1. #1
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    Default Can you believe this threat?

    These were statments in regards to some three perps getting shot at by the NYPD because they rammed a unmarked police car twice and attempted to run over another.

    "I am fed up. I am not asking my people to do anything passive anymore," said Brooklyn City Councilman Charles Barron. "We're going to sit here and we're going to go in there. We're going to pray. We're going to march. We're going to do all of that stuff and then we're going to sit down. And then if they don't respond to none of that, then don't ask us to ask our people to be peaceful while they are being murdered. We are not the only ones that can bleed."

    "This young man was doing the right thing. He was going to marry the mother of his children. Now she has to raise those children by herself," said Reverend Al Sharpton. "But she has a community that will stand with her and stand with these children and stand with the parents."


    What the hell is this country comming too when an elected representative (former member of the terrorist organization: Black Panthers) can make such inflamatory comments basicly calling for riots and asssaults on police officers.

    Not one thinks to question the character or actions of those perps involved. Everyone of them had a rap sheet and priors and they were in a club known for drug distribution and prostitution just hours prior to his wedding, they got involved in a fight and there was mention of getting guns(you know how every fight or "diss" is settled in the ghetto. )...these mopes are far from innocent yet are being paraded about by the media as "victims". The only victims I see are the officers who were looking to maintain law an order in my city and I can only pray for them and their families that they make it through this ordeal with these racist dopes, Barron, and Sharpton.

    This sh*t never ceases to amaze me.

    FTM-PTB

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    Yet another case of race being thrown in to try and justify the idiots in question. From interviews I've seen so far, Bloomberg is cow-towing to them.

    Its my sincere hope also for the NYPD members that they can get through this ordeal. Hopefully cooler (and more intelligent) heads will prevail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyThirteen
    Yet another case of race being thrown in to try and justify the idiots in question.

    Its my sincere hope also for the NYPD members that they can get through this ordeal. Hopefully cooler (and more intelligent) heads will prevail.
    You have no idea how upset Sharpton and Barron are that two of the Police officers involved were Black! This country is really circling the drain more and more every day.

    FTM-PTB

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    I've been watching this evolve. I'm 100% with you guys, it's a crock of crap. If a cop has a reasonable presumption that his life is in danger (being hit by a fleeing car would be just that), he and his back-up have every right to shoot. I'm sick of hearing about how 50 shots were fired. According to my math, 50 shots divided by 5 cops shooting = 10 bullets each. I don't know how many rounds their clips carry (I'd guess 10), but I see nothing wrong with emptying their gun into the car. It sounds to me like they had pretty good aim if the guy driving the car was killed and the others wounded.

    Another fine example of why these extremists (Sharpton and Barron and all the others that fit that description) and the media keep racism alive. I'm sure the same thing has happened to other races without an eye being batted.

    Any new news on the 4th guy I keep hearing about? Supposedly got out and ran?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    I'm sick of hearing about how 50 shots were fired. According to my math, 50 shots divided by 5 cops shooting = 10 bullets each. I don't know how many rounds their clips carry (I'd guess 10), but I see nothing wrong with emptying their gun into the car. It sounds to me like they had pretty good aim if the guy driving the car was killed and the others wounded.

    One of them reportedly emptied 2 magazines, firing like 31 shots.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by firenresq77
    One of them reportedly emptied 2 magazines, firing like 31 shots.......
    I will never judge what any fellow member of the "Public Safety Proffessions" does unless I was there...this is truely the sh*t hitting the fan...be it fire rolling overhead or the kind of seven seconds of mayhem these guys ran into...

    New lesson for Riker's University:

    Dont threaten someone with a firearm unless you A)have said firearm and B)are prepared to use it......


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    As a former P.O. no one can judge anyone else in these instances unless you have been there. Whether he fired 31 shots or 100 shots, you are trained to engage the target until the threat is alleviated. There are many stressors that are involved in deadly force encounters, things like auditory exclusion, slow motion timing and other visual and hearing distortions. This all can cause additional firing when other officers are firing as well.

    Charles Barron is a P.O.S. He is the first one to criticize anything. "our people". Ummm I think the victim was human and you say you want to end "police racism" however you make statements like "our people."

    NYPD is always in a no win situation. They complain they are too strict and Guiliani made a police state. He scales down the amount of officers for a Puerto Rican Day Parade, and incidents occur and what happens? The same ones complain their weren't enough officers. I'm sure Charles Barron has no problem with whatever protection he gets. As far as Al Sharpton, who can say anything about a man who is the first for a photo op and makes money off of Mr. Barron's "people" hand over fist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firenresq77
    One of them reportedly emptied 2 magazines, firing like 31 shots.......
    Reportedly means D!CK to me. When there is verifyable proof in the after action report then you may criticize it.

    We always talk about how inaccurate the media is, but we have no problem quoting them (myself included.)


    As for the race baiters, they are scum. When Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton pop their fat, greasy, little mitts into a story I just walk away.

    I can hardly wait until one or both of these buffoons shows up here in Durham, NC next year for the Duke Rape Case. Gonna be a freaking nightmare with those two morons spweing forth their own form of venumous racism.
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    Just to clear things up........ I was not bashing anyone for their actions....... I was just replying to Catch22's post about the number of shots..........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    word in NYPD circles is two shell casings from non-NYPD 9 mm's were recovered from inside perp, um I mean victim's Altima.........
    A man has to have something to believe in & I believe I'll have another beer.

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    Default use of force

    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.

    Downunder they would by in deep **** if they used a fire arm without being in direct threat from another fire arm just like any other civilised country.
    One of the local boys used his pistol to put down a kangaroo injured in a road accident. Paperwork was enough to get him from ever thinking of doing this again.

    Another mate was patrolling embassies and consulates in Canberra a couple of years ago. At the US ambasadors private residence in a rural area of Canberra the mate hears gunshots from the rear. Probably roo shooters.
    Calls for help, fits flack jacket and armed with a 9mm Glock pistol goes in search of roo shooters. Fortunately roo shooters disappear extra quick. In retrospect roo shooters were lucky US enforcement officers were not guarding the US ambassador.
    Last edited by wombat; 11-27-2006 at 10:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.
    Huh?

    What do your country's cops do when a car intentionally tries to run down a police officer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.
    So would you have rather them get killed? I guess Australia has never had an Officer have to defend themselves and kill someone.





    PS wasnt Australia founded by all criminals???
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.

    Downunder they would by in deep **** if they used a fire arm without being in direct threat from another fire arm just like any other civilised country.
    One of the local boys used his pistol to put down a kangaroo injured in a road accident. Paperwork was enough to get him from ever thinking of doing this again.
    Not for nuttin bud but keep lookin from the outside in. We got enough gutless wonders to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.

    Downunder they would by in deep **** if they used a fire arm without being in direct threat from another fire arm just like any other civilised country.
    One of the local boys used his pistol to put down a kangaroo injured in a road accident. Paperwork was enough to get him from ever thinking of doing this again.

    Another mate was patrolling embassies and consulates in Canberra a couple of years ago. At the US ambasadors private residence in a rural area of Canberra the mate hears gunshots from the rear. Probably roo shooters.
    Calls for help, fits flack jacket and armed with a 9mm Glock pistol goes in search of roo shooters. Fortunately roo shooters disappear extra quick. In retrospect roo shooters were lucky US enforcement officers were not guarding the US ambassador.
    And what are your 1300 troops doing in Iraq? Forcing Australian democracy on the good people over there??? Number one - you are a hypocrit. Number two - you come from a small, non diverse country. Don't hurt yourself trying to contemplate the problems of a much larger, more complicated society. You just end up looking like an idiot when you spout your ill-informed, small town logic about things you don't understand.
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    Default What a crock

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.

    Downunder they would by in deep **** if they used a fire arm without being in direct threat from another fire arm just like any other civilised country.
    One of the local boys used his pistol to put down a kangaroo injured in a road accident. Paperwork was enough to get him from ever thinking of doing this again.

    Another mate was patrolling embassies and consulates in Canberra a couple of years ago. At the US ambasadors private residence in a rural area of Canberra the mate hears gunshots from the rear. Probably roo shooters.
    Calls for help, fits flack jacket and armed with a 9mm Glock pistol goes in search of roo shooters. Fortunately roo shooters disappear extra quick. In retrospect roo shooters were lucky US enforcement officers were not guarding the US ambassador.
    Over the ten year period from 1984-1995, 53 people were shot to death by police in Australia. Considering 53 people is, like, half the population of Australia, that seems like the Aussies are keeping pace nicely with the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFDNJFF
    PS wasnt Australia founded by all criminals???
    If I remember world history right, it was a prison colony for the British. Close enough to being founded by criminals I guess.

    Wombat--Did you read the story or just do like the over-the-top people here do and just hear the cops shot some poor black guys? Undercover cops overheard discussions from these guys about going to get their gun from the car. One thing lead to another, the driver hit one of the cops and ran into a van twice, and subsequently drew fire from NYPD. SELF DEFENSE. What a brilliant concept. Or perhaps we should take guns from our cops and give them batons to defend themselves from people who try to kill them.

    I will agree in part to some of our society acting like it's a third world country. No respect for authority, killing innocent citizens without reason, and screaming and hollering because another someone from a particular ethnic group was shot by police (despite the fact that it may have been warranted). Oh, and the extremely biased media, don't let me forget that.

    Hopefully the NYC government doesn't cave in to these extreme wackjobs and fire these guys if it's found to be a justifiable shooting (judging from what I've seen, that's exactly what it was).

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    The main point I've heard on all the different Canadian newscasts I watched throughout the day today because of the extreme weather here in BC was "police open fire on UNARMED men", "cops kill unarmed man" etc. etc. etc.

    How one-sided is that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary
    The main point I've heard on all the different Canadian newscasts I watched throughout the day today because of the extreme weather here in BC was "police open fire on UNARMED men", "cops kill unarmed man" etc. etc. etc.

    How one-sided is that?
    Unarmed, my ***. He had a weapon. The fact it said Altima instead of Smith & Wesson means naught.
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    Default NY Post ....

    Hey Wombat, put yourself in another man's shoes before you judge him...

    10 SECONDS OF HELL IN QUEENS
    By MURRAY WEISS

    November 27, 2006 -- A doomed young groom was caught in the crossfire of an undercover cop, whose bullets went clear through his car, and confused officers who returned their own blistering barrage, sources told The Post last night.

    The blaze of gunfire lasted just 10 seconds outside the seedy Kalua Cabaret strip club in South Jamaica early Saturday. But it ended the life of 23-year-old, unarmed Queens dad Sean Bell, who was set to marry his high-school sweetheart and the mother of his two young daughters hours after his bachelor party at the club.

    Dramatic new details of the deadly mayhem include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car - his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck - screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.

    When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer - twice - the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said.

    This left the cop's backup unit - which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" - thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said.

    The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates.

    According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a Chelsea club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken hotel.

    The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens job to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.

    Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources said.

    Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over.

    The man said, " 'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.' "

    It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said.

    The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m.

    While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time.

    The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male pals and the beefy man with the gun, and four other men - with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said.

    The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources.

    Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.

    The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car.

    "It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup.

    He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of nearby Liverpool Street, and jumped in front of it.

    That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said.

    The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee.

    One of the Altima's passengers - who possibly had a gun - jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.

    Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in.

    Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover - which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car.

    "The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!' " one source said.

    The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too.

    At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets.

    Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live.

    Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops.

    He told investigators, "I got into the car, and there was all this shooting."

    It was unclear when the other four men who were originally fighting with Bell and his pals fled the scene. They were spotted leaving in a black SUV.

    Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the '90s. Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery.

    Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.

    The shooting of Bell, who was black, has ignited racial tensions in the city - even though the cops involved included two blacks, a Hispanic and two whites.

    The five cops who fired shots were put on administrative duty. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said it was the first time that any of the officers were involved in a shooting.

    Detectives Endowment Association President Michael Palladino said the cops were justified in firing off a total of 50 bullets at unarmed men because Bell was using his car as a lethal weapon.

    "Once the threat ended, so did the shooting."

    A source told The Post: "They [the cops] feel completely sad about what happened. They made a decision, and they're going to live with it."

    Mayor Bloomberg spoke to Bell's fiancée Saturday after the shooting, sources said.


    Additional reporting by Stephanie Gaskell

    murray.weiss@nypost.com
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    Default Hey Wombat...who asked for your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat
    Looking from outside USA it looks like you guys are just practising the same kind of democracy you are forcing on the good folks of Iraq or Afganistan.
    Start acting like a third world country and you will soon be one.

    Downunder they would by in deep **** if they used a fire arm without being in direct threat from another fire arm just like any other civilised country.
    One of the local boys used his pistol to put down a kangaroo injured in a road accident. Paperwork was enough to get him from ever thinking of doing this again.

    Another mate was patrolling embassies and consulates in Canberra a couple of years ago. At the US ambasadors private residence in a rural area of Canberra the mate hears gunshots from the rear. Probably roo shooters.
    Calls for help, fits flack jacket and armed with a 9mm Glock pistol goes in search of roo shooters. Fortunately roo shooters disappear extra quick. In retrospect roo shooters were lucky US enforcement officers were not guarding the US ambassador.
    Wombat, it doesn't take much courage to look in from the outside and espouse such an opinion. Until you’ve faced that threat, you don’t have the right to judge. I bet you wouldn't be so quick with your criticism if you were standing in a pub full of NYPD’s finest.

    As for Iraq, how about we start shipping all of the captured insurgents and extremist, including those at GITMO, over to your little penal colony. You can let them loose on the streets of Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Canberra. See how long it takes before they start blowing up school buses and pubs. I bet they would love to fly something into the Sydney Opera House.

    As for the third world country statement, come visit our drug infested, crime riddled inner cities where a toke from a crack pipe is valued more than a human life. Where infants lay in their own excrement day after day while a heroin addicted mother sells herself to pay for her next fix. Where police are shot, stabbed, attacked, assaulted and killed while trying to keep order. Make that statement to the wives of the two Cincinnati Cops, whose husbands, while trying to make their city a better place to live, were executed…shot in the back of the head, by a gang banger. They were ambushed and unable to protect themselves…killed in cold blood. I don’t think it is the public servants who are acting in a third world manner.

    The United States has carried the water for every industrialized nation in the world. We are the most benevolent, generous nation on the face of the earth. We have freed more people, provided more foreign aid and developed more democracies than any nation in the history of the world. Unfortunately, many times we have had to use overwhelming force to free tens of millions of people from the oppression of tyranny. I for one am getting tired of the ingratitude from those who have most benefited from our actions.

    So in keeping with the spirit of freedom of speech, I recognize your right to express an opinion concerning this matter. Fortunately, I too am afforded that same right…so take your opinion and shove it right up your cowardly little Aussie Outback rear-end.

    God Bless America!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefChip
    The United States has carried the water for every industrialized nation in the world. We are the most benevolent, generous nation on the face of the earth. We have freed more people, provided more foreign aid and developed more democracies than any nation in the history of the world. Unfortunately, many times we have had to use overwhelming force to free tens of millions of people from the oppression of tyranny. I for one am getting tired of the ingratitude from those who have most benefited from our actions.

    God Bless America!
    I once heard a story (maybe true, probably not) about a multi-national military meeting in France. At a table was representatives from various countries cussing and discussing, all in English. A French general makes an observation..."why is it anytime we have one of these meetings, we all have to speak in English to appease the Americans? Why can't they speak our language when the come to our country?"

    An old, battle-scarred American general leans over to the table and tells them, "Maybe it's because if it wasn't for us, you all would be speaking German!"

    How soon the nations we have rescued from tyranny (or prevented it before it got there) forget what their freedom cost in American lives. No offense to those Aussies who don't blow misinformed rhetoric out their butts, of course, but it seems to me that great nation would likely be speaking Japanese had we decided not to protect democracy and basic human rights, as the ellustrious wombat seems to suggest we shouldn't be doing. I see nothing wrong with our government and military protecting those who cannot protect themselves. As it seems to me, we're doing the same thing every time we go to work or make a run, helping those who cannot help themselves.

    And I'm with you, God bless America!

    Oh, firenresq77--I understand what you meant. My math was just making a point, I don't care if it was 50 or 100 shots, even if it was one officer. If it got the car stopped and he went home to his family in one piece, good for him.
    Last edited by Catch22; 11-28-2006 at 01:37 AM.

  23. #23
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    The same Socialist Ideological thinking that everyone can be talked to and appeased.

    "Oh Sir, while I realize you wish to drive over me and likey kill me, please....I emplore you not to do so. I am sure we can talk this out and smooth things over. Then we can go out for a glass of chablis."


    And if a police officer is going to swim in paperwork for discharging a weapon, this does one thing......make sure that the officer will never remove his weapon from his holster again.

    Ergo, I will remain armed myself.
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  24. #24
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    A car or other vehicle is just like any other object: It is a tool to be used in an appropriate manner, as directed by those who originally designed and manufactured it. However, when it is used as a weapon, it is considered a "deadly weapon" by most law enforcement agencies. And as a weapon, and as in any situation which creates a need to activate the Rules of Engagement because of a threat or perceived threat, the basic rule of thumb is to respond to that threat one level higher. If he comes at you with fists, respond with a club (ASP baton), if he has a club, use a gun. When a large object like a car comes into play, get a bigger gun. That being said, the perception of a threat has to be made by the receiver, and it has to be justified.

    In this case I am neither defending or criticising the actions of the LEO's, and depending on which news report you read, the turn of events seems a bit confused as to who did which first. Regarding that part, I have no comment - wasn't there, and until the After Action Report is concluded - nah, probably not even then. What I do see, is that someone tried, or was perceived to have tried to evade police officers, who were operating in the conduct of their job directives, and in so doing appears to have attempted to run over or otherwise injur the dismounted officer, and also made an apparent attempt to ram a police vehicle. Both of which would/could constitute use of a deadly weapon, in the eyes of anyone involved with law enforcement activities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    And if a police officer is going to swim in paperwork for discharging a weapon, this does one thing......make sure that the officer will never remove his weapon from his holster again.

    Ergo, I will remain armed myself.
    Having been arrested,charged and convicted of misdemeanor assault myself for aiming a shotgun at two people who tried hitting me with a claw hammer,I can relate to that.
    The judge said he wanted to make sure that I never pointed a weapon,loaded or unloaded as mine was,at anyone ever again.
    So,if I am ever faced with a decision like that again,will I freeze remembering Judge Craft's words and get killed or will I decide if I'm going to get hanged,might as well be as a goat instead of a sheep and start pulling the trigger even after my assailants change their minds about killing me and turn to run for their lives?
    Here's hoping I never again have to face that choice.

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