

    http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001248.html

    Labor Secretary -- Kerry says his secretary will come from organized labor's ranks, but observers don't believe he has Gerald McEntee, president of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, or Andrew Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, in mind. Both outspokenly backed Howard Dean before the Iowa caucuses.

    But other candidates fit the bill. One possible choice is Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass. Lynch headed an ironworkers local before being elected to Congress. Another strong candidate is Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. The firefighters endorsed Kerry early and loudly, and Schaitberger has an impressive resume. Democrats as prominent as Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle have taken to lightheartedly calling Schaitberger "Mr. Secretary," at party meetings.
    A(singular) newspaper story is not proof of anything that Harold was a lock for DOL. And you still haven't answered how Harold's being appointed DOL would be a bad thing for firefighters. If you can tell us why, you might, and it is a very small might, have a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    That's garbage. You and your buds are scamming money for your own political interests at the expense of the members. You're taking advantage of them. The only thing wrong with Arnolds push was that he included PAC funds. That was bull, but the essence of the legislation is good. The union bosses and their followers somehow justify using dues money for politics. It's wrong. It appears you admitted to the use of due for political purposes in your first paragraph.
    What do you mean, your buds? I belong to my local voluntarily. There are individuals who are firefighters in OC who are not members. And no one cares. No one is shunned or harassed. I know this for a fact since I speak to two of them all the time. The other four work on the opposite side of the county so I can't tell you. Out of 750 members, only six are not members. That is more of a testamant to the leadership of our union. No one is scamming anything since by CA law membership in the PAC is VOLUNTARY apart from being a member of the local.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    I'd say the jihad is more from labor against business. You guys are the ones pushing the envelope. Suppose you forgot, business is what supports the local economy, which is the largest factor influencing your working conditions and pay.
    Clearly you are unaware of the actions of business prior to the advent of organized labor. The healthy dynamic is what keeps business in place and the working class productive and out of the gutter as it was prior to the Industrial Revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    I know the union bosses would like to shift that responsibility to the federal government, but it won't likely happen in the U.S. Maybe you should consider moving to Britian, take a pay cut, and have fun going on strike with your brothers over there. You'd be in a virtual union utopia, National Fire Service and a federally based union that gets to call the shots for the entire fire service.
    Aaaahhh yes. The 'Love it or Leave it' argument. Now that you've dissolved into faux patriotism and the adjoining platitudes it is clear you are imploding in your animosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Sure there are conservative ops. Difference is they aren't set up as non profit corps who are mandated by law to work as a representative democracy. Harold is charged with representing the members and love to claim that he does. Conservatives aren't collecting dues from democrats to fund their politics. Democrats aren't being pressured to fund those conservative operatives to access the basic rights that are touted by the union but turn into privilages as soon as they are won. Union officers are paid to represent their members. Locally union leaders do a great job at the local level, in general. True political representation at the national level is near non existent, it's a good ol boy system, and worse yet it's a scam.
    According to you. I feel well represented at the national level. I can't speak for you. But I've never been pressured to join the union or its PAC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    You aren't still sore about loosing. Seems to me you were the one bragging about your team before they got canned by who!!!!!!!!
    Ancient history pal. After USC's thumping of ND yesterday there is a real possibility of a return to the BCS. And remember, USC lost 11 starters to the NFL. That means they weren't just good players, they were GREAT players. So if OSU wins, they beat USC during a rebuilding year. Live in the past. It's what you do best. And please point me to a post where I was bragging about MY team. The only time I've ever been remotely involved with USC is when I drove past the campus several years back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200
    Do your homework buddy. No foil here.
    Since you're from Texas it's more like grassy knoll time.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-26-2006 at 12:45 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  22. #272
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    Maintaining our political freedom is one of the very foundations of our system. If the IAFF doesn't respect that, they will continue to encounter growing resistance from the rank and file and those fire fighters they don't represent.
    Here's what I suspect will happen:
    If Schaitberger is ignoring the will of the membership-and let's be honest here; Schaitberger has sealed the deal for after his term is up-then the ONLY way change at the national level can occur is if the locals elect more moderate and conservative local leaderships. That in itself doesn't guarantee that the national president won't have an opinion or two, but conservatives tend to stick with the majority. (MIKEY: I am in no way implying that this is what it is in the IAFF; I am speaking in general, political terms)
    In my opinion, Schaitberger hasn't forgotten the locals that elevated him to national attention, but he seems to enjoy his face time with America and as I alluded to earlier, Schaitberger already has his plan for when he leaves office.
    Few can resist the trappings of celebrity. Once you reach a certain plateau in politics, you fool yourself into believing that the sky is the limit.
    CR
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  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Here's what I suspect will happen:
    If Schaitberger is ignoring the will of the membership-and let's be honest here; Schaitberger has sealed the deal for after his term is up-then the ONLY way change at the national level can occur is if the locals elect more moderate and conservative local leaderships. That in itself doesn't guarantee that the national president won't have an opinion or two, but conservatives tend to stick with the majority. (MIKEY: I am in no way implying that this is what it is in the IAFF; I am speaking in general, political terms)
    In my opinion, Schaitberger hasn't forgotten the locals that elevated him to national attention, but he seems to enjoy his face time with America and as I alluded to earlier, Schaitberger already has his plan for when he leaves office.
    Few can resist the trappings of celebrity. Once you reach a certain plateau in politics, you fool yourself into believing that the sky is the limit.
    CR
    Since I don't know Harold or ever met him I won't speculate on his motivation or personal ambition. I for one see nothing wrong with ambition. It is the single force which has built our nation.

    I will agree with your last statement on celebrity.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Nail it most REALLY kill you that an IAFF supported candidate for Governor of Texas won.... Rick Perry, a REPUBLICAN... Or maybe you are a Kinky Friedman supporter?
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Nail it most REALLY kill you that an IAFF supported candidate for Governor of Texas won.... Rick Perry, a REPUBLICAN... Or maybe you are a Kinky Friedman supporter?
    Mikey,
    I was going to leave it at that, but I was thinking about things while building today.

    I'm sure you are a good intentioned, honest, and a generous leader of your local. I've said it before that I have a tremendous amount of respect of local union leaders. I think this is where the vast majority of positive union work is done. While these conversations get personal sometimes, I don't hold any ill will. We have some good and needed debates. I respect people with strong political opinions even if I don't agree with them. It mean they are interested and they care. It's a shame, but there are a lot of folks out there who just don't care and aren't interested.

    I don't hate unions. I know that many firefighters and especially union leaders take my attacks on the IAFF in a personal way. These problems are real and they do exist. They are the reason I made the very difficult choice to leave the union. I will continue to put the facts out there about the political activity of the national leadership. Most firefighters, and for that matter union leaders are unaware of much of the political activities of the union at the national and international level. My political freedom is non negotiable and it can't be purchsed with money or deeds. As long as the IAFF continues it's current practices, I'll stay a non member.

    As for Rick Perry, I supported and worked for his campaign on a personal level. With my views about governement and its relationship to fire fighting, I think the state and local level legislation is much more appropriate as it relates to our jobs. I would much prefer the union get out of the business of endorsing at the state and national level. I know that in today's world endorsements are the norm, but I feel it's a disservice to the members no matter who is endorsed.

    Best of luck to you and your local,

    Happy holidays

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