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  1. #1
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    Default Fireground Deployment

    I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

    What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

    Please shed some light on this for me

    PTB


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    Quote Originally Posted by 10EngineLt
    I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

    What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

    Please shed some light on this for me

    PTB
    I really don't think anyone operates like that. Do you have any specific examples?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Yeah - we stage on investigations, alarms, etc. - but if there's a worker I know if I'm first in engine I'm attacking on tank water, second in I'm laying a supply unless the first in has a hydrant really close, and third in stretches a back-up line.

    Like ChiFF said - do you know of someone that operates like this?
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  4. #4
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10EngineLt
    I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

    What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

    Please shed some light on this for me

    PTB

    Uh.....does your dept operate like that??????
    IACOJ Member

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    Default Fireground deployment

    Actually they do and they have for several years...It seems very inefficient and unsafe to me and many others. I can't think of any other department that operates like this. If there is I'd like to know the history behind doing things this way. Are there any publications that support this? Having only the first due engine go to work, then having the IC assign tasks as he sees fit just doesn't seem right. Critical tasks do not get done in a timely fashion, if they get done at all.

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    Default limited access streets

    The only reason for operating that way would be limited access streets such as dead end and cul de sacs. The first engine MUST leave room for the truck.

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    No, very few parts of the city are limited access. Only the newest parts have cul de sacs, very few dead ends.

    I can't agree with you more...you MUST leave room for the truck...which is a big problem with the way we deploy. By the time the IC assignes the truck, there is no room left. In fact its usually left down the block.

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    We have a neighbor with a micromanaging chief, so much so that he orders every last command and every last detail to his folks that arrive on scene, as if they're not capable of making their own decisions based on SOGs.

    Perhaps this is the case with your department?

    Honestly - if you arrive on scene in our department, and get on the radio and ask the IC, "Where do you want us?" - you're going to get reamed, unless it is an exceedingly unique situation...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    WOW!! Someone is gonna get hurt or worse. Crews should know their task functions and be allowed to complete them. I see a lot of micromanaging in my dept and some of my Batt Chiefs think the trucks should be down the street. I just shake my head!

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    Its my understanding that we used to operate with predesignated assignments. And this is a result of us implementing ICS in the early 80's. Did the old ICS ever recommend anything like this?

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    ICS certainly does advocate staging additional resources, but that is really meant for large and unweildy responses where you may have MA companies, inter-agency, or redundant units responding.

    On a two-three truck response there is little need to stage, and as mentioned, it is a little detrimental on a true worker.

    I wonder if your dept has had any incidents in the past where an automatic response has been fudged up, resulting in a delay/failure, and this was a muddled attempt to fix the problem?

    We train our guys to work both ways. If the Chief or Duty Officer makes the scene first, and the nature of the emergency is not evident (i.e. nothing showing), he may ask the units to stage, or he may give specific assignments based on the information available. Most often though, we encourage the units to place themselves accordingly for the building and standard assignments, and wait for the IC/Company Officer to determine the nature of the emergency before deploying bodies.
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  12. #12
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    In our dept., all responding units to an incident have pre-assigned tactical duty assignments and responsibilities (per SOP's), based upon the type situation at hand, i.e. SFD, MFD, high-rise, etc.

    All first alarm units will implement their respective duty assignments without needing to be spoon-fed every detail by the IC. Modifications, or adjustments to the assignments however, may be made by the IC as he sees fit, but we all have a very good idea of what our assignments will likely be before we ever arrive on the scene.

    Level II staging of units is normally used only for 2nd alarm(+) companies.

    Level II staging for first alarm companies, IMHO, would be a HUGE waste of time and resources that would have nothing but negative effects on the incident. Not to mention the added PITA it would be for the initial IC.




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    Our orders specify what every company on the first alarm is supposed to do - thats four engines, two trucks, a rescue squad and battalion chief. 90 percent of our fires can be handled with the chief saying little or nothing...it's amazing how they still manage to find so much to say.

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    Cool How we operate.........

    At both of my Departments we are going to this system..... The justification is that it allows the first onscene Engine or Chief, to perform their 360 degree check and then deploy the resources as they are needed.
    At my career Department, it works really well because of our Truck and small sized streets. We have some streets that are barely wide enough to fit 2 passenger cars side by side..... yet alone our Truck. We also have P.D.A.s that are being developed as I type this...... I was tasked with this project.
    There are numerous Departments that operate this way in So. California and it works for them. Another advantage is that it forces those Captains that get spinnin' like a top (every Department has 'em) to stop and take a deep breath......
    After working in incidents where everybody comes in at once, and having been the I.C. in this type of environment can become overwhelming very quick. All our units have to say is that they are "Onscene, staging at _______." It gives the I.C. a few seconds to think about where he wants that unit to operate. This works huge on Haz-Mat incidents.
    I encourage any Department to at least try this...... if it don't work then go back to the other way. No harm, no foul.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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  15. #15
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    We have a neighbor with a micromanaging chief, so much so that he orders every last command and every last detail to his folks that arrive on scene, as if they're not capable of making their own decisions based on SOGs.

    Perhaps this is the case with your department?
    That was going to be my guess. Sounds like someone or a couple of someones wants everyone on the shift to know that they are in charge.

    Good luck.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy
    At both of my Departments we are going to this system..... The justification is that it allows the first onscene Engine or Chief, to perform their 360 degree check and then deploy the resources as they are needed.
    At my career Department, it works really well because of our Truck and small sized streets. We have some streets that are barely wide enough to fit 2 passenger cars side by side..... yet alone our Truck. We also have P.D.A.s that are being developed as I type this...... I was tasked with this project.
    There are numerous Departments that operate this way in So. California and it works for them. Another advantage is that it forces those Captains that get spinnin' like a top (every Department has 'em) to stop and take a deep breath......
    After working in incidents where everybody comes in at once, and having been the I.C. in this type of environment can become overwhelming very quick. All our units have to say is that they are "Onscene, staging at _______." It gives the I.C. a few seconds to think about where he wants that unit to operate. This works huge on Haz-Mat incidents.
    I encourage any Department to at least try this...... if it don't work then go back to the other way. No harm, no foul.
    I guess I don't understand. Why wait to be told. There are certain critical tasks that must be done at every fire to help ensure the safety of the firefighters not to mention any civilians. As I see it every working fire requiresat least the following: an initial attack line, positive water supply, back up line, rapid intervention team, some form of ventilation (quickly), and a search. I've been to fires where some bozo of a captain has assumed the role of IC and doesn't assign a primary search until 10 minutes into the incident...by then whats the point? Everyone is staged at the plug waiting to be assigned, the initial attack line is inside getting the **** kicked out of them and asks for a back up line, the IC has to look at his sheet, see who is available, call them into the scene, they have to pull the line, mask up then advance in...not exactly an efficient process. Whats the history behind deploying this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10EngineLt
    Whats the history behind deploying this way.
    It all started when a chief had a mother who drank to excess while he was in the womb. Then at an early age he was dropped on his head, and the retardation spiraled out of control from there until it culminated with him becoming chief and setting up a "real progressive" system. Thats my guess anyway.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 11-20-2006 at 12:04 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy
    After working in incidents where everybody comes in at once, and having been the I.C. in this type of environment can become overwhelming very quick. All our units have to say is that they are "Onscene, staging at _______." It gives the I.C. a few seconds to think about where he wants that unit to operate.
    Or..... you could have rigs staffed by professionals that don't need to be told what to do and can go to work without bothering the chief at all. To each his own, but I think everyone knows which is the superior system.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Or..... you could have rigs staffed by professionals that don't need to be told what to do and can go to work without bothering the chief at all. To each his own, but I think everyone knows which is the superior system.
    I agree completely.

    Giving an accurate and effective size-up from the first arriving unit, and giving benchmark reports of progress as well as timely, accurate reporting of changing conditions is the mark of an effective CO.

    Having incoming units that know what to do, and when and where to do it without having to always be told in advance is the mark of a well trained organization.

    Giving instructions that are clear, concise and timely, and only having to give them when deviation from preset operational standards is necessary is the mark of a well trained, and effective IC.

    Of course there are exceptional circumstances that may be encountered at a scene, but for the vast majority of incidents, there is absolutely no need to waste precious time delaying the deployment of resources.




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    Cool O.k.

    Or..... you could have rigs staffed by professionals that don't need to be told what to do and can go to work without bothering the chief at all. To each his own, but I think everyone knows which is the superior system.
    Hey there,
    Um......... yeah, deep breath in............ Both of my Departments are Career/Professional Departments.........

    There is nothing wrong with having organization on the fireground. In my Departments, we have had numerous fires where what was originally thought to be burning was burning..... but so was the area directly behind it. As each personnel steps off the Engine, Truck, Rescue or whatever piece of equipment they are on, we automatically go to work.

    Lemme run this by you...... It's the middle of the night, fire in the middle house of the cul-de-sac, the first Engine pulls up and takes the #1 spot since the Truck can easily work over the Engine, no other Fire Department vehicles are able to make it down the street due to Civilian vehicles being in the way...... Do you have all the units just come on down the road and create a bigger mess? Here's what we do, the Chief or P.D. goes to the houses and has the Home Owners move the vehicles. Don't think this has happened, trust me...... it has. Under your system, the road would be so plugged-up with vehicles that it would probably take 4X as long to move all the vehicles. By staging outta the area (I'm talking usually down the road at an intersection) the first onscene C.O. can do their 360, make any adjustments that are needed and while that is being done, the Fire Attack is well underway. If another unit is needed on the "C" side of the fire for an Exposure then we are in position to adjust our response and get a unit over there.

    Hhhmmmm, the superior system........ O.K. however you feel, it really doesn't matter to me, we are still gonna run it the way we do.

    Just so that it is known, our FFs are also not just Hose Jockeys or Water Ferries, they operate as Truckies, Rescue Nerds and can multi-function with the best of 'em. We don't have Pipemen, Hosemen or whatever else they may be referred to..... We have well-rounded, very competant FFs.

    We don't have a huge Department name like others here...... Yet, we have the same result they have with fires. We make an aggressive attack, ventilate aggressively and perform all the functions the "Big Guys" do.

    Please, one system superior to another........ not buyin' it........
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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