1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200 View Post
    It's firefighters like this that put the union above other firefighter's basic constitutional rights.
    Not at all. You are free to do what you want, but if you come to work in our house - or any other good union house - you should just be prepared for a long, lonely career of silence, isolation, and disdain. Like I said, no one wants to work with - or completely trusts - a scab who wants to ride along for free on the backs and efforts of better men. Why would you be upset at everyone else enjoying their constitutional right of freedom of (or lack of) association?


    Jack London “The Scab”

    After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad and the vampire, he had some awful stuff left with which he made a SCAB.

    A SCAB is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

    When a SCAB comes down the street men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep hime out. No man has a right to SCAB as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared to a SCAB. For betraying his master he had the character to hang himself. A SCAB hasn't.

    Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strike breaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children and his fellow-men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.

    Esau was a traitor to himself, Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his Lord, Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country.

    A STRIKE BREAKER IS A TRAITOR TO HIS GOD, HIS COUNTRY, HIS FAMILY

    AND THE WORKING CLASS

    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post

    Jack London “The Scab”
    Well done ChicagoFF. But I think you're assuming way too much literacy from the likes of Nails and his ilk.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Not at all. You are free to do what you want, but if you come to work in our house - or any other good union house - you should just be prepared for a long, lonely career of silence, isolation, and disdain. Like I said, no one wants to work with - or completely trusts - a scab who wants to ride along for free on the backs and efforts of better men. Why would you be upset at everyone else enjoying their constitutional right of freedom of (or lack of) association?


    Jack London “The Scab”

    After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad and the vampire, he had some awful stuff left with which he made a SCAB.

    A SCAB is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

    When a SCAB comes down the street men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep hime out. No man has a right to SCAB as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared to a SCAB. For betraying his master he had the character to hang himself. A SCAB hasn't.

    Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strike breaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children and his fellow-men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.

    Esau was a traitor to himself, Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his Lord, Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country.

    A STRIKE BREAKER IS A TRAITOR TO HIS GOD, HIS COUNTRY, HIS FAMILY

    AND THE WORKING CLASS


    The union movement is supposedly a representative democracy. This is how union corporations are set up in order to qualify for non profit status.

    Imagine the American political system set up like the union:
    Common people would not get to vote for state and federal leadership positions

    The leadership of the country would not be accountable to the common people.

    There would be no Bill of Rights protecting the basic and fundamental rights of the common people.

    The union movement is a political entity.
    The union movement affiliates at the local, state, national, and international level are all political entities to varying degrees. In some countries these affiliates would be closely tied to what is termed the Labor Party. In the US that would be similar to the Democrats. If the union had their way, they would force you to pay full dues as a condition of employment. They would continue to fund partisan politics with that money. What is American and free about being forced to fund a political party as a condition of employment? It appears to me that this is the foundation of the findings of the Supreme Court which led them to vote against the unions in their efforts to have closed shops and forced full dues.

    Corporations:
    A word about corporations, business owners, and the rich. I am all for strong laws in order to hold the corporate elites accountable for not abusing the system. I think it should also be noted that these liberal firefighters who are attacking the corporate world are also attacking the institutions which facilitate the bulk of the funding which provides for their jobs. Corporations, businesses, and the "rich" provide the vast bulk of the tax dollars used to fund our equipment, pay, and benefits.

    Just for the sake of argument:

    If tomorrow you, as a big city firefighter, had to choose to do away with either the union or all major corporations, what would have the biggest impact on your pay, benefits, and the security of your job?

    Kentucky Firefighters and lawsuit against their local:

    Many of the rank and file have very strong political convictions which conflict with the union.

    Given the above circumstances, many firefighters like me choose to exercise our "right" to leave the union rather than be forced to fund the Democratic Party. If given the choice, most of us would pay dues and maintain our local membership if not forced to fund these other affiliates.

    In the Kentucky case, it appears that these firefighters were not members of the local because of political reasons. They did not want their money going to the Democratic Party. This is the exact reason the Supreme Court ruled that a local is mandated to open its financial records and have an independent audit to determine the cost of collective bargaining. It's unfortunate that the union doesn't police itself in an attempt to protect and provide for the political freedom of its members. The union has forced members to file suit to protect themselves. The Supreme Court found forced dues unconstitutional. It appears that some on this board are unhappy with American firefighters who are simply standing up for their constitutional rights.
    Last edited by Nail200; 12-20-2006 at 05:04 AM.

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Not at all. You are free to do what you want, but if you come to work in our house - or any other good union house - you should just be prepared for a long, lonely career of silence, isolation, and disdain. Like I said, no one wants to work with - or completely trusts - a scab who wants to ride along for free on the backs and efforts of better men. Why would you be upset at everyone else enjoying their constitutional right of freedom of (or lack of) association?


    Jack London “The Scab”

    After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad and the vampire, he had some awful stuff left with which he made a SCAB.

    A SCAB is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

    When a SCAB comes down the street men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep hime out. No man has a right to SCAB as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared to a SCAB. For betraying his master he had the character to hang himself. A SCAB hasn't.

    Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strike breaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children and his fellow-men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.

    Esau was a traitor to himself, Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his Lord, Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country.

    A STRIKE BREAKER IS A TRAITOR TO HIS GOD, HIS COUNTRY, HIS FAMILY

    AND THE WORKING CLASS

    I prefer the quotes of Thomas Jefferson:

    "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

    "An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry."

    "An enemy generally says and believes what he wishes"

    "Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you."

    Ben Franklin
    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


    Chicago,

    I still don't think you understand the meaning of your trailer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200 View Post
    I prefer the quotes of Thomas Jefferson:

    "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
    The present Administration is neither wise nor frugal. Under the guise of going after those who perpetrated 9/11, they have gotten us involved in a quagmire in Iraq. Bush 41 had the common sense to stop Desert Strom when the Iraqis were driven from Kuwait. Too bad that gene did not decesnd through the bloodline. The defecits they have created will be paid by the next two or three generations.

    Not takiing bread from the mouth of labor? How about the people who lost their pensions and investements is companies like Enron, the Tyco scandal, etc. The present administartion has done nothing to stop Corporate America from jobs from exporting jobs offshore, puuting Americans out of work.

    On the local level, there are politicians and bureaucrats who would like nothing better than to privatize fire protection services to the lowest bidder.
    These companies bring in their own people with nothing more than a map book and absolutely no committment to the community while putting firefighters who have spent years working for their community out on the street. There are politicians and bureaucrats who take money from private ambulance companies, for which in turn they advocate taking EMS out of the fire department. Some of the larger private EMS conglomerates have even gone so far as putting together powerpoint demonstrations showing City and town councils showing how much money they can save the taxpayer by laying off firefighters "who won't be needed anymore if you hire us to run your ambulance for you".

    "An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry."
    This is true..it never will. Nail, even in the Labor movement, from the local level to the national level, there is dissent. As far as backing a candidate, the IAFF has baked both Republicans and Democrats and even a few Independents. It doesn't really matter if a labor organization backs a partiuclar candiate, because you as anindividual have the right to support who you want, contribute to who you want, put a sign on your lawn or bumper sticker on your car with who you want. Contrary to your bekief, Nail, the Big Brother of Labor isn't looking over your shoulder in the voting booth.

    What if the leaders of your faith backed a candidate you didn't like? Would you abandon your faith?

    "An enemy generally says and believes what he wishes"
    Both parties do this, ignoring us who consider themse,ves to be moderates.

    "Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you."
    Well, let's look at this in context. Corporate America decides that they can make more money by sending high tech jobs to India and give their loyal employees the boot out the door, putting their lives in turmoil. That makes them greedy bastards.

    A sitting President, Vice President and his Secretary of Defense ignore the advice of the Pentagon and decide to execute a wartimne operation their way, making statements like "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had" and others. That makes them stupid bastards.

    A Mayor of a city or town has a vendetta agaiinst City employees. Consideres them overpaid, underworked and refuses to negotiate any sort of salary increase while telling the cicitizens of the community that he's doing a good job in keeping taxes down. Meanwhile, the morale of the employees is in the s***er, the infrastructure is crumbling, but he feels that making people think with their wallets ionstead of their heads will keep him/her in his high paying job for another 2 to 4 years. That makes them MUTTS.

    [Ben Franklin
    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    Old Benjy would be agahst at the way the present Administration has trampled over the Constituiton. He would probably call it treasonous.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-20-2006 at 08:16 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200 View Post
    Ben Franklin
    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    How interesting. Yet you approve of constitutional violations of liberty via the bypassing of requiring warrants for eavesdropping. I'm no mental health professional, but you are displaying the classic symptoms of schizophrenia.

    Since you're quoting wise sayings, here's one for you from a GOP icon:

    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Abraham Lincoln - First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.
    I can find many others. How far do you want to take this?
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-20-2006 at 06:53 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    The present Administration is neither wise nor frugal. Under the guise of going after those who perpetrated 9/11, they have gotten us involved in a quagmire in Iraq. Bush 41 had the common sense to stop Desert Strom when the Iraqis were driven from Kuwait. Too bad that gene did not decesnd through the bloodline. The defecits they have created will be paid by the next two or three generations.

    Not takiing bread from the mouth of labor? How about the people who lost their pensions and investements is companies like Enron, the Tyco scandal, etc. The present administartion has done nothing to stop Corporate America from jobs from exporting jobs offshore, puuting Americans out of work.

    On the local level, there are politicians and bureaucrats who would like nothing better than to privatize fire protection services to the lowest bidder.
    These companies bring in their own people with nothing more than a map book and absolutely no committment to the community while putting firefighters who have spent years working for their community out on the street. There are politicians and bureaucrats who take money from private ambulance companies, for which in turn they advocate taking EMS out of the fire department. Some of the larger private EMS conglomerates have even gone so far as putting together powerpoint demonstrations showing City and town councils showing how much money they can save the taxpayer by laying off firefighters "who won't be needed anymore if you hire us to run your ambulance for you".



    This is true..it never will. Nail, even in the Labor movement, from the local level to the national level, there is dissent. As far as backing a candidate, the IAFF has baked both Republicans and Democrats and even a few Independents. It doesn't really matter if a labor organization backs a partiuclar candiate, because you as anindividual have the right to support who you want, contribute to who you want, put a sign on your lawn or bumper sticker on your car with who you want. Contrary to your bekief, Nail, the Big Brother of Labor isn't looking over your shoulder in the voting booth.

    What if the leaders of your faith backed a candidate you didn't like? Would you abandon your faith?



    Both parties do this, ignoring us who consider themse,ves to be moderates.



    Well, let's look at this in context. Corporate America decides that they can make more money by sending high tech jobs to India and give their loyal employees the boot out the door, putting their lives in turmoil. That makes them greedy bastards.

    A sitting President, Vice President and his Secretary of Defense ignore the advice of the Pentagon and decide to execute a wartimne operation their way, making statements like "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had" and others. That makes them stupid bastards.

    A Mayor of a city or town has a vendetta agaiinst City employees. Consideres them overpaid, underworked and refuses to negotiate any sort of salary increase while telling the cicitizens of the community that he's doing a good job in keeping taxes down. Meanwhile, the morale of the employees is in the s***er, the infrastructure is crumbling, but he feels that making people think with their wallets ionstead of their heads will keep him/her in his high paying job for another 2 to 4 years. That makes them MUTTS.



    Old Benjy would be agahst at the way the present Administration has trampled over the Constituiton. He would probably call it treasonous.
    Well said Gonz. While I admire the sanctity of liberty in the individual I also believe in an old military adage that states:

    "Providence is always on the side of the big battalions."

    Says it all.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    I apologize for the spelling errors.. I typed it in a hurry.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I apologize for the spelling errors.. I typed it in a hurry.
    Gonz. I think your comments were understood (despite the typos) that Nails ran and hasn't been heard from since.

    His arguments were specious at best. And obvious to anyone that he is one of those who is looking for some reason to not be a member. I'm thinking it is because he is just cheap. His anti union rhetoric about political support is a facade. And everyone knows it.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Gonz. I think your comments were understood (despite the typos) that Nails ran and hasn't been heard from since.

    His arguments were specious at best. And obvious to anyone that he is one of those who is looking for some reason to not be a member. I'm thinking it is because he is just cheap. His anti union rhetoric about political support is a facade. And everyone knows it.

    Not much for running SC, just thought I'd give it a break until after Christmas. I'll leave you with this until after the holidays.

    This is not about conservatism or socialism, it's about political freedom, our constitutional rights, the law, and union political abuse.

    Those who read these posts should understand that my efforts to highlight the problems with the union movement, as it relates to politics, is not about selling conservatism or denouncing socialism. The dialog inevitably devolves into a tit for tat over politics and governmental concepts, but that is not the core of my argument with the union. I understand the history of capitalism and the evolution of the union movement. I understand the legal foundation that allows a union to operate. I firmly believe that the union plays an important role in balancing capitalism. I also believe that both corporate and union entities need to be watched closely and held accountable for ethical behavior and must be required to work within the confines of the law.

    SCfire seems to be my primary opponent on the subject. What you'll often find is that he tries to sell his progressive, liberal / socialist ideas, or he's on the attack against conservatism. No matter what evidence is put on the table, he never seems to acknowledge the fact that union political abuse exists or it is in any way a problem.
    Given the evidence, it seems we could confront the problem in some way without the labels of conservatives or liberals. We’re talking constitutional rights of American firefighters.

    What can you say about Chicago FF, he’s the typical union member who pressures individuals to go along. It’s kind of comical to read a post explaining how conservative he is and next to have him attack me using Jack London’s “Scab.” News flash Chicago, Jack London is a self acclaimed, and well known, Socialist. In many socialist countries he is espoused as one of America’s greatest writers for that simple fact. LOL!!!

    Gonzo, you can’t help but like this guy. Congratulations on the promotion!
    You did a fine job attacking using the quotes I provided from our founding fathers. It was obvious to me that these quotes could cut both ways. I was trying to push Chicago in a direction that might be more becoming. That obviously didn’t work. I think your quote about the firehouse and sucking it up might apply to doing your job, but I don’t feel it applies to the union.

    There is a problem in the IAFF with political abuse of firefighters, abuse of constitutional rights, and in some cases a willingness to break the law in order to push the political agenda. The local union leadership often does not show a true willingness to represent their member’s will to IAFF leadership. This, as in my case, left me with little option but to quit. I will not have my money funneled into politics and political campaigns I do not support.

    Hope you all have a great Christmas or what ever you celebrate,

    God Bless and Keep you,

    Catch up with you after the holidays!
    Last edited by Nail200; 12-23-2006 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200 View Post
    Not much for running SC, just thought I'd give it a break until after Christmas. I'll leave you with this until after the holidays.
    I can't wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nail200 View Post
    The local union leadership often does not show a true willingness to represent their member’s will to IAFF leadership.
    The IAFF isn't there to represent yours or my political will in its totality. It is there to represent the POLITICAL INTERESTS OF FIREFIGHTERS as it relates to firefighter issues. These are two very different issues and it is something everyone else here understands but you.

    You claim the IAFF is on the attack against your constitutional rights yet you are willing to overlook and support the current administrations attack of our constitutional rights. I love how you cherry pick your arguments. It only ensures my belief that I am on the correct side of this argument and my speculation of your not being a union member is also correct.

    Do you have any more wise sayings?

    Merry Christmas.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-25-2006 at 09:38 AM.
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    I will not have my money funneled into politics and political campaigns I do not support.
    Then go get a job at Walmart...I'm sure they could always use another minimum wage greeter.

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