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    Default Pricing Hierarchy

    This is being loosely discussed in another thread but since I am on the committee to spec and oversee the build for a new engine, I'm wondering where the main players typically come in when it comes to price. So far we met with Marion, E-One, Seagrave and KME. Marion seems highest, E-One next, still waiting on KME and Seagrave. Any feedback?

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    Default depends

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    This is being loosely discussed in another thread but since I am on the committee to spec and oversee the build for a new engine, I'm wondering where the main players typically come in when it comes to price. So far we met with Marion, E-One, Seagrave and KME. Marion seems highest, E-One next, still waiting on KME and Seagrave. Any feedback?
    That'll depend on who's spec you put out, and how tightly it is written.

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    On ours, Marion was above Toyne but well below Seagrave. That might be due to our body design, which really is nothing exotic but isn't cookie cutter, either. I don't know where the others would have come in. In the case of Marion, we probably spoke to the same sales person. Seagrave might be the same dealership but a different person. I'm not sure where their territories split.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home.

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    based on speccing our rescue engine a few years back

    lowest to highest
    Central
    4 guys
    HME
    E-One
    Darley
    Seagrave
    Pierce

    There was about a $120,000 swing from lowest to highest

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    We specced a quint last year.

    Of the serious competitors, lowest price to highest:

    E-One
    Smeal
    ALF
    Pierce

    The price range from lowest to highest was, as best as I can remember, about $80-K.

    We also just specced a pumper but there were only two competitors, so no real pricing hierarchy to explain - one was low, one was high!

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    Smile Apparatus Price Tags

    The highest priced trucks are ( Pierce , Seagrave , E-One ) Then you have Crimson, Alf , Kme , Hme, And lowest is Rosenbauer!.. Smeal is somewere in the middle. A custom chassis pumper can start at $ 220,000 - and go up to $ 500,000 !
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 12-05-2006 at 06:25 PM.

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    To make blanket statements like this are terribly hard...

    Rosenbauer (yes, I sell it) can be at the low end of the pricing spectrum, or the high - depending on the body builder you choose and options. If I chase someone else's body spec, I may not always be on the lower end of the spread.

    I've been beat on price by KME, Alexis, ALF, etc. I've been well under E-One with a General body, so it really isn't a given what a brand will be at for pricing. I've seen Pierce swing from low bid on one aerial to almost highest on the next...

    Don't forget - if a builder is slowing down and seeing gaps in production coming up they will lower the cost to their dealer in order to keep folks working. I know this has backfired on some companies. Some companies will also make a statement by slashing a price on one or more bids in an effort to get rigs in a specific area or region. That has also happened locally, before I was even selling rigs.

    Most dealers can change the price of the rigs they sell quite a bit by deciding if they want to make some money on the potential sale to you, or a lot of money. Keep that in mind too.
    Last edited by npfd801; 12-05-2006 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling...
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    Default Exceptions

    One thing to remember here is just because a manufacturer is low bid does not mean they are close to the Spec.

    I have seen many low bids that where low because they took exception to a lot of different things in the spec.

    When looking at bids you must consider the number of exceptions that the manufacturer is asking for vs bid price!

    If you have a bid that is 50k over everybody else look at the number of exceptions the low bidders are asking for.

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    Post Big Bucks !

    I have seen a new Pierce Dash pumper delivered to a central New Jersey fire department last week at a cost of ( $ 539,000 ) and loaded with many options. What ever happened to getting a basic pumper that will get your firefighters to a fire scene and put out the flames,todays apparatus are getting out of reach for many smaller departments to afford. I can not see spending a " Half Million Dollars " for a engine !....
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 07-07-2007 at 10:19 AM.

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    When we got our truck which sounded to good to be true it was:
    ALF
    Pierce
    E-One

    If I remember correctly E-One was About 80k diff. Pierce was some what in the ball park though. We decided ALF as I stated before was to good to be true.

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    You should try Ferrara. They did my department right on a new Pumper/Tanker. Good quality apparatus too.

    http://www.ferrarafire.com/

    We also have a pierce engine, and love it. They're kind of pricey though.

    Can't beat Sutphen's service. The squad at one of my PT dept's is a Sutphen. Great truck, and great service. Still a little pricey.
    Last edited by eng19ine; 07-06-2007 at 09:58 PM.
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    Hey eng19ine,

    You ever go to Stella Blue? My cousin Peggy owns it.

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    I just finished a project on a new truck we're getting. A 2500 gallon pumper/tanker E-One on a Typhoon chassis. 1500 GPM Hale QMAX, headsets, decent options with price of all new equipment to put on it (right down to every double-female) for around $455,000. Like it was said earlier in the thread, it all boils down to how many exceptions were made in each bid. If you bid the truck out say using Pierce's specs, you will have exceptions from most others. It works that way with any bid. I really don't believe there is one truck that is just outright better than any other truck; whatever works for your department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    This is being loosely discussed in another thread but since I am on the committee to spec and oversee the build for a new engine, I'm wondering where the main players typically come in when it comes to price. So far we met with Marion, E-One, Seagrave and KME. Marion seems highest, E-One next, still waiting on KME and Seagrave. Any feedback?
    MG,

    One of the things that can be done to level the paying field, is to put out a preformance spec.

    Which means spec out a list of what you want on the apparatus, I.E.:

    Detroit 60 Series 500+ HP
    Allison 4000 EVS Transmission
    Engine Brake
    2000 GPM Hale Pump.

    You get the idea. That way no manufacturer is involed in the spec writing, which some time stops other manufacturer's from bidding. It forces the manufacturer's to "sharpen" their pencils right from the git go, because they know they have a good shot at winning the bid.

    Chief1FF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief1FF View Post
    MG,

    One of the things that can be done to level the paying field, is to put out a preformance spec.

    Which means spec out a list of what you want on the apparatus, I.E.:

    Detroit 60 Series 500+ HP
    Allison 4000 EVS Transmission
    Engine Brake
    2000 GPM Hale Pump.

    You get the idea. That way no manufacturer is involed in the spec writing, which some time stops other manufacturer's from bidding. It forces the manufacturer's to "sharpen" their pencils right from the git go, because they know they have a good shot at winning the bid.

    Chief1FF
    I think that most fire departments in my area of New Jersey " SPEC " there apparatus so only one or two manufactures bid on a truck.Most departments are loyal to a single apparatus dealer or builder so they spec there custom chassis so know other builders will try bidding after they read the specs. Like : 148" cab which only ALF builds, or stainless steel split tilt cab which only Seagrave builds etc !.....
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 07-10-2007 at 06:43 PM.

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    We actually wrote our specifications from scratch and with the help of a few good people on these boards. Even when the vendors came back with spec documents, we still used their documents to make changes to ours. We didnt just put our name on a ready made spec. Thats too easy. It went to bid with us not knowing who would win. KME won the bid, 3 others placed bids as well. No bid rigging. We needed to get the rig and all of the equipment for $400,000. We did just that.

    To get what we wanted, we explored alot of options, did alot of research and came up with minimum acceptable dimensions, power, distances etc for almost every major component. For example, we spec'd the motor to have a specific higher torque rating at a lower RPM. This allowed Cummins and Cat engines, depending on the bidder. We used a tape measure, camera and notepad to do alot of photographing, measuring and note taking. We measured many things like the maximum height the hosebed floor could be from the ground relative to our average FF's ability to reach w/o standing on the rig, maximum allowable height of ladders from ground when the rack was lowered, distance between each seat, maximum allowable step heights etc.

    Our final spec document was about 40 pages long.

    We had worked closely with 3 of the 4 vendors who placed bids. We made those guys work, and they were very professional, helpful and dilligent. We also got some great ideas from reps who didnt win the bid, that was very helpful.

    The order of pricing from the bids from highest to lowest was Marion, Elite, Seagrave, KME.

    For information on the engine, see this link.
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=90752

    Thanks to all who helped.
    Last edited by MG3610; 07-10-2007 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    I have seen a new Pierce Dash pumper delivered to a central New Jersey fire department last week at a cost of ( $ 539,000 ) and loaded with many options. What ever happened to getting a basic pumper that will get your firefighters to a fire scene and put out the flames,todays apparatus are getting out of reach for many smaller departments to afford. I can not see spending a " Half Million Dollars " for a engine !....

    You also have to keep in mind what type of apparatus this was, and how it was spec'ed. We just ordered a Pierce Velocity Rescue-Pumper, and the price was over 500K, but its not a straight pumper, it will be utilized for more than just fire supression at times.

    Over 500k for a straight pumper because of silly options and add-ons, I agree, it is exuberant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightergtp View Post
    You also have to keep in mind what type of apparatus this was, and how it was spec'ed. We just ordered a Pierce Velocity Rescue-Pumper, and the price was over 500K, but its not a straight pumper, it will be utilized for more than just fire supression at times.

    Over 500k for a straight pumper because of silly options and add-ons, I agree, it is exuberant.
    The apparatus was a Pierce Dash 8-man cab rescue-pumper from ( Raritan Twp, N.J. ) sold by Fire & Safety Services !....

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    The apparatus was a Pierce Dash 8-man cab rescue-pumper from ( Raritan Twp, N.J. ) sold by Fire & Safety Services !....

    I just looked at their website, and I can see exactly why that apparatus was priced so high.........CAFS

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightergtp View Post
    I just looked at their website, and I can see exactly why that apparatus was priced so high.........CAFS
    I think that the CAFS option is a extra $ 35,000 or more ?.. Todays fire apparatus prices have gone over the roof, about 13 years ago we purchased this 10 -person cab Seagrave rescue pumper for a cost of $ 285,000. The same pumper would go for $ 500,000 - $ 550,000 in ( 2007 ) !...
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    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 07-12-2007 at 07:08 PM.

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    Default PRices

    My FD is in the process of short listing manufacturers for a rescue pumper after my RFP closed. The cheapest was ALF but they did not come close to our requirements. However in order from cheapest to most expensive that we received were Rosenbauer, Elite, KME, Smeal, Fererra, Ft.Garry ( CDN company ), Dependable ( CDN company ), Seagrave. From lowest to highest the spread was $ 130,000.00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurphysFireKC View Post
    Hey eng19ine,

    You ever go to Stella Blue? My cousin Peggy owns it.
    Yes many times to graciously sweep young intoxicated females onto my stretcher. I have met her before. Small world.
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    Here is what may be a useful link. LA contract option pricing list from Pierce. Other brands if you search on the LA web site.


    Pierce
    http://doa.louisiana.gov/osp/contrac...istoptions.pdf

    Ferrara

    http://doa.louisiana.gov/osp/contrac...peroptions.pdf
    Last edited by neiowa; 07-19-2007 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Here is what may be a useful link. LA contract option pricing list from Pierce. Other brands if you search on the LA web site.


    Pierce
    http://doa.louisiana.gov/osp/contrac...istoptions.pdf

    Ferrara

    http://doa.louisiana.gov/osp/contrac...peroptions.pdf
    Very good information listed on apparatus options, do you have a web site with the base fire apparatus listed ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    Very good information listed on apparatus options, do you have a web site with the base fire apparatus listed ?
    I plowed around a bit and got to
    http://doa.louisiana.gov/osp/osp.htm

    Then searched on fire

    Some thing useful does come out of LA.

    HGAC also has contract pricing info listed but I've never seen option pricing there. Though many of the installed prices (for Ferrara at least) look VERY high to. But something to use for a planning tool.

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