1. #1
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    Default Bail out systems

    There has been much discussion in reference to bail out systems, since the tragic LODD's and serious injuries sustained by members of the FDNY in the Black Sunday incident in the Bronx.
    The FDNY has gone to great lengths to come up with a system to provide its members, to hopefully prevent out comes such as those that resulted in the Black Sunday incident.
    I recently had a discussion with retired FDNY Lt. Larry Cohen about bail out systems. Lt. Cohen is a certified trainer for the Gemtor harness and the Petzl EXO PSS (Personal Safety System) being used by the FDNY.
    In my discussion with Lt. Cohen I learned that you can not purchase the Petzl EXO PSS without first going through certification training.
    I think this is a great safety measure being taken on the part of Petzl to unsure that firefighters know how to properly use the Petzl EXO PSS before they are able to purchase and use the system.
    My questions to the members of this forum are, What type of bail out system do you currently use? If you are using a bail out system, is the system standard thoughout your department? And finally, Did you do any training prior to putting the system in service.
    I am currently using a Gut belt with a rope bag attached to it with 40' of rope, a mini rescue 8, and 2 carabiners. Our department does not have a standard bail out system, we have done training but nothing formal. After doing some research will be trying to get our department to invest in the Gemtor-Petzl system and the training that goes with it. The firefighter is a departments most important tool, I think the investment is worth it. If departments would put less bells and whistles on the apparatus and invest more in firefighter training and safety maybe we could reduce deaths and injuries.
    I feel that a standard bail out system should be a part of our standard issued equipment as well as the training that goes with it.
    I would encourage anyone looking for training and information about bail out systems to contact Larry Cohen at www.firegroundtech.com

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    I keep it simple. All I carry is 30 ft of 8mm line with a large carabiners on one end. I pack it into a ems glove and put it in my right pant pocket. I took a ff survival class out side of the dept before buying it for my self.

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    Lot of stuff can be learned from Larry and his team.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    30 feet of rope, figure 8 in one end, for looping over a haligan or pick head.
    "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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    We just retrofitted the 50' FFRED bail out system on all of our Draegar 4500 Air Boss packs, and all new units will be spec'd with that option from Draegar. The old 2216 packs will not be upgraded as they are due for retirement in the next year or two. Currently, the old packs are all in second-line service anyway.

    http://www.ritrescuesystems.com/faqs.php

    We have trained all ff's on basic rapelling through the normal training program, and that same program does cover the basics of bail outs, but specific training and certification on the FFRED system will take place over the winter months.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    We carry rope bags with 2 caribiners on the rope, I have mine attached to my gear so if I need to use it all I have to do is take it out of my pocket and drop it out the window, and tie off on a tool or something and out the window you go. As I stated before a while ago, we go to the Fire House Expo and take a class and if you have a chance take FF SURVIVAL taught by John Salka and his buddies or what not, the class is excellent and is worth attending, In that class you'll learn how to do a rope bailout,ladder bailout, room orientation (confidence builder) wall breach It's a good class and if you have any idea they will listen to you and talk about it. BE SAFE!!

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    I put together a system that is damn near identical to the FDNY's. The only difference is my rope bag does not have a hook holder it just sits on top of the rope, and I am using a Petzl GriGri descender instead of the EXO. The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender. If I only fray a rope after a couple thousand bailouts, I am fine with that.

    All items can be bought online. Most of mine came from www.allhandsfire.com

    A lot of people do not have time or money to go get certified with the EXO system. Like everything esle train with it before you put it in service though.
    Last edited by cdemarse; 12-11-2006 at 06:42 PM.
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    We have it, and love it. RIT Rescue

    I also carry 50ft of Kevlar rope with 2 large caribiners, one on each end in my coat pocket.

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    This might be better for a separate topic, but what are the advantages to a descender in this application?

    I've used figure 8's and found them to be slow compared to a single or double wrap on a D ring. Basically, I'm just wondering if they're needed for self rescue applications.
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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    IMO the biggest advantage to the GriGri descender is the fact that I dont have to have total rope control when I bail out the window. The GriGri has a safety on it so it there is a sudden shock it stops rope travel.

    Its very simple to bail out with the FDNY system. You grab your Crosby hook, cup the hook around the window frame and get out, Descender will lock all you have to do now is reach up and pull the descent lever to the speed you want.

    This is a GriGri http://www.allhandsfire.com/page/AHF...ponent/PTZ-D14

    And this is general info and a video of the System in operation.
    Right below the first paragraph is the video.

    http://www.allhandsfire.com/exo.html
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    now I get it. I was picturing something completely different.
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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    I have appx 40 foot of 8mm line with a 'beaner on each end. I also have a figure eight on one end, but if it really came down to it, I'd probably skip using the figure eight and use the airpack slide method instead.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer343

    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdemarse
    The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender.
    It looks like the GriGri is made for 10/11mm climbing rope, while the EXO comes with slimmer 7mm. At least based on the link. The EXO (or homebuilt GriGri variety) looks pretty good though. Doesn't it require a Gemtor that isn't included/shown?

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    7.5mm rope is fine on the GriGri.

    The harness is defiantly the way to go but I guess not necessary.
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    Default Petzl EXO corrections!

    Quote Originally Posted by cdemarse
    I put together a system that is damn near identical to the FDNY's. The only difference is my rope bag does not have a hook holder it just sits on top of the rope, and I am using a Petzl GriGri descender instead of the EXO. The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender. If I only fray a rope after a couple thousand bailouts, I am fine with that.

    All items can be bought online. Most of mine came from www.allhandsfire.com

    A lot of people do not have time or money to go get certified with the EXO system. Like everything esle train with it before you put it in service though.

    Curt, you are absolutely wrong in your post and with your incorrect information, you are going to get someone hurt! " Damn near identical" as you put it means that the EXO is clearly not the Grigri! The retrofits that you mention are NOT the only changes Petzl has made to the Grigri. Let me straighten all this out so NO one follows your wrongful statements. The Petzl Grigri is a civilian version of the EXO. This means it is NOT NFPA approved for firefighter rescue or bail out. So from a liabilty standpoint you have made a horrible mistake in your statements. You also fail to mention that the Grigri operates with 10.5 mm rope and not the 7.5 mm that the EXO uses! Using the smaller diameter rope will cause the Grigri to potentially NOT lock up on a descent causing injury or fatality to the firefighter. Additionally FDNY did not test the Grigri to the significance you mention. The EXO was derived from the Grigri and then tested thousands of times. To correct you AGAIN, the rope did NOT fray, the rope jammed between the EXO plate and the actuating cam. This was caused by severe wear on the device after excessive slides and also the rope diameter played an issue in the incident! The technora rope is extremely resistant to heat and abrasiveness. The eyelet was in fact added on to the EXO to help guide the rope into the cam! Other points you failed to mention are: the accelerator handle was changed from plastic to aluminum and made shorter. The cam plate where the rope pinches was beefed up to handle impact loads better and to enhance breaking. The cam on the Grigri is spring loaded where the EXO has no spring loaded tension on the cam where by only applying 1-2 lbs of force, the cam will properly activate and stop a fall. This forum is read by alot of people and making suggestions of using anything other than NFPA approved devices is doing an injustice to the fire service and the brothers and sisters. No matter what device or equipment is bought, training has to be a priority on the proper techniques and deployment procedures of any device. To all readers: do your research on the products you are interested in, and above all make sure you get the proper professional training from someone who knows what they are talking about! be safe......

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    Default EXO rope

    Quote Originally Posted by cdemarse
    7.5mm rope is fine on the GriGri.

    The harness is defiantly the way to go but I guess not necessary.

    THE PETZL GRIGRI IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TO BE USED FOR FIRE SERVICE RESCUE, IT IS ALSO NOT NFPA APPROVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND DO NOT, DO NOT USE 7.5MM ROPE WITH THE GRIGRI! ONLY 10.5MM!!!!!!!! BAD INFO GOES ALONG WAY!!!

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    Obviously I have been given the wrong info and I stand corrected on what has been changed on the EXO. I cannot delete my posts. If some could report them stating it is the incorrect info and ask for them to be deleted.

    On a side note all components of the system I put together, I have personally tested numerous times without failure or problems.
    Last edited by cdemarse; 12-14-2006 at 07:51 PM.
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    This is a great discussion. Bailout equipment really kicked in heavy this year in the fire service. It was a big buzz at the trade shows earlier this year. Interested in a "escape / bailout bags" ? Just know the difference between "kits" and "systems".

    * Kits are usually a group of componenets, some maybe NFPA certified and some may not be, but are all thrown together in a bag. They do not meet any standards.
    * Systems are comprised of components that, all together, are tested as a complete system and are "certified" to NFPA standards.

    Now... different trainers are teaching different things. I have attended some training that teaches the "rope and a carabiner" method, and for some that may work. It seems (and what I use) that certified systems with the class-2 Gemtor harness are the best and the safest solution out there. Things may change and advance, but the RIT Rescue & Escape Systems units and the Petzl EXO with a class-2 harness are the real deal. I've used both and was very pleased.

    As far as training and equipment goes, I contacted the guys at All Hands Fire Equipment ( www.allhandsfire.com ) and they were a tremendous help and provide discounts for guys buying stuff out of their own pockets (like me). The guys at RIT ( www.ritrescuesystems.com ) are also very helpful - Dave and Chris.

    I hope that this helps. Stay safe boys and girls..............

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    Default Petzl EXO Personal Escape System

    From: Steve Alsup, Petzl Northeast Technical Sales Representative - Work & Rescue Division:

    The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is the only device marketed by Petzl as such. The EXO Personal Escape System has been extensivley tested and meets NFPA 1983 2006 standard as a Personal Escape System.

    While the Grigri provided a strong foundation for design of the EXO, The Grigri is NOT INTENDED to be part of a Firefighter Personal Escape System. Also, the Grigri is designed for ropes between 10 and 11mm in diameter.

    The EXO should be available in early 2007. If you have any questions regarding the EXO or any other Petzl product, please email me at petzl@comcast.net

    As with any life safety equipment, please be 100% sure you are using the equipment properly and according to the manufacturer directions. If you are unsure about the specifications or use of any equipment, please seek training from a qualified training organization.

    Activities involving the use of the Grigri or EXO are inherently dangerous. You are responsible for your own actions and decisions.
    Before using Grigri or EXO, you must :
    - Read and understand the Product Information.
    - Become acquainted with the product’s capabilities and limitations.
    - Understand and accept the risks involved.
    Additionally, you should get qualified instruction in its proper use.
    FAILURE TO HEED ANY OF THESE WARNINGS MAY RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH.

    GRIGRI NOTICE>>>>>>>>>>

    Grigri Self-Braking Belay Device

    It has come to my attention that there is interest in using the Petzl GriGri as a firefighter emergency bail out descent control device. The GriGri is NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH 7.5 or 8mm ROPE. For your information, the GriGri is NOT certified under the NFPA standards as a firefighter personal escape system. The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is NFPA certified and is the only Petzl product marketed as such. Please spread this correct information to your customers.

    For clarification and information:

    The Petzl GriGri Self Braking Belay Device is to be used in conjunction with ropes of diameters from 10mm to 11mm.


    Technical Notice: http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices...I_D14601-I.pdf

    GRIGRI®
    Self-braking belay device
    Device for belaying a leader or a second and for single rope descents.
    • Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall.
    • Usage is similar to that of conventional belay devices:
    o giving/taking slack is done by using both hands to slide the rope through the device,
    o falls are held by holding the free end of the rope,
    o for lowering and rappelling, the rate of descent is controlled by the hand holding the free end of the rope (the rope is released with the handle).
    Certification
    CE
    Technical specifications
    For ropes of diameters from 10 to 11 mm.
    225 g.

    Steve Alsup
    Northeast Representative
    Petzl America
    Work & Rescue Division
    (877) 807-3805 ext. 7161, toll-free
    petzl@comcast.net
    www.petzl.com

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salsup View Post
    From: Steve Alsup, Petzl Northeast Technical Sales Representative - Work & Rescue Division:

    The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is the only device marketed by Petzl as such. The EXO Personal Escape System has been extensivley tested and meets NFPA 1983 2006 standard as a Personal Escape System.

    While the Grigri provided a strong foundation for design of the EXO, The Grigri is NOT INTENDED to be part of a Firefighter Personal Escape System. Also, the Grigri is designed for ropes between 10 and 11mm in diameter.

    The EXO should be available in early 2007. If you have any questions regarding the EXO or any other Petzl product, please email me at petzl@comcast.net

    As with any life safety equipment, please be 100% sure you are using the equipment properly and according to the manufacturer directions. If you are unsure about the specifications or use of any equipment, please seek training from a qualified training organization.

    Activities involving the use of the Grigri or EXO are inherently dangerous. You are responsible for your own actions and decisions.
    Before using Grigri or EXO, you must :
    - Read and understand the Product Information.
    - Become acquainted with the product’s capabilities and limitations.
    - Understand and accept the risks involved.
    Additionally, you should get qualified instruction in its proper use.
    FAILURE TO HEED ANY OF THESE WARNINGS MAY RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH.

    GRIGRI NOTICE>>>>>>>>>>

    Grigri Self-Braking Belay Device

    It has come to my attention that there is interest in using the Petzl GriGri as a firefighter emergency bail out descent control device. The GriGri is NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH 7.5 or 8mm ROPE. For your information, the GriGri is NOT certified under the NFPA standards as a firefighter personal escape system. The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is NFPA certified and is the only Petzl product marketed as such. Please spread this correct information to your customers.

    For clarification and information:

    The Petzl GriGri Self Braking Belay Device is to be used in conjunction with ropes of diameters from 10mm to 11mm.


    Technical Notice: http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices...I_D14601-I.pdf

    GRIGRI®
    Self-braking belay device
    Device for belaying a leader or a second and for single rope descents.
    • Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall.
    • Usage is similar to that of conventional belay devices:
    o giving/taking slack is done by using both hands to slide the rope through the device,
    o falls are held by holding the free end of the rope,
    o for lowering and rappelling, the rate of descent is controlled by the hand holding the free end of the rope (the rope is released with the handle).
    Certification
    CE
    Technical specifications
    For ropes of diameters from 10 to 11 mm.
    225 g.

    Steve Alsup
    Northeast Representative
    Petzl America
    Work & Rescue Division
    (877) 807-3805 ext. 7161, toll-free
    petzl@comcast.net
    www.petzl.com
    Steve Thanks for the info and I hear where you are coming from with the safety points.

    I understand that the GriGri is not NFPA compliant but, I am making due with what I have available. Most tools/items in the fire service did not start out designed for firefighters, only after that item was widely used did they get tweaked(redesigned) and become NFPA compliant. I have switched my rope to 10mm NFPA compliant rope as per the specs for the GriGri.

    Hell its not that I do not want to use/purchase the EXO, I would buy one immediately, but that is not an option yet. I personally would rather have a non-NFPA compliant GriGri for my personal bail-out system than nothing at all. Its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

    You say that the EXO should be available in early 2007. My question is
    Available in the PSS kit or available for EXO purchase only?

    Again thank you for posting in this thread with specs, info, and safety precaution.

    Curt
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
    Always Remember *343*

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cdemarse View Post
    Steve Thanks for the info and I hear where you are coming from with the safety points.

    I understand that the GriGri is not NFPA compliant but, I am making due with what I have available. Most tools/items in the fire service did not start out designed for firefighters, only after that item was widely used did they get tweaked(redesigned) and become NFPA compliant. I have switched my rope to 10mm NFPA compliant rope as per the specs for the GriGri.

    Hell its not that I do not want to use/purchase the EXO, I would buy one immediately, but that is not an option yet. I personally would rather have a non-NFPA compliant GriGri for my personal bail-out system than nothing at all. Its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

    You say that the EXO should be available in early 2007. My question is
    Available in the PSS kit or available for EXO purchase only?

    Again thank you for posting in this thread with specs, info, and safety precaution.

    Curt
    The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireground1 View Post
    The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....
    Gotcha
    Thanks
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
    Always Remember *343*

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    Are the bags that are part of the above Kit the same bags that we were issued with the PSS or are they something more usable? The system is good but the bag is horrendous (at best), like having a lunch box strapped to your hip.

    While Petzl says "do not use..." members of this board, and loads of others have used this device successfully and safely which means to me that it works (I however am not a corporate liabity specialist nor a salesperson for the corporation or a company affiliated with said corporation). Petzl says "it is not intended for..." well, do you think the folks at Scott are going to tell you it's ok to use an scba for an anchor, or the folks at firehooks come out and say "jamb my halligan into the corner of the window and go..."

    There are very few things that we use in the fire service that were designed and produced for the fire service, firefighters saw things from other industries and adapted them for firefighting, that is how the new petzl device came about too.

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    Default Bailing Out

    I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

    After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

    We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

    I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

    Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?

  25. #25
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    Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

    IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?

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