Condor Chassis by American LaFrance

[boog8591]

Does anyone have any experiance with or pictures of fire apparatus built on the Condor chassis (www.condorbyamericanlafrance.com) ??


My fire company will begin the process of specing a new tanker within the next year or so and this chassis looks like a possibility if they can put a big enough engine into it.

We presently have a Mack MC/Saulsbury 2500 gallon tanker which is greatly underpowered. I have been looking at the new Mack MR chassis but it still does not offer a very big engine (tops out at 325 hp peak). We are very hilly and no one puts less than 400hp in an engine, nevermind a tanker.

I have spoke with the ALF dealer and even though the specifications says the max that can go in it is a 380hp Cat C13, he says they can do bigger for emergency vehicles.

If anyone has experiance with this chassis, please reply.

Thanks !

[npfd801]

I know of at least one unit being built (perhaps complete by now) on a Condor chassis with body work not by ALF. If you're happy with ALF, great - but options may be out there to put someone else's body on the chassis, I don't know... With the departure of ALF from Freightliner, this may have changed.

Let me try and dig a little and I'll PM you if I have something more to offer.

[jfTL41]

FDNY has a spare rescue, "the Spirit of Oklahoma" on a condor chassis. Front is real tight like the MR but for a tanker might be ok.

[chiefengineer11]

Ome of our former members sells trash packers and transit mixers for a living. He tells me that the Condor is very well thought of in his business.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[HSFDChief600]

So are you going to put another 2500 gal tank on it? My department has a 2000 gal tanker on a FL70 chassis and it has the 3176 or 3126 (cant remember correct number) CAT engine 325 hp and it hauls it like there is nothing in the tank. I have a C-13 cat in my work truck and it has plenty of power and I carry alot more weight than a tanker.

[boog8591]

We will most likely go with a 3000 gallon tank on the new truck.

We have very few of those red things that stick out of the ground and need every last bit we can bring.

[skipatrol8]

Does anyone have any experiance with or pictures of fire apparatus built on the Condor chassis (www.condorbyamericanlafrance.com) ??


My fire company will begin the process of specing a new tanker within the next year or so and this chassis looks like a possibility if they can put a big enough engine into it.

We presently have a Mack MC/Saulsbury 2500 gallon tanker which is greatly underpowered. I have been looking at the new Mack MR chassis but it still does not offer a very big engine (tops out at 325 hp peak). We are very hilly and no one puts less than 400hp in an engine, nevermind a tanker.

I have spoke with the ALF dealer and even though the specifications says the max that can go in it is a 380hp Cat C13, he says they can do bigger for emergency vehicles.

If anyone has experiance with this chassis, please reply.

Thanks !

I am curious--on a concrete pumper you can get 460hp, so I assume you can get it for fire/rescue. I found the specs at this site.

http://www.allianceconcretepumps.com...wn&chassisid=1

[npfd801]

Even Mack's site shows up to 400 horse. Scroll down the page:

Mack MC product brochure

[NewJerseyFFII]

Did you and your department check the " HME " web site, Take a look at there ( SFO ) chassis cab !..

[boog8591]

Thanks for your help on this, I must have either overlooked that information on the Mack spec's or something.

I have looked at the 2dr HME and it may be an option as well.

[neiowa]

Even Mack's site shows up to 400 horse. Scroll down the page:

Mack MC product brochure

Visited Mack dealer last week. In 2008 Terrapro (Cabover) their info says max of 350hp.

Local concrete pump company (big) says they much prefer the Condor to the Mack cabover. In particular the cab.

[canuck1]

ISL 425 HP - 3000 Allison

[neiowa]

Talked to Condor guy yesterday. Can now get an ISM for FD use.

[Command6]

I was at the City Garage yesterday. They had two new Heil garbage trucks on Condor Cab/chassis. They have Cat C-11 engines in them, but it looked like a C-13 would fit

[chiefengineer11]

I was at the City Garage yesterday. They had two new Heil garbage trucks on Condor Cab/chassis. They have Cat C-11 engines in them, but it looked like a C-13 would fit

C11 and C13 are the same basic block, with different bore and stroke. So if they can't supply the C13, my guess is that the limiting factor would be the ability to cool it. That would be in terms of radiator capacity and airflow over the engine. Note also that the C11 will be discontinued if it hasn't been already.

I have a friend (former member) who sells mixers, trash packers, etc. The Condor chassis was originally designed for that type of use. It went with ALF when they were sold. He speaks very highly of the Condor. He also tells me that one of his customers is removing Allison transmissions as they fail and is retrofitting the new Caterpillar automatic transmission.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Command6]

Thanks for the info on the Cat engines.

We opened bids on a new aerial last Friday. When we began writing the specs 5 months ago, this 2007 emission was and still is a dynamic factor. Not just the FD, but the rest of the city fleet is mostly Cummins. They have proven reliable for us, and the service support is excellent. In addition, our Fleet Services has invested about 10K in Cummins computer software so we can perform many repairs in-house. So our mechanics are very familiar with that brand.

On this truck purchase, we wanted the 525hp ISX, but discovered it's not available in a custom cab. That left us with the 515 Series 60 an the Cat 525hp C-13. After comparing pros and cons, we are leaning towards the Cat.

Series 60 C-13
Proven track record in fire service Uncertain reliability
Lower compression Shorter stroke ( better acceleration)
Discontinued after 2010 Will require little mods for 2010
Possible sale to Mercedes High cost of parts
Better fuel economy Higher operational costs

To put it in the words of our Fleet Services manager, "it's a coin toss" as far as he's concerned.

I would still prefer the Cummins brand, but looking years down the road when all engines lose some of their performance, I don't feel the ISM500 has the displacement and torque to move a 70,000# platform for an extended period.
And even this engine, according to FleetOwner, "will disappear from the North American market in 2010."

Since we are looking at a late 2008 delivery date, that is an issue having a discontinued motor in a one-year-old truck.

On the transmission, I know CAT has been making transmissions for heavy equipment for years. I prefer adopting a wait-and-see attitude regarding fire service application before we jump from Allison, which has provided us with good service.

[chiefengineer11]

Here's what I'm able to pull out of my head on the subject. The ISX Cummins and CAT C15 are not available in most if not all custom fire chassis. There just isn't enough space to put them and to cool them properly. I say most, I think someone said that KME was doing some C15s, but you'd have to check with them.

The CAT C11, as said before, is either out of production or going out. I haven't heard anything about the C13 going anywhere.

Cummins has already announced that the ISM will be discontinued after 2010.

Detroit Diesel is and has been for several years owned by Daimler as is Mercedes. DD and MB are working on a common engine platform just as Volve and Mack have done. When that work is done, the Series 60 will disappear.

All of the changes appear to be driven by the 2010 emissions rules.

One thing about all of the current and past engines. There will be a great number of them in use for many years after they go out of production. As long as it is profitable for the builders to support them, they will. As that winds down, parts will be available from aftermarket sources. Older technicians will be quite capable of servicing them. Newer techs coming out of schools, maybe, maybe not.

The point is, I wouldn't be afraid of a current production engine just because it will be going out of production in a couple of years. I believe that more than adequate support will be available for as long as you have it.

All that being said, let me qualify my opinions with one caveat. The one thing that scares me about all of them is how fast will the computer/electronics packages become obsolete?

T.C., any thoughts to share here? And whatever became of birkenvogt and the guy from Las Vegas? They always contributed knowledgeable opinions.

One other item for you - I spent most of this past summer driving a demo quint for Toyne, Inc. It had an Cummins ISM 500 in it. Granted, the truck only scaled about 46,000 and change, but it performed quite respectably. All that given my bias to Caterpillar (would be Mack if you could get them).

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[Command6]

Thanks Chief