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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er

    And on narratives it's not about who has the PhD writing for them. It's about communicating the need. Saying "we're poor and we can't afford this needed equipment" does not address anything that's required yet that's the exact phrase I see year after year. And if not that phrase something close to it.

    - Brian
    But isnt that the purpose of the program? Providing the funding necessary to purchase the equipment when one is unable to acquire it on their own. I know that anyone can get on and say that they are poor, and it frustrates me the way they want the narratives written. They tell you in the PG what format to follow, but idiots like me did not understand what things like cost-benefit actually meant. I have my eyes opened to that part of it now(Thanks Kurt!!) I just wish I would have known this prior to hitting the submit application button. They need to state this information more clearly in the PG. By the way, if any seminars get close to southern PA again, could you please email me? I will pay for it on my own if it will help out our department.

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    Default DJ Question

    Are they being sent by e-mail or US mail??

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    But isnt that the purpose of the program? Providing the funding necessary to purchase the equipment when one is unable to acquire it on their own. I know that anyone can get on and say that they are poor, and it frustrates me the way they want the narratives written.
    Yes that's the purpose of the program but they want to know if it's so important to you WHY haven't YOU done it yet. That's what needs to be communicated. Not just that you're poor and that's why you can't do it. Poor is a relative term, just like rich. You have to disconnect from relative terminology and use objective wording.

    And to be honest, my physical fitness is a personal issue that affects everyone in my department. I'm getting in shape for me and my family, and it will benefit the department also. But I'm volunteering so the weight room we have at the station doesn't do anything for me since I spend enough time there already. Career, I see a purpose in them having a need for fitness equipment as part of a fitness program. Does it outweight PPE in a 30 call per year department? Yes. The risk of an LODD is greater in that 10000+ call department than a 30 call department. That's why priorities are different for different folks.

    And as my conversation with some others in email is going, lots of computer denied apps answered some other questions incorrectly resulting in a low computer score. So it's not just the narrative that needs reviewing.

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    I agree with you 100% Brian. Fortunately, we have not received our DJ yet, and I stress YET! After the submission of our grant, I spoke with Kurt and he basically informed me that we have need, but I completely messed up the cost-benefit section. I have learned a lot from you guys on here, and I do appreciate all the help you give. But I also know that I have a lot to learn. We are located in the middle of nowhere and to get one of you guys to come to our area is almost impossible because of the limited funding from our neighboring departments and ourselves to foot the bill.

    I know it is important to be physically fit, and I know there is a problem when you bend over to roll hose and it takes your breathe away. But like an idiot, after writing the previous posts, I made my trip to the fast food place to get lunch because it is that, fast!! And as you said, we spend enough time at the "hall" that the idea of a fitness program there is not logical for me. And again, that is strictly my opinion. Trust me, my wife informs me every time we have a tiff about the amount of time I spend there. I not only need to enter into a fitness program, I have to change my eating habits also.

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    We are out like many of you......received grant in 05' so we went for a truck on 06'. Even with all the proper explanations and assistance from many on this site it was to no avail. One wonders what else one can do to receive a fire vehicle. To those that of you that have succeded you have my profound respects for doing a better job than myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottm207
    King,

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I certainly won't say you're wrong for what you believe but you might want to consider the fact that 50% of the LODD are cardiac related and that statistically 75% of the Fire Service is volunteer. I don't want to re-hash the career vs. volly argument but the 75% of us that volunteer have other careers as well (and can't spend parts of our work day working out).

    10k-15k worth of fitness equipment and a fitness program in place of a payroll isn't a bad deal for those communities that can't afford paid service or for those communities that have paid service but can't afford the fitness equipment. And if one LODD is prevented, I think that makes the deal even sweeter. The NVFC and the NFFF have all made their opinions known on this topic and that's why you see that activity included. Taking care of the people that take care of us and the public, IMHO is a safety issue.

    We all have needs and an opinion on what's most important. I'm going to be putting together a draft letter that we can get out to our elected officials. I'll post it on the forums for anyone to use as I get it finished. I'll be asking the guru's for their input before it's finalized. Brian, Kurt, Diane, if you have any suggestions right now, e-mail them to me and I'll put it together.

    If we can create a large funding limit there will be less of us getting the dreaded DJ's.
    I agree alot of heart attacks are caused due to the extreme nature of our job. However a firefighter has to take some responsibility on his own to make sure he is in shape to do this job. No matter career or volley it was your decision to join.People know it's not an easy job and fitness should be their own personal goal. Too many people are riding the backs of the public and feel that because their a firefighter the public owes them that much. And in many cases this grant that should be protecting firefighters with up to date equipment is being spent to build gyms at firehouses that Gold's would be jealous of. While guys are going to jobs with old and broken equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire41108
    Got our DJ yesterday we wrote for fire gear and exhaust system
    I would not have put those two projects together. Give me a shout and I will elaborate for you.
    Kurt Bradley
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikehole25
    We are out like many of you......received grant in 05' so we went for a truck on 06'. Even with all the proper explanations and assistance from many on this site it was to no avail. One wonders what else one can do to receive a fire vehicle. To those that of you that have succeded you have my profound respects for doing a better job than myself.
    Pikehole25, email me off line. I may have something you may be very interested to know.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Yeah;
    Taking that grant writing seminar should ASSURE you of a successful grant next time.
    I might believe that were it not for the fact that we have attended grant writing seminars the last three years, taken what they have told us and compared successful grants, including narratives to our previous app.
    So, it must be something very, very miniscule that we are missing.
    It looks like it's going to take someone of Brian's caliber to find it.
    So, keep coming with those suggestions. I will guarantee 99.9% that we have already tried it.
    CR
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    Actual fire service based grant writing seminars? Or the DHS workshops? 2 hours going over ambiguously written documents and their changes from prior versions isn't quite going to prepare anyone for putting brain to paper.

    Don't get me wrong, everyone still needs to go to them because you never know what you'll learn that may help. I still do. But they are not there to teach anyone how to prepare to write a grant application. Just like firefighting, it's in the preparation not the execution. And good narratives don't mean anything if you can't design a project that will meet the computer's expectations. Project design is the lone crucial step in the process. The only one that could be more crucial is the decision to apply or not. Should be an easy one.

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    I would echo Brian's opinion here. If the grant training was the DHS workshop, not much about actual preparation of your grant applciation in 2-4 hours. Grant writing for a fire grant is a lot different than non-profit grant writing too which most other grant training schools teach predominantly. You just might be surprised. I would give Brian or myself a call and let us peruse what you have done and I would be willing to bet we spot something, you never learned elswhere. I could be wrong, it would not be the first time but, what have you got to lose?
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefSTN20
    Are they being sent by e-mail or US mail??
    I have received them in the past by US mail and e-mail. It seems that most of the people that have commented here have received them by e-mail, that's how ours arrived this year.
    Last edited by scottm207; 11-16-2006 at 05:01 PM.
    Stay Safe!

    Scott
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    Kurt is struggling right now, because the "deer" that he is thinking of is not the Dear John. Bu the hunting is turning pretty good her ein Kentucky right now Kurt.

    The class from DHS just helped enlighten us to s few oversights that we may not have picked up on otherwise. The class from Kurt is great, enough so that I should be taking it again pretty soon. I tried the cruise with Brian, but my Chief said he should take that one if anybody got to for putting up with me being on the phone all the time. He doesn't complain when I put the new equipment in the station though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman
    I sometimes believe that the numbers you reference here are exaggerated. When I look at the fire-related deaths in the fire service, a majority of them is, as you said, related to cardiovascular problems. Many of these deaths are questionable as to whether the incident they attended with the fire service contributed to the death or if the individual would have been "called home" at the same time no matter what they would have done prior. I do not see all this fitness equipment being the solution to the problem. A good diet plan would be an exellent place to start. I am finding that out the hard way. I am one of those firefighters that are OVERWEIGHT along with several others from our department. We decided to meet on Tuesday evenings to jog around our grounds to get into shape. Well we didnt even do that one evening. So I went to Sears and bought a home gym and treadmill and set it up. That lasted a month and I gained weight!! It takes discipline that I do not have to get worked back into shape. Putting $10,000 worth of fitness equipment in your hall will not get your members into shape. I can see this being used for a while and then occassionally after the new toy syndrom wears off. And you mention that you have a career and cant spend parts of the day working out, so when will you find the time to use the equipment that the grant will fund? I am not trying to criticize, but I am having similar problems and cannot see this as the solution. My problem begins with the daily "Golden Arches!!"
    ...which is exactly why AFG won't fund any fitness equipment without a complete wellness plan for the dept. This includes everything from immunizations to cardio screening.

    Every year we hear the same arguments over and over from people who don't believe that a proper wellness and fitness program (of which PT equipment is just a part of) is the single most thing that can be done to increase the safety of firefighters......regardless of the size of the dept.

    The numbers referenced are not exaggerations.....they are fact and they have been consistent year after year after year. NIOSH has no benefit in making up the numbers, and alarmingly it continues to show that poor health is the leading cause of FF injury and death. Remember it's not just cardio, but pulled muscles, slipped discs and more.

    I will always contend..... I am in a SIGNIFICANTLY more safe enviornment in the middle of a burning building with a FF who is A) not going to collapse of a heart attack and B) is able to haul my butt out if I am injured, than a guy who is 10 minutes away from a triple bypass who is dressed in brand new turnouts.....

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    Dateline: November 3 Winter Haven , FL

    Winter Have Police Chief asked to resign for sending email to staff complaining about "jelly belly" cops and asking officers to embark upon their own personal physical fitness programs. They have a new building with $25K of Nautilus equipment in the fitness room. The public here overhwehlmingly agreed that the police offciers SHOULD BE REQUIRED to be physically fit ( they did not agree the Chief should have been asked to resign).


    Moral of the Story: Watch close guys, the public eye is upon you and what happens in other places or other public safety fields is likely to roll down hill at you.
    Kurt Bradley
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    A certain sense of frustration is coming through loud and clear. Even for us. Failure sucks.
    Our apparatus grant ended in a DJ this year, the second denial in a row for apparatus. 2003 = DJ for SCBA, 2004 = success for 80k SCBA, (no real change in app by the way), 2005 = DJ for apparatus, 2006 DJ for apparatus.
    Believe me, we can use a new engine, but the computer won the chess game, I feel good about our narrative. Our computer numbers should all look good, except for call volume, which is not high. It is something we cant overcome in itself, so perhaps we will never come out ahead for apparatus in this chess game. Thoughts?
    I welcome any to review our stuff.
    Jonathan
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    I certainly didn't mean to get "off message" in this thread. Whatever your feelings are about any one of the allowed activities, you're entitled to. We need to promote this grant program and keep it going and growing.

    The fitness equipment issue struck a chord because a department in our county got a grant for equipment and developed a wellness program (i think it was a good program and award).

    The New York Post found out about it somehow and slammed the AFG program for taking money that they felt should have gone to FDNY (nothing against them either, I have several friends in that dept.) and buying exercise equipment for a podunk department. We don't need press like that.

    I think that the activities that are included in this grant program are there for pretty decent reasons. Pointing fingers at an area that you don't find important because you have not gotten the right poject at the right time funded is counter productive to the greater good. I probably didn't get that message across right the first time.
    Stay Safe!

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    "There are three kinds of people, those that learn by reading; the few that learn by observation and the ones that have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - anon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hinesfire
    A certain sense of frustration is coming through loud and clear. Even for us. Failure sucks.
    Our apparatus grant ended in a DJ this year, the second denial in a row for apparatus. 2003 = DJ for SCBA, 2004 = success for 80k SCBA, (no real change in app by the way), 2005 = DJ for apparatus, 2006 DJ for apparatus.
    Believe me, we can use a new engine, but the computer won the chess game, I feel good about our narrative. Our computer numbers should all look good, except for call volume, which is not high. It is something we cant overcome in itself, so perhaps we will never come out ahead for apparatus in this chess game. Thoughts?
    I welcome any to review our stuff.
    Jonathan
    HVFD
    Your attitude is refreshing Jonathan. I would be glad to lend a critical eye if you care to contact me. See profile for email.
    Kurt Bradley
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    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmattox
    Earl - Kurt told me about this seminar last night. I am going to try and convince my chief to send me out there. At least this way they won't think I'm trying to get a free Vegas or Orlando vacation. Little do they know, I can go to my personal Mecca, right down the road in South Bend.... How's the weather in IN in March?
    Beginning of March will likely still be chilly. Could be low 60's, if we get very, very lucky!! South Bend is 25 miles, and the ND campus is a great place to walk around (assuming that is Mecca--some folks prefer the Studebaker museum!!)

    earl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multitask
    What I find bizarre is that the DHS sponsored seminar on grant guidance for this year the presenter stated that there would be very few grants for apparatus. She told us that they were finished paying for trucks.

    The grants I have seen so far seem to be mostly for rolling stock.
    25% of the available funding, with an attempt to get the majority awarded early. Your presenter may have referring to smaller % of money, high dollar apps--which combine to make it a tougher award.

    earl

  21. #121
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    Dear John : As we have sent a huge amount of the apparatus budget to certain southern states in order to make up for fema's disaster. We will not be funding replacement of your 25 year old mini brush/attack truck.
    However we do know where you can get a really cheap deal on a few hundred thousand pounds of ice that we have stored in your state.
    Your friends at the feds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenacres2
    Beginning of March will likely still be chilly. Could be low 60's, if we get very, very lucky!! South Bend is 25 miles, and the ND campus is a great place to walk around (assuming that is Mecca--some folks prefer the Studebaker museum!!)

    earl
    ND would definitely be what I was talking about.... Here's to hoping that I can talk my company into funding my trip...

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    If you dont think that phsical fitness is one of the most, if not THE MOST, important aspects of the fire service, than you have never been in a REAL working fire. You can be the Vince Dunn of the fire service, however, if you dont have the strength or the stamina, then it doesn't matter what you know, or what you've read. Without the cardiovascular conditioning combined with some strength, your effectiveness on an AGGRESSIVE interior attack will be somewhat inneffective. And I am not talking about some room and contents that can be put out with 50 gallons of tank water. It goes for throwing ladders and opening roofs, to overhaul, to stretching lines to multiple floors. It all comes down to cardio and strength (obviously knowledge and skill is important, but without the cardio and strenght, your through).
    I guess its like fighting, you can be the toughest guy in the world, but if you are so tired that you cant raise your hands, your in trouble.
    Last edited by CTJAKE; 11-16-2006 at 11:00 PM.

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    some of you guys are talking about the narratives and where some of us go wrong. however, this weeks round of dear johns were stright from computer scoring correct? so the narratives for those who got dear johns this round didnt amount to a mound of crap...correct?

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    Not by any means. Lots of well written narratives never make it to Peer, but that just means that the project wasn't one of the highest scoring apps to get it to Peer. It could be one item that sunk you, like trying to "sneak" a TIC into an SCBA project. Sometimes PPE and SCBA are too much to ask for in some situations. It all depends on the department.

    Hence the reason we all stress the importance of proper assessments. If you don't know your true standing against national standards, and also where you are compared to the stereotypical department in your classification you'll never know what is over your limit as a project.

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