O-fers

[Chief310]

Yes, once again we got the dreaded "Dear John". I was just wondering how many other O-fer's there are out there. So far, we're 0 for 5 (didn't apply the first year). Is anybody out there actually 0 for 6?

[Heretic]

0 for 5 here as well, as of today. 0 for 4 for the AFG, 0 for 1 on the FP&S.

This is the farthest we've ever made it, however. A minor tweaking, then, if the AFG is till around next year, hopefully we can score.

[Edmeston2]

0 for 6 here. I have done the last four, made it later in the process last year than this year. Can't get discouraged though have to keep trying to see what we can fine tune. Time to stop checking for 1099's and see samples of successful PPEs to improve our chances.

[Edmeston2]

0 for 6 here. I have done the last four, made it later in the process last year than this year. Can't get discouraged though have to keep trying to see what we can fine tune. Time to stop checking for 1099's and see samples of successful PPEs to improve our chances.

[kd7fds]

0 for 5 on AFG
0 for 2 on FP&S

We have big hopes for this years FP&S. I think we did a good risk assessment and have a detailed plan for how we are going to address a major issue.

Our main problem is we have never made it to peer review. Always get shot down at the computer.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Not making Peer means your stats don't support the project. Whether that's because it's a high cost with low population or call volume numbers, or there are too many requests in the list no one knows until it's checked. Vehicles are a different animal, that's just plain competition. But rarely will a PPE app only requesting structural PPE not make Peer. I have one, but in 2005 they had no structure fire calls, and only 10 total. Numbers don't lie, they have a need, but not a statistical need compared to everyone else, namely anyone with more than 20 calls.

There's plenty of free, no obligation help out there. I work with the largest equipment vendor in the country, Kurt's over there at Chief doing the same. If you don't like either of us I have a list of people that aren't free but will do the right thing and won't overcharge. Alana being one of them of course, but there are more out there. Just have to watch out for the snake oil dealers that are trying to rip you off, ie anything on a % basis or involves a "," in the fee.

The first step is going to get help from someone that has been successful, whether it's one of us or even a mutual aid department or someone on these forums willing to share. Everyone else is getting this help, don't go it alone if you don't have to.

[Capt7215]

Just got the DJ yesterday...0 for 4.

The e-mail said we made it to peer review but they could not see how new SCBA would "benefit the daily operations" of our department

Now I know there are plenty of departments in my area that have gotten SCBA and other equipment that are not used on a daily basis...still scratching my head over this

[kfed]

Not making Peer means your stats don't support the project. Whether that's because it's a high cost with low population or call volume numbers, or there are too many requests in the list no one knows until it's checked. Vehicles are a different animal, that's just plain competition. But rarely will a PPE app only requesting structural PPE not make Peer. I have one, but in 2005 they had no structure fire calls, and only 10 total. Numbers don't lie, they have a need, but not a statistical need compared to everyone else, namely anyone with more than 20 calls.

There's plenty of free, no obligation help out there. I work with the largest equipment vendor in the country, Kurt's over there at Chief doing the same. If you don't like either of us I have a list of people that aren't free but will do the right thing and won't overcharge. Alana being one of them of course, but there are more out there. Just have to watch out for the snake oil dealers that are trying to rip you off, ie anything on a % basis or involves a "," in the fee.

The first step is going to get help from someone that has been successful, whether it's one of us or even a mutual aid department or someone on these forums willing to share. Everyone else is getting this help, don't go it alone if you don't have to.

Yes, I agree! I am concerned as this is the first year our rural department ( pop. <10,000) I can remember where so far , knock on wood, we haven't had even ONE full working structure fire, well I take that back, the meat packing plant outbuilding...but no entry team. We also didn't have the typical dry spring/summer here in colorado and extreme drought conditions so the wildfire numbers are way down as well for 2006. I will wrap up our first ever year of reporting to NFIRS, it looks like we might as well continue because many of the state funded grants anymore want to see NFIRS.The NFIRS data is supporting to some degree our reported numbers from the grant award, but it has been a slow year so far. I think it IS so important to sit down with all key players and get as close to the real numbers you can get, population, call volume, etc. I had people who weren't even familiar with fire service review the narrative to see if they understood what I was asking. Also asked a local person who has gotten several grants for low-income housing to help us; this is what seems to have gotten us past the computer scoring the past 2 years, we used to get bumped out right away. You might luck out one year with guesswork numbers but it'll catch up. We are 1 for 5 AFG, 0 for 3 FP & S (I think). hoping for 2 for 6 on AFG, no AFG 2006 DJ....yet.

[Bones42]

We are 0 fer.....

Have not heard anything yet this year, which is further along than we have ever been before. I'm still not excited.

We've applied each year and I think 1 time made it to peer review.

[ktb9780]

Folks as Brian said, a little education can go a long way towards getting that coveted award. Both of us have quite few seminars on the books all the way out till opening day of 07 AFG. You can go it alone, learning via the school of hard knocks (AKA the dreaded DJ) or get on the fast track by attending an educational seminar on these grants. Lean from the people who deal with these grants for a living and have helped many. Now is the time to get in there and find out what the others have learned and get your name on that award list.

[WebFire]

Research and read! Read the AFG Program Guidance and understand it. Then create your narrative addressing what it asks for. Read and study other successful apps. Do research on your project and give numbers to support your need, not just that you need it and are poor. Everyone else is too.

I am 3 for 4 and the only reason we didn't get it last year was because we still had the previous one open. They have ranged from hose and nozzles to station generator to turnout gear.

Honestly I don't think it is hard, you just have to do it right. I am willing to share my narratives if it will help anyone.

[Chief310]

You can go it alone, learning via the school of hard knocks (AKA the dreaded DJ) or get on the fast track by attending an educational seminar on these grants.

If DJ's make you smarter, just call me Einstein.

I just heard the regional grant that might have benefitted our department also got the raspberry. A question for the 0-fer rules committee: Does that count towards our 0-fer total? If it does, we're 0-fer 7.

[ktb9780]

If DJ's make you smarter, just call me Einstein.

I just heard the regional grant that might have benefitted our department also got the respberry. A question for the 0-fer rules committee: Does that count towards our 0-fer total? If it does, we're 0-fer 7.

Well for the first 4-5 years I wrote grants, that was my only teacher. The DJ told me I had done something worng and then I had to figure out what it was I was doing wrong.

[Bones42]

Funny how when you mention being 0-fer, all the grant guru's start telling you to go to seminars and learn from them. I always thought there was no way to cheat the computer scored part....am I wrong?


Narratives don't mean CRAP if you don't get past the computer scoring. And isn't this about writing a grant for WHAT YOU NEED, not what will give you the best chance of winning? (oh wait, that's my flawed belief in this gift program).

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

There isn't. But so far I've heard from a lot of 0-fers saying they're not getting past the computer on their SCBA apps. Then I find radios, TICs, and other items in the application, so it's not an SCBA app, it's a laundry list just like DHS says won't work.

And there is no way to 'cheat' the computer, but the way to 'beat' the computer is make sure you're asking for the ONE thing that you need. And if that means SCBA one year and PPE the next, that's the way it has to be. And if you do that and still don't make it past the computer then it is something else in the numbers. Like the one department I wrote for PPE to replace 25 year old set. They ran 10 calls in 2005, 7 EMS and 3 brush fires. 0 structural fires, so they don't have as big of a need for structural PPE compared to someone running 10 structure fires. So even with only asking for 1 project won't get real far if the numbers don't support the need.

And it's about asking for what you NEED MOST compared to the national standards and what we (the fire service) said we need in the surveys. So if you can buy PPE or SCBA and apply to the grants for one of them, why ask for SCBA (more expensive, less chance of success) when PPE is the top priority and has a better chance of picking up the award?

Didn't say anyone had to pay to go to a seminar to get help either. I said either go to the free help outlets or go to A seminar, not MY seminar. Kurt and I, along with the others that get compensation for doing this are 'competitors'. But I'd rather have someone go to his and find out what they can improve on than sit at home and do nothing. So let's not be putting words in people's mouths.

[ktb9780]

I might add a couple of things here that perhaps you are not considering bones42. I cannot speak for Brian but, my seminars do not teach you strictly about grants but also about proper financial strategy for your department. Grants will never resolve all of your problems in a department but, they can certainly alleviate many problems; if used correctly and strategically.

That entails knowing how to set up your budget, knowing what does and does not get funded on grants, proper fundraising and proper investments or usage of your exisiting budget dollars.

There are many variables involved in the computer scoring and having some knowledge about what influences those variables can and does make a difference in many cases. I will grant you that sometimes there is absolutely nothing you can do about your numbers but I, and I am sure Brian, also frequently find that departments sometimes take a haphazard approach to properly answering the questions or supplying the requested infromation. They seem to view it as unimportant or irrelevant to the process because they do not understand the dynamics of the program itself.

You just might be surprised at what may be wrong with your applicaton. Now I said might be surprised. Why don't you get with one of us and let us look and see if we can spot something that you are doing wrong?

[Bones42]

Didn't say anyone had to pay to go to a seminar to get help either. I said either go to the free help outlets or go to A seminar, not MY seminar. Kurt and I, along with the others that get compensation for doing this are 'competitors'. But I'd rather have someone go to his and find out what they can improve on than sit at home and do nothing. So let's not be putting words in people's mouths.

Whoa! Never said anything about "pay" either, so don't put words in my mouth either.

Believe me, you guys have offered loads of advice, I'm willing to say very good advice. But the numbers aren't supposed to be "fudged" so for some reason, the computers keep pushing them out. It'd be nice to even know why.

And I understand your points of applying for things that don't jive, but I know a department that received SCBA's and had that whopping 1 structure fire per year average. These computer scores just don't make sense.

[Greenacres2]

I know i've said this before, but...don't confuse "grant writing" with "narrative writing".

Bones--you are right, the narrative doesn't mean anything if you don't get it read. The Gurus (or should we refer to them as the Three Wise Persons at this time of year??) teach the full picture, not just how to write a narrative. Needs analysis, budget, funding, PG reading, development, narrative, bidding, acquisition, close-out--that's "grant writing".

earl (not a Guru, but i drove past a Holiday Inn Express yesterday)

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

So we'll call it even and stopped speaking for each other.

Anywho, I hear lots of 'they only run 1 fire' stuff too. I actually heard that from someone after getting denied about a neighboring department, and I actually worked the neighboring department's app at a later date and they had reported 30. Now still not a huge number, but it's the little perceptions that sometimes make us biased when writing apps and thinking about what other people have done, and comparing them too closely to our situation. I'm not saying it's not good to check out who has been awarded for what and what their entire situation was that maybe helped them over another app. I've been doing that since denials came out. One comp DJ on a midwest department I attribute to 10 fire related calls, 3 structure, 7 brush. Another one I wrote awarded 1st round had 14 structures and 15 brush. Budget average within $2000 of each other, same # of FFs, similar district sizes etc, etc.

Really doesn't mean much going into the next application other than to temper expectations. Since the players in the game change every year, there's no real way to predict who makes computer and who doesn't. So it's mainly about picking the highest probability and running with it. Some departments have the numbers to make it to Peer every year. Others it will be a long shot. Just the name of the game.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Who you calling a wise... never mind, cause that's true anyway. Grandpop always said better to be a wise ***** than a dumb bunny.

Yay for me, I'm staying at a Holiday Inn Express this weekend in KC. I wonder if I'll be able to understand Al Gore's fuzzy math by Sunday...